My Love for God is unconditional...

[probinson]

LOL, so you're saying we should accept evil from Satan? That's not very 'Prosperity Gospel' of you...I think Hagin is turning over in his grave even as we speak.

Not at all. I think we should resist Satan, just as scripture instructs us to.

 

[JimB]

Please, try to pay attention.

*****

And I think you need to think through your responses—i.e., try to pay attention—before you post them.

Now, because this occurred years ago, and because I don't remember exactly how it was worded, I don't know where it's at, and have (as of yet) been unable to find it, but I do think it was in GT if I recall correctly.

*****

Riiigggght. But you have no problem finding any statement I have ever made in this forum, no matter how long ago it was.

Understand now?

Actually, it’s getting murkier.

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis​

 

[probinson]

Riiigggght. But you have no problem finding any statement I have ever made in this forum, no matter how long ago it was.

Why don't you stop beating around the bush and just come out and call me a liar? Say what you mean and mean what you say.

The truth is, I've searched for that quote, but because I can not remember exactly how it was phrased, and because I've spent a combined total of around 2 weeks in the GT forum in my nearly 6 years at CF, I can't find it.

OTOH, I've spent countless hours talking to you for years on end, so it makes it much easier for me to remember all the strange things you say.

Actually, it’s getting murkier.

Look! A squirrel!

Seriosuly Jim. I know it's not your strong suit, but if you're going to post in this thread, could you possibly talk about the OP instead of just baselessly calling me a liar? It would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[JimB]

Why don't you stop beating around the bush and just come out and call me a liar? Say what you mean and mean what you say.

The truth is, I've searched for that quote, but because I can not remember exactly how it was phrased, and because I've spent a combined total of around 2 weeks in the GT forum in my nearly 6 years at CF, I can't find it.

OTOH, I've spent countless hours talking to you for years on end, so it makes it much easier for me to remember all the strange things you say.




Look! A squirrel!

Seriosuly Jim. I know it's not your strong suit, but if you're going to post in this thread, could you possibly talk about the OP instead of just baselessly calling me a liar? It would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Touchy, touchy.

You took words right out of my mouth. How many times have I wanted to know if you were calling me a liar or just being rude.

However, I do think you are being less than honest in this thread. It may be a lack of perception on your part. I would hate to think it was deliberate.

BTW, it wasn't a squirrel; it was a rabbit. (I'm not calling you a liar, of course; it's that perception thing.)

~Jim

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. ~C.S. Lewis​

 

[probinson]

How many times have I wanted to know if you were calling me a liar or just being rude.

When I think you're being a liar, I'll do you the courtesy of calling you a liar.

However, I do think you are being less than honest in this thread. It may be a lack of perception on your part. I would hate to think it was deliberate.

I'm curious... do you have anything of value to add to this discussion, or are you just here to accuse me of being dishonest?

 

[JimB]

When I think you're being a liar, I'll do you the courtesy of calling you a liar.



I'm curious... do you have anything of value to add to this discussion, or are you just here to accuse me of being dishonest?

Buh bye

 

[Simon Peter]

Of course, people often quote Job, who (IMO) foolishly stated, Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him. You don't often hear people quote the other part of that verse, which says, "I will surely defend my ways to his face." It seems clear to me that Job was out of line in his comments, which may be why he had to repent at the end...

And yet Job also said this:

Job 2:10 NIV
10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

EDIT:

The most reliable literal translations, translate the word 'trouble' as "evil".

Simon

I find the way the account of Job is worded to be quite... interesting.

You apparently read that verse like this; "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble [from God]?" However, that's not what that verse actually says. It's what you assume it to say from your doctrinal standpoint, but it does not say that.

It is simply saying that if we accept good from God, then we must accept trouble also, but you'll note that Job does not attribute the trouble/evil/bad to God. In fact, not a single translation indicates that. Every translation I looked at is similar to the one you've posted, where you must make an assumption and read into the text what is not there to arrive at that conclusion.

LOL, so you're saying we should accept evil from Satan? That's not very 'Prosperity Gospel' of you...I think Hagin is turning over in his grave even as we speak.

