Mark Quayle

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I hope this link works right, and continues to. I don't know how else to do it.

(10) Funny Video | Facebook

It shows a guy with a real hand hidden, a fake hand shown, whose brain is being trained to see the fake hand as the real one. Hilarious.
 

Quid est Veritas?

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Mirror box therapy, where you trick the brain into thinking the left is the right or vice versa, or using images to confuse the pain system into considering a body part normal, is well established medical treatment. It is more used for Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS), especially when we can't find anything biologically wrong, yet the patient reports severe pain and develops swelling or autonomic issues, sensation or physycal changes or the like. The brain is very plastic where pain and sensation is involved, and you can induce someone to experience sensations different from the physical self. The brain is not separate from the body but an organic whole, so there is a constant interplay - what the brain thinks is abnormal soon will be, and vice versa.

There are some nice lay info resources on pain management if anyone is interested:

Tame the Beast
 
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SelfSim

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.. The brain is not separate from the body but an organic whole, so there is a constant interplay - what the brain thinks is abnormal soon will be, and vice versa.
Where the mind thinks it is physically located, can be altered by feeding the visual senses false images, (using a virtual reality headset). (I haven't yet watched the OP video)
This only alters the subject's perception of 'where I am', which still has the very real effect of producing physical responses consistent with that altered perception .. an objectively well known (and studied) 'altered perception' experiment, it is.

Its important to distinguish between the mind, the visual sense and the brain here I think.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I'm confused about what the fact of alleviating phantom limb syndrome (an amazing phenomenon to me, since it's so weird) has to do with the title of "Now tell me the scientist is capable of of logic without bias".

Am I missing something?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Where the mind thinks it is physically located, can be altered by feeding the visual senses false images, (using a virtual reality headset). (I haven't yet watched the OP video)
This only alters the subject's perception of 'where I am', which still has the very real effect of producing physical responses consistent with that altered perception .. an objectively well known (and studied) 'altered perception' experiment, it is.

Its important to distinguish between the mind, the visual sense and the brain here I think.
The mind/body problem is still a very real problem, yes. What I was talking about is a bit different though. It isn't just about perception of the person's mind here. It is about retraining the sensory homunculus itself, which is underneath or subconscious to actual perception. For instance, CRPS patients often have poor two point discrimination on the affected side, which can be alleviated in the long term by Left/Right discrimination exercises independant of body perception (for instance, games where they must guess left from right in photos of body parts or with shapes). The first thing CRPS patients are told is that it isn't mental nor is it physical. These factors cannot be treated as separate in practice, though we love to do so in discussing it.
 
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SelfSim

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The mind/body problem is still a very real problem, yes. What I was talking about is a bit different though. It isn't just about perception of the person's mind here. It is about retraining the sensory homunculus itself, which is underneath or subconscious to actual perception. For instance, CRPS patients often have poor two point discrimination on the affected side, which can be alleviated in the long term by Left/Right discrimination exercises independant of body perception (for instance, games where they must guess left from right in photos of body parts or with shapes). The first thing CRPS patients are told is that it isn't mental nor is it physical. These factors cannot be treated as separate in practice, though we love to do so in discussing it.
Ok .. You've gotten me reading up on the sensory homunculus there .. (thanks .. and interesting ..).

At the moment however, it seems to me the altered perception experiment I mentioned, is still messing about with subconscious perceptions although, maybe that might be better expressed as 'things we automatically take for granted', like: knowing where I am or, what my orientation is. Those are pretty low level 'automatic'(?) perceptions, I would think(?)
Either way, more reading and thinking to do, for me ...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I hope this link works right, and continues to. I don't know how else to do it.

(10) Funny Video | Facebook

It shows a guy with a real hand hidden, a fake hand shown, whose brain is being trained to see the fake hand as the real one. Hilarious.
This is the 'Rubber Hand' illusion, one of the simplest body-ownership illusions to demonstrate - it's often finished with the assistant hitting the rubber hand with a hammer or stabbing it, which makes the subject jerk back and reflexively pull their arm away.

It's a way of showing that our body ownership map is not hard-wired, but depends on the brain making a 'best guess' based on sensory information.
 
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SelfSim

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Ok .. You've gotten me reading up on the sensory homunculus there .. (thanks .. and interesting ..).

At the moment however, it seems to me the altered perception experiment I mentioned, is still messing about with subconscious perceptions although, maybe that might be better expressed as 'things we automatically take for granted', like: knowing where I am or, what my orientation is. Those are pretty low level 'automatic'(?) perceptions, I would think(?)
Either way, more reading and thinking to do, for me ...
Just updating myself here .. This gets a little complicated, but from what I've been reading, the posterior parietal cortex is the area of the brain which recognizes touch characteristics like orientation and movement. It is also involved in combining the touch and motor components of actions like grasping.

