Messianism as a Judaism - How would that work?

[Yahudim]

I posted on this topic in another thread, but I would like to open this up to anyone that has knowledge and vision of how this might work. The premise has been put forth that, ideally, Messianic Judaism would in some substantial way, reflect the practice and community of Judaism, whether post Temple first century Messianic Judaism (which many conceded had no discernable hierarchical structure) or some manifestation of traditional Judaism. I would like to hear more on this topic.

This text is substantially the same as the original with some editing for clarity. Click on the arrow to see the original post.

Hi Max,

I was intrigued by your response and if you are willing, I would like a little clarification....

Keep in mind I want to know, not so much how you see Messianic Judaism paralleling modern traditional Judaism (well that too), but where you see Messiah Y'shua as He might best fit within modern Jewish observance.

First you agree that Messianic Judaism should be this sought after goal of including Y'shua (I presume with all of His attendant offices of authority: the promised, 'greater Prophet', Messiah Melech, that inherits the Throne of David, Cohen Gadol of the even greater order of Melchizedek, etc.), coupled with some form of traditional Judaism to complete the formula. Please correct me if I have misread your intent. But if this is correct, then should there be changes in the structure, hierarchy, liturgy, observance, etc., to accommodate the fulfillment of the Messianic offices of Y'shua?

Concerning the latter part, do you include modern Judaism in your projections and if so, in what form should it be implemented and observed by His modern talmidim prior to Messiah's return; Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist? Or should it attempt to mimic parts of all of those denominational aspects of modern Judaism? I suppose what I'm asking is, within what Yahadut Rabanit denominational alignment do you see Messiah Y'shua might best fit according to His known beliefs, teachings and style? I presume He would be Zionist after a fashion (being King and all), so for instance, are we talking Hardal or Haredi? Ashkenazic Hasidic (perhaps not)? Maybe Sephardic Mizrahim (being of Middle Eastern descent)? I don't know.

If your view runs to the ancient, whether with or without the Temple, we have some guidance from the historical record and scripture. But I presume the party of Herod is out. Obviously Messiah had some issues with the Tz’dukim of the day and assumed their previous leadership role in the 'Seat of Moshe' (somehow I think He won't need the help of the 70, but I could be wrong). He has been tenuously aligned with the P'rushim, so I know you have some thoughts on which school of thought He favored. So should Messianic Judaism seek to mimic the first century synagogues of believers, both Jew and Gentile? What exactly is this vision of where the Messiah of Messianic Judaism should fit within the framework of traditional Judaism?

How about the precepts of Christianity? I presume that at least some are acceptable, but which? Where does this should you endorse land? What does it look like?

Please understand, this is NOT a trap question. It is something that has bothered me for a great while and I would sincerely like to know where you think we should focus. Anyway, share that with which you feel comfortable. It will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Phillip

 

[Yahudim]

I suppose I should go on the record with my beliefs. Let it be known that I am a proponent of Messianism as Judaism. I think that it should be reflected in terms of community, liturgy, worship, praise, context and offices of service, regardless of ethnic background.

I believe that we have much to gain from traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity. But I also believe that there are many aspects of both that should not be incorporated into a modern Messianic community, most notably, offices of authority as opposed to offices of service. Let Messiah be our guide and the Father and His instruction, a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Let two or three speak and the synagogue decide.

Please understand that my beliefs are not up for debate. They are however, topics that I will discuss. So let's keep it clean. No rabbit punches or blows below the belt. Remember to break on the referee's instruction.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I suppose I should go on the record with my beliefs. Let it be known that I am a proponent of Messianism as Judaism. I think that it should be reflected in terms of community, liturgy, worship, praise, context and offices of service, regardless of ethnic background.

I believe that we have much to gain from traditional Judaism and traditional Christianity. But I also believe that there are many aspects of both that should not be incorporated into a modern Messianic community, most notably, offices of authority as opposed to offices of service. Let Messiah be our guide and the Father and His instruction, a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. Let two or three speak and the synagogue decide.

Please understand that my beliefs are not up for debate. They are however, topics that I will discuss. So let's keep it clean. No rabbit punches or blows below the belt. Remember to break on the referee's instruction.

You have the leftist which is the UMJC and the rightist MJAA.

The leftist UMJC although seeking to be more traditional seems to be going in the direction of the Torah is for Jews only and the like, Bi-esco theology etc.

The rightist MJAA far less traditional are a lot less with a 'not even concerned' attitude towards non Jews and a 'Gentile problem'(from my experience). A blend of churchy(evangelicalism) with added Judaism from my experience.

