Must we use alcoholic wine at the L.S.?

[JDIBe]

I thought it might be best to move this subject to the debate forum as the moderators seemed to be hinting that way.

Everyone has their own pet issues, I suppose. This one seems to come up every few months. But that's ok. New people come in and out and contribute another aspect to the discussion.

To me the question of "Must we use alcoholic wine at the L.S?" seems to be like asking "Must we use non-chlorinated water at baptism?". Perhaps it is what occurs in the water that is important rather than the additives in it.

This is not to say symbolism is not important. It is possible to deviate so far that the original meaning is lost. This is why I respectfully disagree with an earlier poster who mention he had taken two things other than bread and fruit of the vine and considered it the "Lord's Supper". I do not think he had done anything wrong. He had eaten a meal and concencrated it to God. I think that was commendable and pleasing to the Lord. But it was not the "Lord's Supper" per se. It did not have the appearance of what was instituted that night during the last week of Jesus' life. The symbolism of the emblems was lost in the substitution.

As someone had pointed out earlier, the meaning of the word "oinos" is irrelevant to the discussion (although Aristotle mentions that it is used in the non-alcoholic way occasionally...) as that word does not appear in conjunction with the L.S. The words "fruit of the vine" and "this Cup" are used.

I don't think anyone here objects to the use of wine at the L.S. I think the objection arises when one is considered weak in the faith when one does not. That seems to be the main objection of most posters here.

I support Koey's right to use wine during the L.S. I do not feel, however, there are sufficient Scriptural grounds to make such an issue as to divide a congregation or to look upon what others use with disdain.

Simply put....
1. "fruit of the vine" : wine
2. "fruit of the vine" : grape juice

The "fruit of the vine" is what is important, for it represents the blood of Jesus Christ. The alcohol is merely incidental. If Jesus had said "alcoholic wine", I'd be right there with you Koey. But He didn't. He said "fruit of the vine". Both are sufficient to fulfill the purpose, and I see nothing in the lack of alcohol (or presence of) that hinders His request.

 

[crawfish]

I would agree. Since the LS was delivered on the Passover, in which yeast was prohibited, it seems incredibly unlikely that they used alcoholic wine.

I honestly don't have a problem with using wine for the LS in a purely spiritual sense. Wine is every bit as much a "fruit of the vine" as unfermented grape juice. However, I have had friends and relatives that are or have been alcoholics, and the use of wine at the LS would truly be counterproductive to their recovery. For that reason alone I would choose (if it were my choice) to use simple grape juice.

 

[DerSchweik]

I would agree. Since the LS was delivered on the Passover, in which yeast was prohibited, it seems incredibly unlikely that they used alcoholic wine.

I honestly don't have a problem with using wine for the LS in a purely spiritual sense. Wine is every bit as much a "fruit of the vine" as unfermented grape juice. However, I have had friends and relatives that are or have been alcoholics, and the use of wine at the LS would truly be counterproductive to their recovery. For that reason alone I would choose (if it were my choice) to use simple grape juice.

Good post.

We have some Jewish friends - I'm going to ask them if they consider fermented wine "leavened." Generally speaking, wine isn't mentioned in the Passover and the restriction against leavened items involves "eating" anything leavened (Ex 12:20). But, knowing the Pharisees as we do, I wouldn't say based on that verse alone they didn't prohibit fermented wine altogether too. Need to "bone up" on my understanding of Jewish tradition.

The second argument I've always found the most persuasive - doing nothing that would cause someone else to stumble. This argument, whether for drinking alcohol in general or at the Lord's Supper is, IMO the most persuasive, given society's attitude's against alcohol today - by that I mean if anyone sees a Christian drinking alcohol, the tendency is to consider that Christian a "hypocrite" for doing so (issue of "example"); and then there is the alcoholism issue too (issue of the "weaker member").

 

[Loveaboveall]

If anyone has read "50 yrs in the church of Rome" there should be no doubt in there mind that using alcohol in a worship service is just wrong. The most striking thing to me is that people would want to partake of something that is known to inhibit brain function, even in small amounts. During worship, is this acceptable? Can God's still small voice be heard after someone partakes of a drug that inhibits ones brain function.

