Our Lady of Guadalupe

[concretecamper]

1517: Martin Luther initiated the reformation and 5 millions souls are lost.

.......the response.......

In 1531 Our Lady of Guadalupe appears and as a result 9 million souls are converted and enter the Church.

Just a preview of "she will crush your head"

 

[Tigger45]

In Mexico rather than Wittemberg especially considering she makes no reference to the Reformation?

Nah, at best the OP is a stretch and in truth it’s a false dichotomy.

 

[concretecamper]

In Mexico rather than Wittemberg especially considering she makes no reference to the Reformation?

Nah, at best the OP is a stretch and in truth it’s a false dichotomy.

historical fact, sorry if it rubs you the wrong way.

 

[Tigger45]

It doesn’t rub me the wrong way being I didn’t propose your false dichotomy.

 

[JackRT]

The Virgin of Guadalupe is yet more one mythical story whose believers are missing out on true facts that are actually more respectful and confer more credit upon them than the myth. The image on the Virgin tilma was painted by a native Aztec artist; and the painting had not only an important role in Mexico's early history as a nation, but also a staggering impact upon its culture ever since. Mexicans with Aztec heritage should take pride in the fact that their original culture, specifically the goddess Tonantzin, was a key ingredient in the spread of modern Catholicism. The Juan Diego myth takes that away, and whitewashes part of Mexican history clean of any Aztec influence. That's a disservice to one of humanity's greatest ancient civilizations, and it's a disservice to history.

When we see the Virgin of Guadalupe image today, most people react in one of two ways: They worship it as a miraculous apparition, or they dismiss it as someone else's religious icon. Both reactions miss the much richer true history. The Virgin of Guadalupe stands not only as an invaluable work of ancient art (possibly the most popular piece of art ever created), but also as a reminder of how the conquest of Mexico was truly accomplished: Not only its military conquest, but one of history's greatest religious conversions as well.

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4201

 

[anna ~ grace]

In Mexico rather than Wittemberg especially considering she makes no reference to the Reformation?

Nah, at best the OP is a stretch and in truth it’s a false dichotomy.

That doesn't sound like you, Tigger.

I hope that as you journey back into Eastern Orthodoxy, that you still find it in you to regard Catholics, especially those who really try to live out and make sacrifices for their faith, as fellow Christians, even if we do not agree on everything.

 

[Tigger45]

That doesn't sound like you, Tigger.

I hope that as you journey back into Eastern Orthodoxy, that you still find it in you to regard Catholics, especially those who really try to live out and make sacrifices for their faith, as fellow Christians, even if we do not agree on everything.

Well my friend I think you might has missed the point of my post. It was that Our Lady’s appearance was in correlation to Martin Luther and the issues he had with the Western church. Which by the way the East has and had many of the same issues. And just for the record I have a lot in common with my Catholic brothers and sisters. My contention is with the OP and it’s specific intension.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Not David]

I believe there is going to be a celebration here in Ecuador.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Well my friend I think you might has missed the point of my post. It was that Our Lady’s appearance was in correlation to Martin Luther and the issues he had with the Western church. Which by the way the East has and had many of the same issues. And just for the record I have a lot in common with my Catholic brothers and sisters. My contention is with the OP and it’s specific intension.

Hope that makes sense.

But for you to make a cynical, dismissive, or negative comment, at all, about those things held dear or believed by other Christians is unlike you. Wholly unlike the tenor of your other posts. Be careful, Tigger.

God bless you, and keep you.

 

[Tigger45]

Mananitas Mexican birthday song Virgin.

O Virgin, the most beautiful in all the valley of Anahuac Your children have come this early to greet you Awaken, Mother, awaken see, the dawn has come and the little birds are singing and the moon has already set.
That cheerful morning in which you appeared to Juan while God bestows me life I will never forget this. Awaken, Mother, awaken look, the dawn has come Look, Queen, your volcanoes stained red by the sun.

 

[concretecamper]

Well my friend I think you might has missed the point of my post. It was that Our Lady’s appearance was in correlation to Martin Luther and the issues he had with the Western church.

uncanny timing, the 2 events, you got to agree on that!!!

 

[Lyrasong]

uncanny timing, the 2 events, you got to agree on that!!!

I have heard this comparison, also, regarding the saving of new souls (following the departure from the Church of many faithful) through the appearance and intercession of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Why could it not be? What is for certain is that her appearance in 1531 demonstrates the Lord’s and her own caring for a people who had lost everything and were hurting greatly. She honored the Native peoples of North and South America in a most loving, beautiful and enduring way.