Simon

Not at all. I think we should resist Satan, just as scripture instructs us to.

But Job 2:10 says to accept it, not resist it.



Pete, no wonder your doctrine is so 'out there' if this is how you read scripture...

If you want to clearly and unambiguously make your above statement, you would say, "Shall I accept agreements but not arguments from Probinson?" This leaves no doubt and no room for interpretation to what you mean.

Are you claiming that both agreements and arguments must be accepted - in your above example - because there is no comma? Because that's technically the only real difference between what you say is clear and unambiguous, and what is not clear (to you).




peace,
Simon

 

[probinson]

But Job 2:10 says to accept it, not resist it.



Pete, no wonder your doctrine is so 'out there' if this is how you read scripture...

If you want to live your life by the words of Job in the midst of his trials, I suppose that is your prerogative. However, scripture is quite clear that we have an enemy whom we should resist. You are free to believe that everything that comes down the pike, good and evil, originates from God if you like, but I will continue to believe that we have an enemy we should resist. I also believe that every good and perfect gift comes from my Father.

Are you claiming that both agreements and arguments must be accepted - in your above example - because there is no comma? Because that's technically the only real difference between what you say is clear and unambiguous, and what is not clear (to you).

It's really pretty simple; when a person says;

Shall I accept agreements from Probinson but not arguments?
​

...there is syntactic ambiguity. That statement does not necessarily indicate that the arguments that you will accept are from probinson, only the agreements. You must assume that the arguments that you will accept are also from probinson, which may or may not be what the person meant.

OTOH, when a person says;

Shall I accept agreements but not arguments from Probinson?
​

...this eliminates any potential ambiguity. It is now quite clear that the person is referring to both agreements and arguments from probinson.

Note that the words used are exactly the same, but syntactically arranged differently to eliminate any potential ambiguity. Also note that there is no comma in either statement.

Ah, but here we are on a tangential, elementary grammar lesson, instead of actually addressing the content of the OP. Whee!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Does anyone have anything to talk about that actually pertains to the OP?

 

[lismore]

TWho God IS and what God DOES are the same thing.

That's an interesting point. Thanks for sharing

 

[lismore]

Actually, grammatically its clear in that sentence that both the good and the trouble are coming from God.

But in the book of Job the trouble isn't coming from God. The trouble is coming from Satan.

 

[Faulty]

But in the book of Job the trouble isn't coming from God. The trouble is coming from Satan.

Technically, but isn't that a lot like saying, "My trouble isn't with the man who pulled the trigger, but rather with the bullet heading straight towards me"?

 

[Simon Peter]

But in the book of Job the trouble isn't coming from God. The trouble is coming from Satan.

Unfortunately it's not that simple. Is it ever?

Job 1:8-16 ESV
8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"
9 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for no reason?
10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face."
12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house,
14 and there came a messenger to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them,
15 and the Sabeans fell upon them and took them and struck down the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you."
16 While he was yet speaking, there came another and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you."




Job 2:3-7 ESV
3 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason."
4 Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life.
5 But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face."
6 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life."
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and struck Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.



God was the one in ultimate control. It was God who determined the extent of Job's suffering. In fact, God's supremacy over men is one of the central messages of the book of Job.


Simon

 

[dkbwarrior]

What God does, is an expression of who he is. Its not quite as being the same thing. One flows out of the other. A small point granted.

However, if you would read my post, I think you'd find that I don't make a distinction between who God is and what he does in the way you are claiming I do. I'm not trying to seperate them. On the contrary.. My point was (in that particular post) that the argument that we do not love God for who he is but we love him for what he does, presupposes that there is a difference between the two. IF it does not then it is a pointless and meaningless statement.

I think mabey we misunderstood each other somewhat. I agree with this. However, I think it fair to say that if the argument that we do not love God for who He is but for what He does presupposes that there is a difference between the two, then conversely, the argument that we love God for who He is and not for what He does also presupposes there is a difference between the two.

