Our Lady of Guadalupe Anomalies

[AJTony1313]

I am life-long Catholic Christian, and some of my interests/background include: Bible study, apologetics, CCD teacher, Church history.

After reading several apparently specious claims concerning the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. I would like to open a discussion concerning some anomalous information about the Image, and the Apparition story.

First, a primary factor in the story of the Apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe and Juan Diego was the presentation of the tilma/flowers/Image to the bishop-elect Juan Zumarraga in December 1531. Zumarraga lived for another 17 years, and was a prolific writer, but in all of his writings, he made no mention of the Apparition, or of Juan Diego. This is known as the “Silence of Zumarraga”.

Second, the first confirmed publication of the event was 117 years after it occurred, at which time, the priests in charge of the church containing the Image declared that they had no knowledge of the Apparition story.

Third, using simple measurements and simple math, one can determine that the original tilma/Image hanging in the Basilica in Mexico City is much too large. It would, at minimum, fit a man 7 feet tall!

Finally, despite various reports, NASA has had absolutely no involvement in the studies on the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Note: I am open to the concept of Marion apparitions. However, as one who enjoys studying Church history, I am curious about any inconsistent information.

 

[Valletta]

I am life-long Catholic Christian, and some of my interests/background include: Bible study, apologetics, CCD teacher, Church history.

After reading several apparently specious claims concerning the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. I would like to open a discussion concerning some anomalous information about the Image, and the Apparition story.

First, a primary factor in the story of the Apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe and Juan Diego was the presentation of the tilma/flowers/Image to the bishop-elect Juan Zumarraga in December 1531. Zumarraga lived for another 17 years, and was a prolific writer, but in all of his writings, he made no mention of the Apparition, or of Juan Diego. This is known as the “Silence of Zumarraga”.

Second, the first confirmed publication of the event was 117 years after it occurred, at which time, the priests in charge of the church containing the Image declared that they had no knowledge of the Apparition story.

Third, using simple measurements and simple math, one can determine that the original tilma/Image hanging in the Basilica in Mexico City is much too large. It would, at minimum, fit a man 7 feet tall!

Finally, despite various reports, NASA has had absolutely no involvement in the studies on the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Note: I am open to the concept of Marion apparitions. However, as one who enjoys studying Church history, I am curious about any inconsistent information.

Father Spitzer has good scientific knowledge of a number of miracles, I have provided a link which mentions some facts about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe:

Some scholars have challenged the veracity of this story because it was not found either in the writings of Bishop Zumarraga or in an ecclesiastical report about the image. However, in 1995, Jesuit historian Xavier Escalada published a four-volume encyclopedia on the image and history of Our Lady of Guadalupe in which he reports and analyses a hitherto unknown sheet of parchment dated 1548 called “Codex Escalada.”6 The parchment contains an illustrated story of the vision of Juan Diego and is signed by Antonio Valeriano and Bernardino de Sahagun. These signatures were authenticated by Banco de Mexico and Charles E. Dibble. The authentication of the signatures -- along with the parchment, illustrations, language, and style – validate both the parchment and the existence and vision of Juan Diego.7
https://f.hubspotusercontent40.net/...lessed-Mary-Saints-and-the-Holy-Eucharist.pdf

 

[Skye1300]

It's the part about her eyes that convinced me.

Many are also familiar with the miraculous aspects of the eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. A close examination of the eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has revealed many miraculous features, including a microscopic image of a bearded man that can be seen within the eye of Our Lady. This is covered on our Creation and Miracles DVD. But it gets even more incredible. When a person looks at an image, the way that the eye works is that three different aspects of what one sees are contained in three different parts of the eye. This law, which was discovered by Purkinje and Samson, is called the Samson-Purkinje law:

“The Polish Purkinje and the Frenchman Samson, independently discovered this law that carries their names. Three images are formed in the human eye: one upright and brilliant in the anterior part of the cornea; a second one, seen deeper in the anterior part of the crystalline lens, is also upright but less brilliant; and the third one, in the posterior surface of the crystalline lens, is inverted, smaller, and with an immediate depth and brilliancy…” (Francis Anson, Guadalupe – What Her Eyes Say, p. 108)

