Buddhist No historically credible texts

mindlight

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Correct. The "Buddha" could have been an outer-space alien, as far as I'm concerned. What matters far more is the truth regarding the enlightened Map, rather than beliefs concerning the Mapmaker; or, the effectiveness of medicine over beliefs concerning the Doctor.

Faith is only a starting point; it is not the end-goal.

I practice the Forest Tradition of Theravada Buddhism. I claim that it is more true for myself, in the sense that practice of its Path has proven to be the most effective for me, whereas the Mahayana, and other, paths have not.

That's not quite true. The early Buddhist Path is a graded, progressive Path, open to anyone who desires to follow and verify it. As one proceeds along the Path, one is expected to see more of the destination over time (even if the destination has not been reached yet), just as a man who desires to reach a mountain will eventually begin to see the peaks and slopes of the mountain as he walks towards it over time. By progressing on the Path, I have personally verified for myself that the early Buddhist writings' insights are accurate, as far as I've gone. Thus, I hold a reasonable expectation that the achievement of the final goal of the Path is as claimed.

Probably.

How would historical credibility serve to add to my personal, direct knowledge that life is filled with discontentments and sufferings, or to my personal testing of the suggested solution to that problem? I know those things for myself - I need no external, historical mythology to bolster my own internal, direct experience.

The Buddhist concerns himself with (what we perceive as) the ultimate question in life, regarding discontentment & suffering. The solipsists concerns himself with the idea that only mind is known to be true.

I test one tradition's claims against another through personal, direct experience. It is a Buddhist axiom that everyone must directly experience the truth for themselves; this is the highest and most profound Way which truly and fundamentally changes individual life paths for the better.

Perhaps your real question is this: "How can a religious tradition be proven to others?" - would that be true?

It seems that you have conceded the essential point of the thread which was to do with historical credibility.

I would dispute that the fundamental problem of the real world was pain and discontentment. The basic problem is an alienation from God by sin. We are broken biological creatures inhabiting a broken ecosystem because of our sins and separation from God.

Since the path you describe to enlightenment is not testable in the ways that claims about Jesus have been and is entirely enclosed in the selfs experience of life the universe and everything it all seems highly subjective.

But you are not island who can escape a painful world by painting rosy pictures inside your own head. Ultimately this deadly world will claim you also as it claims us all. Christians see that as a reason to trust in a Saviour who has a proven answer to what comes next having been witnessed to have risen from the dead by those who saw Him and those who have experienced a relationship with Him since then also.
 
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mindlight

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No; Buddha, arahatta, and pari-nibbana represents the complete cessation of discontentment and suffering, and is the ultimate skillfulness.

All actions are done to change conditions in order to alleviate an experienced discontentment or suffering. For example: I scratch my skin - an action - in order to alleviate the discontentment I experience of an itch. I stop scratching - another action - because continuing to scratch would add to my experience of discontentment. Literally all actions can be understood in terms of the spectrum of suffering<->discontentment<->contentment<->pleasure.

"God" - using the common understanding of that word - is supposedly the greatest active, personal being. Therefore, if "God" acts, it can be concluded that it is the greatest being who experiences the greatest discontentments and sufferings in itself, and would represent the ultimate unskillfullness.

If God feels pain and discontentment then it is with our sin and stupidity and failure to acknowledge reality which finds its personal focus in Him.
 
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ananda

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It seems that you have conceded the essential point of the thread which was to do with historical credibility.
I have no problem conceding that. Then again, my point was that historical credibility is a verification question that is irrelevant to early Buddhism, since our method of verification and epistemology involves a superior form of knowledge - direct experience, rather than faith in evidence and/or historical research.

I would dispute that the fundamental problem of the real world was pain and discontentment ... The basic problem is an alienation from God by sin.
I have no direct, personal knowledge that "alienation from God by sin" is actually truth. Even if it was true, "alienation from God by sin" would not be a problem if nobody felt discontentment or suffering about it, which is why I perceive that discontentment & suffering is the most fundamental problem.