Then there is always the issue with the "old wine" of Jesus' time not being anything close to the "old wine" of today in regards to alcohol content. But I will take it a step further and suggest that Jesus never would have partook of this drug just before going into the garden of Gethsemane where he was to be tempted beyond our ability to comprehend. This just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[aggie03]

Just to stir up the waters, just because something doesn't make sense to us does not mean that it could not be.

For instance, God wanting to forgive me of my sins does not "make sense". The horrible price he had to pay for my selfishness is something that no "rational" human being would do. I like talking with you all on here, but if it comes down to me choosing my son or you all, my son wins every time.

We have to get beyond our personal feelings in a discussion like this or we will only ever arrive at the conclusions and decisions that we have already made.

I hope that makes sense

 

[DerSchweik]

If anyone has read "50 yrs in the church of Rome" there should be no doubt in there mind that using alcohol in a worship service is just wrong. The most striking thing to me is that people would want to partake of something that is known to inhibit brain function, even in small amounts. During worship, is this acceptable? Can God's still small voice be heard after someone partakes of a drug that inhibits ones brain function.

Then there is always the issue with the "old wine" of Jesus' time not being anything close to the "old wine" of today in regards to alcohol content. But I will take it a step further and suggest that Jesus never would have partook of this drug just before going into the garden of Gethsemane where he was to be tempted beyond our ability to comprehend. This just doesn't make sense to me.

I think there is a good argument here - particularly w/r to hindered mental capacity. Even on the cross, Jesus refused the sponge mixed with wine (or gall, a weak form of wine) to quench His thirst or wet His parched lips.

 

[DerSchweik]

Just to stir up the waters, just because something doesn't make sense to us does not mean that it could not be.

For instance, God wanting to forgive me of my sins does not "make sense". The horrible price he had to pay for my selfishness is something that no "rational" human being would do. I like talking with you all on here, but if it comes down to me choosing my son or you all, my son wins every time.

We have to get beyond our personal feelings in a discussion like this or we will only ever arrive at the conclusions and decisions that we have already made.

I hope that makes sense

True Aggie. I would note that much of the "weaker brother" and "example" arguments basically deal with personal feelings and accommodating them w/r to what is "permissible" for us as Christians. While freed from the Law, we are still bound by the consciences of others to some degree and in certain circumstances.

 

[aggie03]

In Italy, every church that I know of uses wine when they take the Lord's Supper. There is no stigma about it there...unless you don't drink the wine.

I am very interested to hear what your Jewish friends have to say. I'll do some reading and see if I can find anything about the traditions of the day.

 

[aggie03]

True Aggie. I would note that much of the "weaker brother" and "example" arguments basically deal with personal feelings and accommodating them w/r to what is "permissible" for us as Christians. While freed from the Law, we are still bound by the consciences of others to some degree and in certain circumstances.

I absolutely agree with you.

This is a non-issue for me, really. Even if I thought that I had the liberty to use wine, I would never bring it up because of the trouble I know it would cause with my brothers and sisters where I worship.

However, I do enjoy discussing it and studying it with you all on here. I am very interested in this topic.

 

[DerSchweik]

I absolutely agree with you.

This is a non-issue for me, really. Even if I thought that I had the liberty to use wine, I would never bring it up because of the trouble I know it would cause with my brothers and sisters where I worship.

However, I do enjoy discussing it and studying it with you all on here. I am very interested in this topic.

There are a lot of similar topics to which this discussion applies. And I agree - it's both fun and edifying to discuss these things in other than a dogmatic manner. I think most of us feel this way, but there are topics too that we tend to get certain articles of clothing in a wad over. Bottom line, we've all the same Spirit, are all of the same body, and unity must survive after all the discussions are exhausted.

 

[crawfish]

If anyone has read "50 yrs in the church of Rome" there should be no doubt in there mind that using alcohol in a worship service is just wrong. The most striking thing to me is that people would want to partake of something that is known to inhibit brain function, even in small amounts. During worship, is this acceptable? Can God's still small voice be heard after someone partakes of a drug that inhibits ones brain function.

There are certain types of foods known to make you sleepy, if taken in sufficient quantities. And if you're sleepy during worship service, can you really partake of it? What about prescription drugs? Most of the time, they are taken for very legitimate reasons, but they can inhibit brain function as well.

I do agree with the gist of your point - we should desire to be in a proper state during worship. I think that to target only wine, especially in the minuscule amounts given during communion, is a bit biased. A sip of wine is not even as brain-altering as a cup of caffeinated coffee...yet you'd cause a revolution in church by denying them the latter.