Well, the microscopic image of the “bearded man” that can be seen within the eye of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe follows this law precisely:

“We are also talking of another impossible phenomenon: the image of the ‘bearded man’ appears three times in the eyes of the ayate [the tilma of Juan Diego], following the laws of Samson-Purkinje with mathematical precision. One image, four millimeters high and one millimeter wide, upright and brilliant, seems to come out of the cloth; a second one, of the same size, the deepest one and the least brilliant, can be perfectly distinguished at the bottom of the eye; and a third one, hardly a millimeter high, is located halfway between the other two and is inverted and displaced toward the left, as it happens in a living human eye… but this is just a piece of cloth.” (Francis Anson, Guadalupe – What Her Eyes Say, p. 109)

Obviously, the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is not a painting. It’s a miraculous image of Our Lady which God and Our Lady miraculously imprinted on Juan Diego’s tilma.

The significance of the discovery of the bearded man in the eye of the image is that Our Lady was looking at the bearded man, Juan Diego, when the image was imprinted on the cloth. That’s why his image appears three times in her eye just as it would in a living eye! Other aspects of the eyes show that they are like living eyes. It makes sense that heaven would leave the world with one miraculous and true image of Our Lord on a cloth (the Shroud of Turin) and one miraculous and true image of Our Lady on a cloth (the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe).

The eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe (VIDEO)

 

[AJTony1313]

Father Spitzer has good scientific knowledge of a number of miracles, I have provided a link which mentions some facts about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe:

Some scholars have challenged the veracity of this story because it was not found either in the writings of Bishop Zumarraga or in an ecclesiastical report about the image. However, in 1995, Jesuit historian Xavier Escalada published a four-volume encyclopedia on the image and history of Our Lady of Guadalupe in which he reports and analyses a hitherto unknown sheet of parchment dated 1548 called “Codex Escalada.”6 The parchment contains an illustrated story of the vision of Juan Diego and is signed by Antonio Valeriano and Bernardino de Sahagun. These signatures were authenticated by Banco de Mexico and Charles E. Dibble. The authentication of the signatures -- along with the parchment, illustrations, language, and style – validate both the parchment and the existence and vision of Juan Diego.7
https://f.hubspotusercontent40.net/...lessed-Mary-Saints-and-the-Holy-Eucharist.pdf

I am aware of the Codex Escalada dated 1548 and discovered 447 years later in 1995, during the canonization process of Juan Diego. It has been studied by several people knowledgeable in ancient texts, and resulted in, as expected, various positive and negative commentaries. I am curious about several aspects of this codex. It is dated 1548 in the top center, but for some reason it reads 154-8, and the text below it reads 15031 for the Apparition date. Today as we quickly type away on our keyboards, typos can occur, However, this is a handwritten document. I see this odd numbering as curious, but not bothersome.

You stated that Dr. Charles Dibble certified the signature of Fray Bernardino de Sahagún which would date the codex before the death of Sahagún in 1590. The interesting aspect of his signature is that history reports that he was not pleased with the Apparition story because it appeared to be mixed with local pagan idolatry. Again, his signature on the codex is curious, but not bothersome. History also notes that Dr. Dibble and the Bank of Mexico worked only from photocopies of the Codex, and not the original.
The signature of the well-known Antonio Valeriano is bothersome to me; he misspelled his own name! How is it possible that Valeriano would misspell his own name as Vareliano? In addition, in the text he gives his title as a judge, “Juez Anton Vareliano”, when his title was governor? This would be equivalent to our president being called attorney Joseph Biden. Governors were often called Judge-Governors, but never just Judges.

Other curiosities, the prominent figure of Juan Diego in the lower left corner of the Codex has the facial features of a Spaniard, with a pointed beard, not that of an Aztec Indian.