Since the path you describe to enlightenment is not testable in the ways that claims about Jesus have been ...
True. I suggest that the Awakening of Buddhism is directly & personally comprehended, which is a far superior form of knowledge compared to belief in claims about Jesus provided through the tenuous links given by historical research.

and is entirely enclosed in the selfs experience of life the universe and everything it all seems highly subjective.
Everything in a sense is subjective. Even that which I perceive as the "objective" is understood subjectively.

But you are not island who can escape a painful world by painting rosy pictures inside your own head. Ultimately this deadly world will claim you also as it claims us all.
IMO death is not the fundamental problem either. Death is only a problem for most people because of all the discontentment & suffering that comes associated with it. Death becomes irrelevant if discontentment & suffering about it is no longer a problem.

The basic problem is an alienation from God by sin ... We are broken biological creatures inhabiting a broken ecosystem because of our sins and separation from God ... Christians see that as a reason to trust in a Saviour who has a proven answer to what comes next having been witnessed to have risen from the dead by those who saw Him and those who have experienced a relationship with Him since then also.
How have you verified & known any of these allegations as true for yourself?
 
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ananda

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If God feels pain and discontentment then it is with our sin and stupidity and failure to acknowledge reality which finds its personal focus in Him.
I don't know if that is true or not. If "God" feels pain and discontentment, then it cannot be a worthy exemplar: why follow something that experiences discontentment, when all which we do ourselves is meant to take us away from discontentment?
 
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mindlight

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I have no problem conceding that. Then again, my point was that historical credibility is a verification question that is irrelevant to early Buddhism, since our method of verification and epistemology involves a superior form of knowledge - direct experience, rather than faith in evidence and/or historical research.

Well you have conceded the main point of the thread on the grounds that you believe that direct experience of the type you describe is meant to be a superior form of knowledge. However since this experience is not of a Supreme Being with whom we could all potentially share a relationship it is more difficult to establish whether it can be objectively verified.

The idea that direct experience could somehow be shared between people who have also experienced this is crucial to the notion of Buddhist community. So a monastery of monks with a hierarchy of teachers for example will assume that one has learnt will be ultimately understandable to another. That notion of shared understanding without God carries assumptions about human nature which Buddhism does not itself directly support or explain however. How is it that people are configured such that they all share this potential for enlightenment. Jews and Christians could answer this question in terms of all mankind being made in Gods image and therefore sharing a common bond that transcends their subjectivity. But such a view presupposes that man shares this common bond in God. Since Buddhism does not have this dimension I do not know how you could know if the direct experience that you have is the same as or as authentic as another Buddhist. The variation between the major Buddhist traditions would seem to testify that there was in fact no shared experience of what this direct experience might mean. Since you lack both theological and historical tools of objective verification how can you verify these experiences as authentic ones?

I have no direct, personal knowledge that "alienation from God by sin" is actually truth. Even if it was true, "alienation from God by sin" would not be a problem if nobody felt discontentment or suffering about it, which is why I perceive that discontentment & suffering is the most fundamental problem.

I guess that hypothesis could be tested by whether a Buddhist could rationalise away the fact that he was sitting in hell for his refusal to acknowledge God Almighty and whether that provoked discontentment and suffering in him.

True. I suggest that the Awakening of Buddhism is directly & personally comprehended, which is a far superior form of knowledge compared to belief in claims about Jesus provided through the tenuous links given by historical research.

Everything in a sense is subjective. Even that which I perceive as the "objective" is understood subjectively.

Language and the ability to hold a conversation like this would not be possible if everything was subjective. We share words and your responses and mine indicate a level of understanding of what the OTHER is saying. Also I can testify that you do not physically exist in the sphere of my immediate experience nor indeed in the country which I inhabit. You exist as another in another place and yet we talk. This implies the possibility of transcendent and shared consciousness.

IMO death is not the fundamental problem either. Death is only a problem for most people because of all the discontentment & suffering that comes associated with it. Death becomes irrelevant if discontentment & suffering about it is no longer a problem.