The sensory homunculus, (mentioned above by @Quid est Veritas?), refers to an overall somatotopic map of the body which starts in the primary somatosensory cortex. (Each area of the somatosensory cortex has its own, but similar, map of the body).
I also notice that the primary somatosensory cortex 'sends projections to other parietal lobe regions for higher-level processing of touch information'. The secondary somatosensory cortex (for eg) receives such info and is then responsible for object recognition, discerning texture, shape, and size.
Plasticity is then involved following events like losing a finger/hand etc.

I found this page to be a readable high level explanatory reference for how it all works, (if folks are interested): TOUCH: CENTRAL PROCESSING
 
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tas8831

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I'm confused about what the fact of alleviating phantom limb syndrome (an amazing phenomenon to me, since it's so weird) has to do with the title of "Now tell me the scientist is capable of of logic without bias".

Am I missing something?
No. It is standard anti-science provocation.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I'm confused about what the fact of alleviating phantom limb syndrome (an amazing phenomenon to me, since it's so weird) has to do with the title of "Now tell me the scientist is capable of of logic without bias".

Am I missing something?



No. It is standard anti-science provocation.
Since I'm the one who said it, I'll answer, and by the way, I am not in the least anti-science. I love science and find most branches of it fascinating. What I don't like is the slavish assumption that whatever the scientific community comes up with is valid, or that whatever the scientific community comes up with represents Science.

So what I was thinking when I said it, is how easily the mind can be manipulated, even when it knows better.
 
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SelfSim

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.. What I don't like is the slavish assumption that whatever the scientific community comes up with is valid, or that whatever the scientific community comes up with represents Science.
You base your likes/dislikes on your own personal a strawman premise then(?)

There's a lot of objective knowledge brought to bear when a scientific thinker reviews material from a scientific perspective.

Mark Quayle said:
So what I was thinking when I said it, is how easily the mind can be manipulated, even when it knows better.
Perceptions are well known to be impacted by illusions .. Surely the majority of adults already know this(?)

Illusions and beliefs are arguably the entire reason for the existence of the scientific method.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Since I'm the one who said it, I'll answer, and by the way, I am not in the least anti-science. I love science and find most branches of it fascinating. What I don't like is the slavish assumption that whatever the scientific community comes up with is valid, or that whatever the scientific community comes up with represents Science.

So what I was thinking when I said it, is how easily the mind can be manipulated, even when it knows better.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how that connects to the fact that the mind can be easily fooled and how that connects to the title.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Since I'm the one who said it, I'll answer, and by the way, I am not in the least anti-science. I love science and find most branches of it fascinating. What I don't like is the slavish assumption that whatever the scientific community comes up with is valid, or that whatever the scientific community comes up with represents Science.

So what I was thinking when I said it, is how easily the mind can be manipulated, even when it knows better.

My first response to you post was something like this:

If you'd left of the "hilarious" at the end and chosen a title like "Weird science thing" no one would have labeled you as "anti-science".

But then I read this reply carefully before responding and now realize what signaled the other responses.

What it looks like to me (and likely them as well) is that you seem to be asking the question: "If our brains can be wrong about where our pain comes from, how can we trust that scientists know what their data should mean?"

There is a notion deep in the scientific community that when you have a "great idea" it is *your job* as a scientist to rigorously challenge it. To come up with every counter and seek to falsify your new idea. That is how we start to check that our ideas are not some phantom of our minds.

You claim to "love science" but that seems to be "science" as used to designate the discoveries of science, and not the process or the people. After reviewing this thread, it seems like the OP is just a search for an excuse to reject some result of science that conflicts with some other previously held notion.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Since I'm the one who said it, I'll answer, and by the way, I am not in the least anti-science. I love science and find most branches of it fascinating. What I don't like is the slavish assumption that whatever the scientific community comes up with is valid, or that whatever the scientific community comes up with represents Science.

So what I was thinking when I said it, is how easily the mind can be manipulated, even when it knows better.
I do not know of anyone on the science side that has a "slavish assumption". Part of being a scientist, or even understanding the sciences is a willingness to challenge what any scientist says. At one point I denied AGW or climate change. I could find scientists that wrote papers that seemed to put it into doubt. But I also read the responses and could see that they refuted those papers since almost all of them were on local climates. Local climates may cool during AGW. For example Europe is a bit worried because the Gulf Stream could stop flowing due to warming and they would see massive cooling as a result. Warm water from the Caribbean flows up the Gulf Stream warming much of Europe. Locally they could end up with cooling due to AGW. It sounds contradictory, but it is not. A local area can cool while the globe as a whole warms.

