Peanut Gallery-Formal Debate-Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone...

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Topic: Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone fulfills the details of its prophecy.

Formal Debate is located here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

First post is up!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

These guys are wasting no time...
Second post is up; link to first and second posts: #2 #3 .

 

[pat34lee]

Only one major problem that I see with the first post. He spends most of it discussing Isaiah 49, when the debate is only on chapters 52-53.

 

[AbbaLove]

yonah_mishael's opening statement with respect to his interpretation of Isaiah 53:1-12 is based on Isaiah 1:5-9. He begins the conclusion to his intro with the following statement.

We thus understand that “sickness,” “beating” and the like is a metaphor for desolation of the land. When it says that the “servant” (identified throughout the prophecy of Isaiah as Israel) was beaten, disfigured, abandoned, abused and forsaken, we are to understand that this is speaking of the abandonment of the land and the dissolution of the people who had inhabited it.

 

[pat34lee]

As with Pshun's, Yonah's opening statement brings up a different chapter in Isaiah, which has no bearing on the debate. At various times, Isaiah is talking about 3 different groups: the Messiah, Israel, and the elect of Israel. Showing where he speaks of one does not disprove that other verses refer to another.

I am waiting to see where this goes, as I see no logic behind the assertion that the portion of Isaiah in question pertains to any group. It is all in singular (individual), not singular (group), and Israel is specified in the verses as an object, not the subject.

 

[pat34lee]

Did Yonah give up on this debate, is his post being held, or something else?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Another post is up! #5

 

[AbbaLove]

This conciliatory formal debate has brought again to mind Paul’s anguish over Israel (Romans 9:1-5 CJB)

I am speaking the truth — as one who belongs to the Messiah, I do not lie; and also bearing witness is my conscience, governed by the Ruach HaKodesh: my grief is so great, the pain in my heart so constant, that I could wish myself actually under God’s curse and separated from the Messiah, if it would help my brothers, my own flesh and blood, the people of Isra’el! They were made God’s children, the Sh’khinah has been with them, the covenants are theirs, likewise the giving of the Torah, the Temple service and the promises; the Patriarchs are theirs; and from them, as far as his physical descent is concerned, came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

pshun2404 has posted a reply here: #8

 

[Tishri1]

I have soooooo enjoyed this debate and believe both men are beginning a very special "gentleman's club" here in our midst I love this forum!

 

[Truthfrees]

I'm interested in this debate. http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Yeshua is the Messiah.

And what Paul will say to address their concerns.

I appreciate how civil it is.

Thanks to Tishri1 and MarkRohfrietsch for advertising it.

I also appreciate the position Yonah is articulating.

I'm very interested in hearing him explain why our Jewish brothers are prone to NOT see the suffering Messiah in Isaiah 53.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm interested in this debate. http://www.christianforums.com/t7825104/#post65712909

I want to understand why our Jewish brothers DON'T see the LORD Y’shua is the Messiah.

And what Paul will say to address their concerns.

I appreciate how civil it is.

Thanks to Tishri1 and MarkRohfrietsch for advertising it.

Thanks for your kind words; I will ask in the MJ forum to see if someone could come here to answer your question.

 

[Truthfrees]

Thanks for your kind words; I will ask in the MJ forum to see if someone could come here to answer your question.

Thank you.

Much appreciated.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

..

 

[pat34lee]

Short note on Yonah's second reply (third post).

there is a distinction at every point between the righteous of Israel and those who had sinned. Whereas we might interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to the people of Israel, we must always remember that it is the righteous among the people who suffer because of the sins of the unrighteous among the people. Then again, I truly think the servant in this passage needs to be interpreted not only as the righteous but as the land itself,

Just a look at 53:6 should dispel the notion of any of Israel (or anywhere) counting as righteous enough to save others.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
​

Verses 10-11 go on to say that his soul was made an offering for sin, not his own, but for others. Again, we cannot even justify or bear the iniquities of our own souls.

Psalm 14
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


Isaiah 64
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
​

 

[AbbaLove]

It's Yonah's opinion that, Isaiah 53: 1-12 needs to be “interrupted” according to what one “truly thinks” ... the wide world of religious indoctrination of which none are exempt.

Then again, I truly think the servant in this passage needs to be interpreted not only as the righteous but as the land itself,

What is the reasoning behind why the subjective pronoun “he” is not used when referring to the people of Israel or the land itself?

Isaiah 51:18 (CJB)
There is no one to guide her among all the sons she has borne. Not one of all the children she raised is taking her by the hand.

Isaiah 54:1-3 (Israel will be restored like a barren woman who bears many children)
Isaiah 54:4-6 (Israel will be restored like a widow who is rescued from her reproach)

Jeremiah 3:9 (CJB)
The ease with which Isra’el prostituted herself defiled the land, as she committed adultery with stones and with logs.

Amos 5:2 (CJB)
The virgin of Isra’el has fallen; she will not rise again. She lies abandoned on her own soil with no one to lift her up.

 

[AbbaLove]

Pat,

Is it at all possible there's a mistranslation in any of the following verses - "her/she/herself" versus "him/he/himself" ?

Isaiah 51:18 (CJB)
There is no one to guide her among all the sons she has borne. Not one of all the children she raised is taking her by the hand.

Isaiah 54:1-3 (Israel will be restored like a barren woman who bears many children)
Isaiah 54:4-6 (Israel will be restored like a widow who is rescued from her reproach)

Jeremiah 3:9 (CJB)
The ease with which Isra’el prostituted herself defiled the land, as she committed adultery with stones and with logs.

Amos 5:2 (CJB)
The virgin of Isra’el has fallen; she will not rise again. She lies abandoned on her own soil with no one to lift her up.

 

[pat34lee]

Pat,

Is it at all possible there's a mistranslation in any of the following verses - "her/she/herself" versus "him/he/himself" ?

I don't know Hebrew, so I can't tell you from that, but looking at different translations, I would say not likely just from the context.

 

[pshun2404]

I do not know if I should be on here but I just wanted to let you all know Yonah has been very busy with life and is today undergoing his next post/response so please be patient and thanks for all the comments they are all from hearts seeking the truth (as I believe ours are as well)....

I pray the LORD bless and be merciful and gracious to us all...

Paul