 

[Marilyn C]

1517: Martin Luther initiated the reformation and 5 millions souls are lost.

.......the response.......

In 1531 Our Lady of Guadalupe appears and as a result 9 million souls are converted and enter the Church.

Just a preview of "she will crush your head"

`Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.` (2 Cor. 11: 14)

All those who have gone before us are `ASLEEP` in Christ as God`s word says. (1 Thess. 4: 14) They are all waiting for their new bodies, thus they cannot see, hear, talk, move, etc but a resting asleep in the Lord.

These so called apparitions are demonic!

`

 

[Ephfourfive]

There was no reformation! Revolt yes but no reformation
The church is built on the apostles eph 2:20 none of the so called reformers were apostles and had no authority
There is no reformation mandated in the Bible

 

[Marilyn C]

There was no reformation! Revolt yes but no reformation
The church is built on the apostles eph 2:20 none of the so called reformers were apostles and had no authority
There is no reformation mandated in the Bible

Hi Ephfourfive,

Yes built on the apostles and prophets that Christ gave after His ascension. (Eph. 4: 12 - 13) And the Lord is still building His Church and giving those ministries to continue till He comes.

The 12 apostles are NOT part of the Body of Christ, the church, but will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel from the new Jerusalem. (Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14)

Remember that Peter had to be admonished by the apostle Paul because Peter was trying to get the Gentile believers to behave as Jews. (Gal. 2: 11 - 16)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[prodromos]

The 12 apostles are NOT part of the Body of Christ, the church

What complete nonsense.

 

[Ephfourfive]

Hi Ephfourfive,

Yes built on the apostles and prophets that Christ gave after His ascension. (Eph. 4: 12 - 13) And the Lord is still building His Church and giving those ministries to continue till He comes.

The 12 apostles are NOT part of the Body of Christ, the church, but will rule over the 12 tribes of Israel from the new Jerusalem. (Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14)

Remember that Peter had to be admonished by the apostle Paul because Peter was trying to get the Gentile believers to behave as Jews. (Gal. 2: 11 - 16)

regards, Marilyn.

Paul was correcting Peter in a matter of discipline not faith and morals

The one and only church body of Christ new covenant heavenly Jerusalem is founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 acts 9 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

 

[Marilyn C]

What complete nonsense.

Hi prodromos,

Easy to say but how about doing some work and showing why you believe that.

2 Tim. 2: 15 tells us to `be diligent to present yourself approved of God, a worker who does not need t be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...`

 

[Marilyn C]

Paul was correcting Peter in a matter of discipline not faith and morals

The one and only church body of Christ new covenant heavenly Jerusalem is founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 acts 9 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Hi Ephfourfive,

Glad to see you have `done some work` to present your view.

So let`s look at what the 12 apostles knew and were told to declare.

1. They have to have been with the Lord throughout His ministry. (Acts 1: 21 & 22) I think we would agree there.

2. Jesus told them to declare that He was the `Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36) Also agree I think.

Now did they know about the Body of Christ, the church, the called out ones? No, for that revelation was given to the apostle Paul. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7) And he was one of the apostles that the Lord gave when He ascended to the Father. (Eph. 4: 11)

So did Peter and the other 11 apostles understand about the Body of Christ? No! For we can see by Peter`s behavior that he had no understanding of the Body of Christ, the church.

Peter did not want to go to the Gentiles until the Holy Spirit showed him in a vision. Peter only had the understanding of Israel as God`s chosen and the Gentiles as separate. (Acts. 10: 9 - 48) Then afterwards Peter realized that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. (v. 36) But still no revelation of the Body of Christ.

Thus Paul had to deal with Peter about the truth of the gospel.

`when I (Paul) saw that they were not straightforward about the TRUTH of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?" (Gal. 2: 14)

And we know that the revelation of the Body of Christ, the new man, (Jews and Gentiles) was given to the apostle Paul. (Eph. 1 - 4) Paul lays out in quite detail what this new purpose of God was.

Peter and the other 11 did not know about this revelation and even found what Paul said as quite difficult for them, as they still only understood about Israel being God`s chosen people.

`as also in his (Paul`s) epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which some things hard to understand...` (2 Peter 3: 16)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[prodromos]

Hi prodromos,

Easy to say but how about doing some work and showing why you believe that.

2 Tim. 2: 15 tells us to `be diligent to present yourself approved of God, a worker who does not need t be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...`

The verses you quoted don't support your claim that the Apostles are not part of the body of Christ,l in any way, shape or form. What they do show is that the Apostles have a special place within the Church