If death is annihilation or the transition to another incarnation no it is not a problem. If death results in heaven or hell then it is a pressing issue and no rationalisations of whether or not I am experiencing joy or pain will blank out hell.

How have you verified & known any of these allegations as true for yourself?

I share a relationship with Jesus with billions of Christians alive and dead. Knowing something is true is in part experiencing Him for oneself and I have such subjective experiences of Christ. But it is also about knowing that theologically and historically it is true and trusting for the bits you have not yet grasped. A settled certainty, conviction and contentment in these truths is shared by all believers who are One in Christ.
 
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mindlight

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I don't know if that is true or not. If "God" feels pain and discontentment, then it cannot be a worthy exemplar: why follow something that experiences discontentment, when all which we do ourselves is meant to take us away from discontentment?

No one and nothing could hurt God so he does not feel pain as we do. But as a man who dwelt amongst us he felt pain in the Roman whips and the nails that pierced his hands and feet. So He is not a God who is unable to sympathise with our human predicament. He chose to suffer these pains on our behalf so that we might be freed of the greater evil of our sins. There is no true peace without Him and rationalisations that people make that exclude Him from their notions of comfort, contentment and security are ultimately deluded as we will all account to Him.
 
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ananda

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Well you have conceded the main point of the thread on the grounds that you believe that direct experience of the type you describe is meant to be a superior form of knowledge. However since this experience is not of a Supreme Being with whom we could all potentially share a relationship it is more difficult to establish whether it can be objectively verified.
How does "supreme beingness" relate to objective verification? Why can't "reduction in discontentment and suffering" be objectively verified?

The idea that direct experience could somehow be shared between people who have also experienced this is crucial to the notion of Buddhist community. So a monastery of monks with a hierarchy of teachers for example will assume that one has learnt will be ultimately understandable to another. That notion of shared understanding without God carries assumptions about human nature which Buddhism does not itself directly support or explain however. How is it that people are configured such that they all share this potential for enlightenment. Jews and Christians could answer this question in terms of all mankind being made in Gods image and therefore sharing a common bond that transcends their subjectivity. But such a view presupposes that man shares this common bond in God. Since Buddhism does not have this dimension I do not know how you could know if the direct experience that you have is the same as or as authentic as another Buddhist.
How does it matter if I have the exact same experiences as another Buddhist, if I can understand my own question and can answer it for myself?

The variation between the major Buddhist traditions would seem to testify that there was in fact no shared experience of what this direct experience might mean.
There are far more variations in the more numerous multiplicity of Judaeo-Christian traditions.

Since you lack both theological and historical tools of objective verification how can you verify these experiences as authentic ones?
My verification involves my own observation & understanding of 1. my core question in life (seen & directly experienced in the here-and-now), 2. the laws governing Reality (seen & directly experienced in the here-and-now), and 3. the practices which addresses both (seen & directly experienced in the here-and-now).

My choice of early Buddhism merely reflects the fact that my direct experience is reflected best in their teachings among all other teachings. In other words: I first understand my own experiences, and then I find that Buddhism as that which best explains those experiences.

I guess that hypothesis could be tested by whether a Buddhist could rationalise away the fact that he was sitting in hell for his refusal to acknowledge God Almighty and whether that provoked discontentment and suffering in him.
That is a speculation that cannot be tested or experienced in the here-and-now.

Language and the ability to hold a conversation like this would not be possible if everything was subjective. We share words and your responses and mine indicate a level of understanding of what the OTHER is saying. Also I can testify that you do not physically exist in the sphere of my immediate experience nor indeed in the country which I inhabit. You exist as another in another place and yet we talk. This implies the possibility of transcendent and shared consciousness.
Yes, and we each understand and experience that "shared consciousness" subjectively.

If death is annihilation or the transition to another incarnation no it is not a problem. If death results in heaven or hell then it is a pressing issue and no rationalisations of whether or not I am experiencing joy or pain will blank out hell
If I experience no discontentment or suffering in "hell", then the fact that I am in "hell" would not matter. That "hell" would then be nibbana.