Perhaps for some not the best of both worlds?

Being raised Jewish a big difference if I was looking from the outside would be that there are many Gentiles in the synagogue. Secondly the 'order of service' is pretty much a Jewish order of service. It's after 'the order of service' when the music starts and there's room in the front for dancing, preaching etc. From someone from a traditional background that part would seem a little off the beat and path. Sort of reminds me of a Chasidic wedding without the wedding and without male and female separation.

 

[Yahudim]

Marc,

Thanks for jumping in. These are some good places to start. But sooner or later, I would like to bring the topic back around to Messiah.

You have the leftist which is the UMJC and the rightist MJAA.

The leftist UMJC although seeking to be more traditional seems to be going in the direction of the Torah is for Jews only and the like, Bi-esco theology etc.

The rightist MJAA far less traditional are a lot less with a 'not even concerned' attitude towards non Jews and a 'Gentile problem'(from my experience). A blend of churchy(evangelicalism) with added Judaism from my experience.

Perhaps for some not the best of both worlds?

If left is normally liberal and right is normally conservative, I would perhaps have reversed your example. But I understand the point and you are right. I would prefer a blend, but taking different elements of both.

Being raised Jewish a big difference if I was looking from the outside would be that there are many Gentiles in the synagogue. Secondly the 'order of service' is pretty much a Jewish order of service. It's after 'the order of service' when the music starts and there's room in the front for dancing, preaching etc. From someone from a traditional background that part would seem a little off the beat and path. Sort of reminds me of a Chasidic wedding without the wedding and without male and female separation.

As far as the concerns of the traditional Jew coming to a service filled with 'churchy' people, I get it. I think those without a Jewish background would benefit from indoctrination classes; the same sort of 'this is how to act' found in Acts 15. I personally think that this will address many of the concerns those from the Jewish community have about being around Gentiles.

So what do you think of separate seating? I can think of pros and cons, but it seems that this is how it was done early on. I wouldn't be opposed to separate services (kinda like a youth service) where those new to the 'Jewishness of it all', are raised up in the congregation as they attain a certain amount of decorum, context, education and maturity. Also, I am a strong believer in individual prayer and corporate praise prior to the start of the service. What do you think?

 

[anisavta]

I find Beth El of Manhattan a refreshing change. Although I have not been there and have gleaned my impressions from the rabbi's sermons only, they seem to have a handle on being a Jewish synagogue, reaching out to the Jewish community but accepting and respectful of their Gentile members too. They bill themselves as a conservative-style, two-Testament synagogue.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

As far as the concerns of the traditional Jew coming to a service filled with 'churchy' people, I get it. I think those without a Jewish background would benefit from indoctrination classes; the same sort of 'this is how to act' found in Acts 15. I personally think that this will address many of the concerns those from the Jewish community have about being around Gentiles.

I wouldn't say complete churchy and I don't mean churchy in a bad way just from a perspective of one looking from the outside. I said the order of the service is somewhat traditional, it's after the order of service. So depending what you're congregation is. I like the churchy charismatic with traditional. David danced and shouted, was leaping and spinning before The Lord the house of Israel was partying.

 

[Yahudim]

Interesting. If you find out more, please share! In the mean time, any personal views on the OP?

I find Beth El of Manhattan a refreshing change. Although I have not been there and have gleaned my impressions from the rabbi's sermons only, they seem to have a handle on being a Jewish synagogue, reaching out to the Jewish community but accepting and respectful of their Gentile members too. They bill themselves as a conservative-style, two-Testament synagogue.

 

[Yahudim]

I didn't take it in a bad way. I do a bit of singing and cavorting from time to time. Not a pretty sight. I was just saying that most people that haven't spent much time in the Jewish community would greatly benefit from...

...let's call it sensitivity training.

I wouldn't say complete churchy and I don't mean churchy in a bad way just from a perspective of one looking from the outside. I said the order of the service is somewhat traditional, it's after the order of service. So depending what you're congregation is. I like the churchy charismatic with traditional. David danced and shouted, was leaping and spinning before The Lord the house of Israel was partying.

 

[Yahudim]

What kind of synagogue do you think Y'shua would be most comfortable with?

 

[Yahudim]

Wow, I guess this must be one tough topic.

With all the members here who so vocal about the 'ideal' Messianic Judaism, no one seems to want to describe Messianic Judaism as it might best fit Messiah. I think this is strange. The absence of contributions is a little more than just surprising.