If you reread my post you will note that my statement was in response to a person who said that very thing. Mabey I didn't explain it well enough, but the context of this persons statementy to me was that he was saying that charismatics only love God for what He can do for them. His statement was presupposing a difference between the two, which is what I was responding to.

I said something very similar last month when I was teaching the Wednesday night service at our church. I said, "Someone said to me the other day that we should love God because He is God, and no other reason."

Reading your post further I don't think we really disagree, just coming at it from two different sides.

First, I agree with the last part where you say that we love God because of who he is and because of what he does. Our relationship with God is always responsive, he is the initiator and the actor, we respond, receive, and cooperate.

If anyone says that the love God of their own accord.. then they are most certainly wrong and they have some serious issues. That is not at all what Job said, nor is it what those who say they love God for who he is are saying.

This is certainly what I extrapolated from the person I was responding to, that they felt that they could love God of their own accord. Thus my response.

Probinson does an excellent job of describing the two, and I fully agree with him:

I actually agree with you that we Love God for who He is. So who is God, exactly?

He IS my Father.
He IS Lord of all.
He IS King of Kings.
He IS Lord of Lords.
He IS my savior.
He IS my healer.
He IS my comforter.
He IS my provider.
He IS my peace.
He IS my joy.
He IS my Strong Tower.
He IS my Shepherd.
He IS my strength.
He IS my salvation.
He IS my counselor.
He IS my protector.
He IS the air I breathe.
He IS the Creator.
He IS the Giver of Life.
He IS His Word.
He IS Great.
He IS Mighty.
He IS Love.
He IS Compassion.
He IS Grace.
He IS Mercy.
He IS Goodnes.
He IS Kindness.
He IS Truth.
He IS Light.

He IS the Great I AM.

He IS all of those things, and so much more.
​

That's who God IS.

The only reason that any of us are able to Love God is because He first Loved us. Anyone who says they Love God just because is, IMO, not being honest about the fact that they Love God for who He IS AND for what He does.

 

[Yitzchak]

Why don't you stop beating around the bush and just come out and call me a liar? Say what you mean and mean what you say.

The truth is, I've searched for that quote, but because I can not remember exactly how it was phrased, and because I've spent a combined total of around 2 weeks in the GT forum in my nearly 6 years at CF, I can't find it.

Have you considered the possibility that the moderators removed the post?


I don't know anything about the specific situation but sometimes moderators have been known to clean up a thread and remove a post but not issue any infraction and so there is no record of it.

 

[probinson]

Have you considered the possibility that the moderators removed the post?


I don't know anything about the specific situation but sometimes moderators have been known to clean up a thread and remove a post but not issue any infraction and so there is no record of it.

That could be. If I recall, that was a pretty heated thread. Or it could be that I'm remembering it slightly different than how it was actually said. But the jist of the statement was that no matter what God did to them, they would still serve God, and I thought to myself, that certainly seems steeped in pride; stating that you'll Love God, even if He never did anything to show His Love to you.

 

[Yitzchak]

That could be. If I recall, that was a pretty heated thread. Or it could be that I'm remembering it slightly different than how it was actually said. But the jist of the statement was that no matter what God did to them, they would still serve God, and I thought to myself, that certainly seems steeped in pride; stating that you'll Love God, even if He never did anything to show His Love to you.

It does seem to be quite the amazing claim.

Years ago , I remember some of my Presbyterian friends speaking about the grace that God shows to every person , Christian and non Christian ,whether they realize it or not. The Grace and love that gives us our next breath , for example. It always rang true to me that even the ability to seek God at all is because we were given grace by God to do so.

 

[rosemary]

God is love. Remember the Ten Commandments, love your neighbor as you love yourself Jesus want us to love both friends and enemies. If you want to love God you should learn to forgive and have faith that God exists and let his word be preached to all nations. In the book of John 3:16 says about the love of God that he sent his only beloved son to die for our sins and whoever believes in him shall never perish but they will get eternal life.

 

[hislegacy]

This is a great conversation - the OP

Thoughts/

 

[tturt]

Agree.

Know some who "leave" their faith/relationship after a tragedy which as caused me to consider this topic personally.