To the best of my knowledge, the 1979 infrared studies by Dr. Phillip Callahan on the Basilica Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was sanctioned by the Church. These studies concluded that there appears to be an inexplicable (miraculous) original Image on the tilma, which was then painted over and added to over a period of about 70 years ending in the early 17th century. It appears that the last additions were the stars on the mantle. Here is a simple check that anyone can do. Find a high-resolution copy of the Image online, (the best to date is the digital Missionary copies) then enlarge some of the stars on Mary’s mantle, and you will clearly see that the stars are not incorporated but are painted on top of the original Image.

So, the next curiosity about the Codex Escalada is the prominent depiction of stars on Mary’s mantle, dated in 1548.

In general, I see this Codex as interesting, but of yet to be settled provenance.

 

[AJTony1313]

It's the part about her eyes that convinced me.

Many are also familiar with the miraculous aspects of the eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. A close examination of the eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has revealed many miraculous features, including a microscopic image of a bearded man that can be seen within the eye of Our Lady. This is covered on our Creation and Miracles DVD. But it gets even more incredible. When a person looks at an image, the way that the eye works is that three different aspects of what one sees are contained in three different parts of the eye. This law, which was discovered by Purkinje and Samson, is called the Samson-Purkinje law:

“The Polish Purkinje and the Frenchman Samson, independently discovered this law that carries their names. Three images are formed in the human eye: one upright and brilliant in the anterior part of the cornea; a second one, seen deeper in the anterior part of the crystalline lens, is also upright but less brilliant; and the third one, in the posterior surface of the crystalline lens, is inverted, smaller, and with an immediate depth and brilliancy…” (Francis Anson, Guadalupe – What Her Eyes Say, p. 108)

Well, the microscopic image of the “bearded man” that can be seen within the eye of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe follows this law precisely:

“We are also talking of another impossible phenomenon: the image of the ‘bearded man’ appears three times in the eyes of the ayate [the tilma of Juan Diego], following the laws of Samson-Purkinje with mathematical precision. One image, four millimeters high and one millimeter wide, upright and brilliant, seems to come out of the cloth; a second one, of the same size, the deepest one and the least brilliant, can be perfectly distinguished at the bottom of the eye; and a third one, hardly a millimeter high, is located halfway between the other two and is inverted and displaced toward the left, as it happens in a living human eye… but this is just a piece of cloth.” (Francis Anson, Guadalupe – What Her Eyes Say, p. 109)

Obviously, the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is not a painting. It’s a miraculous image of Our Lady which God and Our Lady miraculously imprinted on Juan Diego’s tilma.

The significance of the discovery of the bearded man in the eye of the image is that Our Lady was looking at the bearded man, Juan Diego, when the image was imprinted on the cloth. That’s why his image appears three times in her eye just as it would in a living eye! Other aspects of the eyes show that they are like living eyes. It makes sense that heaven would leave the world with one miraculous and true image of Our Lord on a cloth (the Shroud of Turin) and one miraculous and true image of Our Lady on a cloth (the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe).

The eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe (VIDEO)

Concerning the Images in the eyes of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Examination of the interior of her eyes required extreme enlargement of that section of the Image. At this scale, significant pixelation comes into play. My initial thoughts on the images seen in Mary’s eyes was a simple example of pareidolia. However, if this is indeed not pareidolia, but a result of Purkinje-Sanson images, then I would like to see similar photographic examples in present day images of the human eye. Search the internet for examples of Purkinje-Sanson images, and you will only find images of eyes with dots of white lights reflected, no faces of people, etc.

Next problem I have is it is quite difficult to find any publicized images of Mary’s eyes without all the reported internal images presented as outlines; some with color added. I would like to see some of the raw data photographic images of her eyes.

At this time, I remain skeptical that Mary’s eyes contain images of Diego, Zumarraga, etc. I respect your belief that these eye images represent another miraculous aspect of Our Lady’s Image. I myself see the color retention and brilliance of Her mantle and robe, after nearly 500 years as convincing evidence of a miraculous event.