 

[pat34lee]

What kind of synagogue do you think Y'shua would be most comfortable with?

I think a more direct question is:

What kind of synagogue would accept Yeshua or his message today?

 

[MadMaxData]

whether post Temple first century Messianic Judaism (which many conceded had no discernable hierarchical structure)

Here we go again. Same thread, new title.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Pat,

I think a more direct question is:
What kind of synagogue would accept Yeshua or his message today?

...actually no. Asked and answered. As a matter of fact, that is the question I was trying to avoid. I asked the question the other way around for a very specific reason. It's not one we often contemplate.

Hi Max,

Here we go again. Same thread, new title.

No need to be cynical. What? I shouldn't have a perspective?

I asked this question in another thread as a response to your post:

You mean that is what it should be. That is certainly not what it actually is though. At least not yet.

Unfortunately, many MJ's want nothing to do with Judaism.

You avoided my questions there too. You were the one that brought it up. So why won't you share your vision?

 

[Yahudim]

Seems to be some confusion about the OP.

Perhaps I should phrase my query a bit differently. Instead of asking, 'In what congregation or synagogue would Y'shua be welcome?'; how about asking, 'What form of Judaism (or practices within it) do you recommend as those which Y'shua would approve?'

*Scriptural references would be appropriate for this discussion.

 

[etZion]

I posted on this topic in another thread, but I would like to open this up to anyone that has knowledge and vision of how this might work. The premise has been put forth that, ideally, Messianic Judaism would in some substantial way, reflect the practice and community of Judaism, whether post Temple first century Messianic Judaism (which many conceded had no discernable hierarchical structure) or some manifestation of traditional Judaism. I would like to hear more on this topic.

This text is substantially the same as the original with some editing for clarity. Click on the arrow to see the original post.


Keep in mind I want to know, not so much how you see Messianic Judaism paralleling modern traditional Judaism (well that too), but where you see Messiah Y'shua as He might best fit within modern Jewish observance.

First you agree that Messianic Judaism should be this sought after goal of including Y'shua (I presume with all of His attendant offices of authority: the promised, 'greater Prophet', Messiah Melech, that inherits the Throne of David, Cohen Gadol of the even greater order of Melchizedek, etc.), coupled with some form of traditional Judaism to complete the formula. Please correct me if I have misread your intent. But if this is correct, then should there be changes in the structure, hierarchy, liturgy, observance, etc., to accommodate the fulfillment of the Messianic offices of Y'shua?

Concerning the latter part, do you include modern Judaism in your projections and if so, in what form should it be implemented and observed by His modern talmidim prior to Messiah's return; Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist? Or should it attempt to mimic parts of all of those denominational aspects of modern Judaism? I suppose what I'm asking is, within what Yahadut Rabanit denominational alignment do you see Messiah Y'shua might best fit according to His known beliefs, teachings and style? I presume He would be Zionist after a fashion (being King and all), so for instance, are we talking Hardal or Haredi? Ashkenazic Hasidic (perhaps not)? Maybe Sephardic Mizrahim (being of Middle Eastern descent)? I don't know.

If your view runs to the ancient, whether with or without the Temple, we have some guidance from the historical record and scripture. But I presume the party of Herod is out. Obviously Messiah had some issues with the Tz’dukim of the day and assumed their previous leadership role in the 'Seat of Moshe' (somehow I think He won't need the help of the 70, but I could be wrong). He has been tenuously aligned with the P'rushim, so I know you have some thoughts on which school of thought He favored. So should Messianic Judaism seek to mimic the first century synagogues of believers, both Jew and Gentile? What exactly is this vision of where the Messiah of Messianic Judaism should fit within the framework of traditional Judaism?

How about the precepts of Christianity? I presume that at least some are acceptable, but which? Where does this should you endorse land? What does it look like?

Please understand, this is NOT a trap question. It is something that has bothered me for a great while and I would sincerely like to know where you think we should focus. Anyway, share that with which you feel comfortable. It will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Phillip

Great question, I think many never actually try to understand this very question. They simply assume it all works together, when in fact, it does not. In the most simple answer, to accept traditional Judaism as complete within itself, in light of what Yeshua has done and the revelation given by the Apostles, is in itself, to ignore what He has accomplished.