I share a relationship with Jesus with billions of Christians alive and dead. Knowing something is true is in part experiencing Him for oneself and I have such subjective experiences of Christ. But it is also about knowing that theologically and historically it is true and trusting for the bits you have not yet grasped. A settled certainty, conviction and contentment in these truths is shared by all believers who are One in Christ.
I understand that you feel certain about those claims; however, I asked how you've verified those claims for yourself. Observing his resurrection is not at all the same as feeling certain about his resurrection.
 
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ananda

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No one and nothing could hurt God so he does not feel pain as we do. But as a man who dwelt amongst us he felt pain in the Roman whips and the nails that pierced his hands and feet. So He is not a God who is unable to sympathise with our human predicament. He chose to suffer these pains on our behalf so that we might be freed of the greater evil of our sins. There is no true peace without Him and rationalisations that people make that exclude Him from their notions of comfort, contentment and security are ultimately deluded as we will all account to Him.
These are allegations that I cannot prove for myself.

What I do know is 1. my own experience with discontentment and suffering, 2. how all my actions are done to reduce and/or eliminate both.

If I consider myself imperfect - since I possess discontentment and suffering - I see no rational reason to follow an alleged being who also experiences discontentment and suffering, since it has not solved that problem for itself. The idea that that being is supreme would then mean that it supremely experiences discontentment and suffering, and the conclusion would be that it should be the opposite of whom I should follow.
 
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mindlight

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How does "supreme beingness" relate to objective verification? Why can't "reduction in discontentment and suffering" be objectively verified?

Do you actually believe in the object in itself. To believe that objective verification is possible you have to believe that there is an objective point from which verification can occur. Since you blur the boundaries between subjective and objective , do not believe in a God who exists in Himself how can you even discuss the possibility. Objective verification requires the possibility of a witness that is a final authority, whose verdicts cannot be legitimately contradicted. So experimental science provides us with facts for instance, God Almighty an infinite, perfect and all knowing being is a credible witness and arbiter of our actions and characters, we can examine history in a way that arrives at a fair appraisal of what actually happened given all the strands of evidence available to us. It seems to me that your version of verification depends on a subjective appraisal of whether or not something disturbs you or not. If it provokes discontentment or suffering then it cannot be right. On so many levels this is utterly ridiculous. No sports man gets to win a race by cruising along in training at a level that never causes him pain, no major beneficial reform does not cause major disturbance to societal norms and comfort, no surgeon can remove a cancer without cutting into the patient.

How does it matter if I have the exact same experiences as another Buddhist, if I can understand my own question and can answer it for myself?

It simply means that Buddhism stands only as a label in your mind for your own chosen disposition to the world. Since it means different things to all Buddhists there is no Buddhism and to call someone a Buddhist is simply to say they live by the rule that whatever they consider right is right. It is a recipe for lawlessness and moral relativism.

There are far more variations in the more numerous multiplicity of Judaeo-Christian traditions.

NO we all believe in the one God and we share the same scriptures, the ten commandments for instance. Pentecostals, Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics can all subscribe to the Nicene Creed and refer to the same scriptures.

My verification involves my own observation & understanding of 1. my core question in life (seen & directly experienced in the here-and-now), 2. the laws governing Reality (seen & directly experienced in the here-and-now), and 3. the practices which addresses both (seen & directly experienced in the here-and-now).

Absolute immanence in the case of a finite, imperfect and mortal actor is by no means an objective perspective. In practice we all have ambitions for the future and carry baggage from the past and live in a world of uncertainty where we clearly are not the final authority on what happens. I may have screamed my support for the England football team last night but they still lost to Croatia and God did not answer my prayers there. He knows best and I can trust Him for His decisions, my preference for an England victory does not take precedence over His plans and will.

My choice of early Buddhism merely reflects the fact that my direct experience is reflected best in their teachings among all other teachings. In other words: I first understand my own experiences, and then I find that Buddhism as that which best explains those experiences.