I was a non-drinker for the first 35 years of my life. Only a few times in my college years - due to peer pressure - did I drink, and I never liked it. I discovered in my mid-30's that I did, in fact, enjoy the taste of wine, and now have a glass occasionally. I shared your views before; but since trying it, I've realized that at times I'm under great stress and unable to think, it actually sets my mind in a better state! When life's circumstances have taken my brain chemistry out of balance, in other words, it can help to right the ship, at least temporarily. (This is essentially the way that most anti-depressant medication works.) While I'd never drink wine before a worship service, technically speaking there are times when I'd be able to partake of the service with a better heart and mind if I did!

 

[crawfish]

We have some Jewish friends - I'm going to ask them if they consider fermented wine "leavened." Generally speaking, wine isn't mentioned in the Passover and the restriction against leavened items involves "eating" anything leavened (Ex 12:20). But, knowing the Pharisees as we do, I wouldn't say based on that verse alone they didn't prohibit fermented wine altogether too. Need to "bone up" on my understanding of Jewish tradition.

I'd like to hear from your friends as well. After some research, the results are...inconclusive. It seems that some fermented wines can be considered "kosher" because the yeasts are native to the grapes? At least according to one source. Another source says no. Should I be surprised that their variety of opinions are as disparate as ours?

 

[DerSchweik]

I'd like to hear from your friends as well. After some research, the results are...inconclusive. It seems that some fermented wines can be considered "kosher" because the yeasts are native to the grapes? At least according to one source. Another source says no. Should I be surprised that their variety of opinions are as disparate as ours?

LOL, "no" I'm thinking.

I'm remembering Paul's admonition to the Corinthians about when they got together to share bread. He scolded them for "getting drunk" basically chiding them to do their "eating and drinking" at home - not at the Lord's Supper. He is clear in I Cor 11 that the Lord's Supper is to be a time for personal reflection and remembrance of what the Lord did on our behalf, examining ourselves, whether our hearts are "right" in this regard, and follows on his primary focus of the Gospel with them:

"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."

It seems to me the whole discussion about wine/not wine/fermented/not fermented/juice, whatever is less an issue about what the Lord really desires than it is an issue about what we feel "proper religion" requires. I'm gonna get into a lot of trouble for saying that, but given the proportions of food and drink involved, compared with the purpose for taking them in the first place - it does beg the question: Which is more important? Remembrance and examination - or, form and function?

< Ducking low to avoid the inevitable >

 

[crawfish]

It seems to me the whole discussion about wine/not wine/fermented/not fermented/juice, whatever is less an issue about what the Lord really desires than it is an issue about what we feel "proper religion" requires. I'm gonna get into a lot of trouble for saying that, but given the proportions of food and drink involved, compared with the purpose for taking them in the first place - it does beg the question: Which is more important? Remembrance and examination - or, form and function?

< Ducking low to avoid the inevitable >

That could probably be said about MOST of our discussions.

Probably a good idea for a new thread on this forum.

 

[DerSchweik]

I'd like to hear from your friends as well. After some research, the results are...inconclusive. It seems that some fermented wines can be considered "kosher" because the yeasts are native to the grapes? At least according to one source. Another source says no. Should I be surprised that their variety of opinions are as disparate as ours?

Ok, here's our friend's take on it:

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']Wine is included in the Seder. There is kosher for Passover wine. Does it need to be Kosher / Kosher for Passover – depends on how religious. For us, not really. Beer is not kosher for Passover, I believe more for the grains than anything else.[/FONT]

I looked it up on Wikipaedia and wine is definitely a part of the Seder - everyone drinks 4 cups of wine for that. They also use wine for a number of their other celebrations. And "wine" is wine according to the Jewish sources I looked at - not grape juice. So that's interesting.

Not a reason or excuse for imbibing IMO, but interesting nevertheless.

The "kosher" aspect of wine making seems primarily a function of how the wine is made and who handles it. One key thing seems to be with how the wine is filtered, many of the common methods for filtering employ organic materials that are not kosher.

Also interesting is the fact that in Israel, "boutique" kosher wines are becoming popular now. Manischewitz is one of two major kosher wine producers in the US - which I tried in the Navy (BC) - definitely NOT non-alcoholic,

So all that is interesting - but I still appeal to Paul's admonitions about example and the weaker brother.