The latest discoveries of science that really upsets quite a few Christians are discoveries of gender. As an old coot that bothered me too, but having learned my lesson I read the science that I could find from valid sources and once again it was accepted not because they were experts, but because they could support their claims.

I have found that anyone that starts to take exceptions to certain sciences does not "love science". They only love the science that they cherry pick. They are quite often science deniers.

By the way, a science denier is one that even after being shown the evidence, and not having anything valid to respond with still maintain their old beliefs.
 
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Mountainmike

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On the wider point:

Why is there an assumption that scientists behave any better or worse, than the population at large, or with any less bias?

Amongst the body scientific, there are all the types of personalities in the world at large. It is A large group of people , the majority of whom are conscientious but fallible at times, but just as in the world around them , there are a few allow ego and hubris & bias to trump proper process. On more controversial topics some allow their perception to be swayed by bias / belief and a few are actually caught cheating.
But that’s people, when were they ever different? Plenty of lawyers and police who supposedly deal in truth have been caught perverting the course of justice too!

The motivations to allow ( shall we call it) “ less than proper diligence” are the usual suspects, money, reputation , a priori bias, backing themselves into a corner. Etc. They are people after all.

The GMP systems of accredited laboratories are designed to eliminate wishful thinking and to mininimize the sometimes inevitable sources of people error, Sadly such process is not always followed.

(it is an aside on this thread that the shambolic dating of the shroud of Turin , caused by a toxic mixture of bias and hubris, The dating ITSELF should have been CALLED OFF and could never have happened had good practice been followed by the parties!
Why? because the AMS labs had utterly failed In prior process qualification and validation!! There was Total lack of essential non conformance process either. The machines and wider processes would have been sidelined pending requalification in an accredited lab. The labs should have shut their doors. It was all swept under the carpet, but how many people know that? That is the reason I urge all to study that period not just a single paper -not that anyone ever does i-, but if anyone wants to explore that, do it on a relevant thread)

As for “ no bias”
One of the oddest flips of logic, is the presumption that around religious phenomena the atheists are by definition more impartial and have less “bias”

A simple piece of logic refutes it. The boot is on the other foot.

In Analysing a so called “ miracle”, the believer does not need any of them to be true. It is of no consequence in any major branch of Christianity, indeed the church has demonstrated it is one of the worst sceptics of all. It is very late to the party in even declaring any “ worthy of belief”.
The believer CAN be impartial without sacrificing belief.

But The atheist NEEDs every single instance of possible “ miracle” to be false, so they ONLY look at the case against, and in few cases they try to misrepresent it!

So on presumption of “bias” , the atheists clearly have not only MOTIVE but also the NECESSITY for bias , and sadly so it has proved in some of the history of such analysis.

I hasten to add - Most scientists are trustworthy in separating belief from science, but sadly not all, ( they are people after all! ) Some of the worst abusers of “bias” have been atheist.
 
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Kylie

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What I don't like is the slavish assumption that whatever the scientific community comes up with is valid, or that whatever the scientific community comes up with represents Science.

Of course, the scientific method has protocols in place that help to reduce and/or eliminate any personal bias that someone might bring. And that's peer review and reproduction.

Get someone else to look over your work. If you've let a bias influence your thinking, they might be able to spot it because they might not have the same biases as you. The more people you have look over your work, the more likely it is that you'll find someone who does not share that bias and will thus be able to say, "Hey, I think you messed up here, because you've assumed X when there's no evidence that X is the case," or something like that.

And getting some to do your experiment again also works. If there was some inaccuracy in your measurements, or if your equipment was incorrectly calibrated, or some error occurred in the experiment, then it's unlikely that the same error will happen when someone else does it.

Both of these can help to eliminate errors and biases in science.
 
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Mountainmike

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But the reality is the protections don’t always work.
Warnings are not always heeded.
Scientists are people.
People are flawed and biased.
Disciplines can be systemically biased.
Groupthink happens in science.



Of course, the scientific method has protocols in place that help to reduce and/or eliminate any personal bias that someone might bring. And that's peer review and reproduction.

Get someone else to look over your work. If you've let a bias influence your thinking, they might be able to spot it because they might not have the same biases as you. The more people you have look over your work, the more likely it is that you'll find someone who does not share that bias and will thus be able to say, "Hey, I think you messed up here, because you've assumed X when there's no evidence that X is the case," or something like that.

And getting some to do your experiment again also works. If there was some inaccuracy in your measurements, or if your equipment was incorrectly calibrated, or some error occurred in the experiment, then it's unlikely that the same error will happen when someone else does it.

Both of these can help to eliminate errors and biases in science.
 
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