That is a speculation that cannot be tested or experienced in the here-and-now.

Yes, and we each understand and experience that "shared consciousness" subjectively.

If I experience no discontentment or suffering in "hell", then the fact that I am in "hell" would not matter. That "hell" would then be nibbana.

I understand that you feel certain about those claims; however, I asked how you've verified those claims for yourself. Observing his resurrection is not at all the same as feeling certain about his resurrection.

Certainty is ultimately tied to trust since we are not in a position to predict the future or determine the present. Even a president of the USA must bow to circumstance. There is no earthly authority that we can legitimately place our trust in and that includes ourselves. Indeed you cannot be certain even about your own feelings which vary by circumstance and personal interaction. If you cannot determine these then how much less can you trust yourself as the final arbiter of what is and what shall be. I trust God and I trust the word he has revealed is a different kind of certainty to the man who rationalises himself into his own personal bubble and then considers all of his actions perfectly integrated cause they are never disturbed by truthes from the outside world. My trust will take me through suffering but it will not guard me from it. Your certainty will delude you into contentment when things are really not all right. It is a joke that is often made about Englishmen asked the question how are you today? They will always answer fine. They could lose a leg and still say I am fine. It is not true though - they lost a leg and are bleeding all over the carpet.
 
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mindlight

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These are allegations that I cannot prove for myself.

What I do know is 1. my own experience with discontentment and suffering, 2. how all my actions are done to reduce and/or eliminate both.

If I consider myself imperfect - since I possess discontentment and suffering - I see no rational reason to follow an alleged being who also experiences discontentment and suffering, since it has not solved that problem for itself. The idea that that being is supreme would then mean that it supremely experiences discontentment and suffering, and the conclusion would be that it should be the opposite of whom I should follow.

I did not say God experienced pain. Though as Incarnate God-Man He is fully able to sympathise with our weaknesses. God is love and is perfect, He knows that his creatures will be perfectly happy when in perfect communion with Himself and so He seeks that for them. The child curled up in the corner mindlessly repeating mantras to itself that they believe will reduce discontentment and suffering is not happy. It is deluded and frightened and needs a hug and a reality check.
 
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ananda

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Do you actually believe in the object in itself. To believe that objective verification is possible you have to believe that there is an objective point from which verification can occur. Since you blur the boundaries between subjective and objective , do not believe in a God who exists in Himself how can you even discuss the possibility. Objective verification requires the possibility of a witness that is a final authority, whose verdicts cannot be legitimately contradicted. So experimental science provides us with facts for instance, God Almighty an infinite, perfect and all knowing being is a credible witness and arbiter of our actions and characters, we can examine history in a way that arrives at a fair appraisal of what actually happened given all the strands of evidence available to us.
There is no such thing as "objective verification", because even that which is considered "objective" must be subjectively experienced. "God Almighty" is not a final, objective authority, because you - as a believer - must still subjectively acknowledge and experience "God Almighty" as your authority. "History" is also subjectively experienced: we each read what others have written about "history" and decide for ourselves if it agrees with our own subjective understanding of the world.

It seems to me that your version of verification depends on a subjective appraisal of whether or not something disturbs you or not. If it provokes discontentment or suffering then it cannot be right. On so many levels this is utterly ridiculous. No sports man gets to win a race by cruising along in training at a level that never causes him pain, no major beneficial reform does not cause major disturbance to societal norms and comfort, no surgeon can remove a cancer without cutting into the patient ... It simply means that Buddhism stands only as a label in your mind for your own chosen disposition to the world.
No sportsman would care to win a race if it does not bring him contentment or pleasure, or decrease his discontentment or sufferings. No reform would happen if no discontentment or suffering were experienced because of existing norms. No surgeon would remove cancer if the surgeon and patient experienced no concern or discontentment over the cancer.

Since it means different things to all Buddhists there is no Buddhism and to call someone a Buddhist is simply to say they live by the rule that whatever they consider right is right. It is a recipe for lawlessness and moral relativism.
Not so; there is Lawfulness in Buddhism. We see the true Law (Dhamma) as what is fixed in Reality itself - not in written texts. E.g. The Law of Kamma (or causality, cause & effect) is a Law that is plainly evident as part and parcel of Reality itself, therefore we work with it as a Law. The Law of Consequences (derived from the Law of Kamma) is another Law we see embedded in Reality, and thus we also work with it.

We see no value in "laws" such as "Honor Aten, your lord and god, and have no other gods before him", as such a law is likely written by mere human hands, and it is not plainly evident in the fabric of Reality itself.

NO we all believe in the one God and we share the same scriptures, the ten commandments for instance. Pentecostals, Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics can all subscribe to the Nicene Creed and refer to the same scriptures.
Yet you likely exclude Latter Day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Messianics, Ebionites, Nazarenes, Essenes, etc.

Absolute immanence in the case of a finite, imperfect and mortal actor is by no means an objective perspective. In practice we all have ambitions for the future and carry baggage from the past and live in a world of uncertainty where we clearly are not the final authority on what happens. I may have screamed my support for the England football team last night but they still lost to Croatia and God did not answer my prayers there. He knows best and I can trust Him for His decisions, my preference for an England victory does not take precedence over His plans and will ... Certainty is ultimately tied to trust since we are not in a position to predict the future or determine the present. Even a president of the USA must bow to circumstance. There is no earthly authority that we can legitimately place our trust in and that includes ourselves. Indeed you cannot be certain even about your own feelings which vary by circumstance and personal interaction. If you cannot determine these then how much less can you trust yourself as the final arbiter of what is and what shall be. I trust God and I trust the word he has revealed is a different kind of certainty to the man who rationalises himself into his own personal bubble and then considers all of his actions perfectly integrated cause they are never disturbed by truthes from the outside world. My trust will take me through suffering but it will not guard me from it. Your certainty will delude you into contentment when things are really not all right. It is a joke that is often made about Englishmen asked the question how are you today? They will always answer fine. They could lose a leg and still say I am fine. It is not true though - they lost a leg and are bleeding all over the carpet.
The difference being, you are operating on the conceptual level. Early Buddhism generally works on the phenomenological level - experience and manipulation of bare sensory input, where we are the final authority.

To use a metaphor: your attention is focused on the images and players as seen on your television screen (a conceptual level of reality), whereas I am focused on the fundamental quantum particles that underlie what you see on your screen (a far deeper level of reality).
 
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ananda

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I did not say God experienced pain. Though as Incarnate God-Man He is fully able to sympathise with our weaknesses. God is love and is perfect, He knows that his creatures will be perfectly happy when in perfect communion with Himself and so He seeks that for them.
If a deity is perfect in itself, then it should possess neither lack nor concern for anything, for concern is a symptom of discontentment and an imperfection. Thus, a "perfect deity" should possess no desire or concern to either create or to seek communion with "his creatures".

The child curled up in the corner mindlessly repeating mantras to itself that they believe will reduce discontentment and suffering is not happy. It is deluded and frightened and needs a hug and a reality check.
I agree (my tradition does not repeat mantras, you're probably thinking of Hinduism or Mahayana).

Also, I would add, the child who prays and appeals to unseen, imaginary savior figures - in spite of the fact that the Laws of Reality demonstrates that the need to personally dispel delusion and ignorance in order to gain mastery of himself and his discontentments and sufferings - is also in need of a reality check.
 
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Peter1000

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Moderator,

I would like to ask some questions to ananda, but I am afraid because of my mormon religion that you will cut me off of this forum.

So I am asking for permission to ask some questions to ananda before I do. You will find the questions to be acceptable as far as our Christian heritage is concerned, I promise.

Please let me know, thank you.
 
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I believe dialogue is more fruitful with Buddhists than engaging in pure polemics. That's one thing I appreciate about Paul Williams book, that in parts he is engaged in dialogue with the Pure Land Buddhist school and its insights about the importance of faith or entrusting. He's not merely engaged in polemics.
 
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