I think 'Bilateral Ecclesiology' Theory, is a form of trying to answer this question. But in the process, it simply chooses one side, it does not bring both sides to the table, it ignores the revelation of the Apostolic Writings and tries to accept the traditional Jewish view, saying the traditional Jewish view, needs no alternating, pushing the body of Messiah to the side... I think most know this will not work, traditional Judaism still will not accept them and they are distancing themselves from the body of Messiah. The One Law Theory, is adopting a form of Judaism, while acknowledging, the certain incompatibilities of traditional Judaism, that simply do not work with later revelation(the Apostolic Writings). For example, It is like a disconnect from history, it would be like trying to read the Torah, and only taking in the book of Exodus, it would be an incomplete picture and understanding and that is where we are today, where do we take the revelation that has come about through the work of the Messiah and the recordings of the Apostles and make it jive with traditional Judaism. I don't believe the Apostles or Yeshua invented a new religion, which is how some get around this issue, however they only create a bigger problem, but I do think Yeshua brought about an understanding and a correction to Judaism in that day, that was not heeded by the majority. Paul records in Ephesians, that the work of Messiah has been a mystery, and was not revealed until that time, which means a new understanding must shape and take place in Judaism, which by majority of Judaism, it did not happen.

With all that said, I think Judaism is the faith of Yeshua and the Apostles, I don't believe they ever intended for gentiles to separate from their Jewish brethren and then to create their own religion (Christianity), instead, I think they saw gentiles in the Messiah, as being brought into Judaism, without having to change their identity, and that Judaism had to take on adaptations within the framework of what the Messiah had accomplished.

I grew up attending a Conservative Synagogue, so I am more prone towards Conservative Judaism, I find in it more balance and mercy, especially in regard to the keeping of God's commandments. I am not against the other forms, I just think they are more intense on both sides..., from Orthodox, which can be very difficult with all the nuances of traditional commands, all the way to Reform, with very liberal views and a splash of tradition and no real regard for the commandments.

We all want the fix now, but I think it is clear, this is all going to happen on God's timing, we will just have to wait and see where it all leads, in the mean time, it will simply continue to grow.

 

[Yahudim]

Great thoughts etZion! In many ways, you and I agree. As the saying goes, the end is certain. It's all a matter of how we get there.

I wonder if you saw this post that I quoted below and if so, how you would respond to it?

Seems to be some confusion about the OP.

Perhaps I should phrase my query a bit differently. Instead of asking, 'In what congregation or synagogue would Y'shua be welcome?'; how about asking, 'What form of Judaism (or practices within it) do you recommend as those which Y'shua would approve?'

*Scriptural references would be appropriate for this discussion.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Great thoughts etZion! In many ways, you and I agree. As the saying goes, the end is certain. It's all a matter of how we get there.

I wonder if you saw this post that I quoted below and if so, how you would respond to it?

The question is can Messianic Judaism be the same as and in agreement with an Orthodox Judaism + Yeshua. I think the answer is no.

But the other issue is why do you have to be like XYZ anyway? I mean Messianic Judaism can be it's own Orthodox Judaism that is altered which wouldn't be entirely in agreement or will agree. But the disagreements will have the entity that you want to be like and be accepted by not be in agreement you're like us which can include not being accepted.

Bilateral Ecclesiology could work but with some modifications, maybe a more reformed Bilateral Ecclesiology. But that might not be accepted by my mishpucha because it's more like and I am using this term very loosely, New Covenant Judaism.

 

[etZion]

Great thoughts etZion! In many ways, you and I agree. As the saying goes, the end is certain. It's all a matter of how we get there.

I wonder if you saw this post that I quoted below and if so, how you would respond to it?

Perhaps I should phrase my query a bit differently. Instead of asking, 'In what congregation or synagogue would Y'shua be welcome?'; how about asking, 'What form of Judaism (or practices within it) do you recommend as those which Y'shua would approve?'

That is a bit of tedious task... In the most general terms, I would think anything that would not hinder anyone from coming closer to the Lord, whether it be traditions, teachings, status, etc.

 

[etZion]

The question is can Messianic Judaism be the same as and in agreement with an Orthodox Judaism + Yeshua. I think the answer is no.

Agreed, however this would be every form of Judaism... one of the biggest issues and was even in that period of time, was Yeshua's declaration to His Jewish disciples, 'to go and make' other disciples of Him from among the nations... No Judaism, not then and not now, would ever approve of such a thing, and no need from their perspective. It is good to note, that Yeshua was not contradicting the Torah, when He says in Matthew 5, that "you are the light of the World", speaking to His Jewish audience, this is Deut 4 in summation.

But the other issue is why do you have to be like XYZ anyway? I mean Messianic Judaism can be it's own Orthodox Judaism that is altered which wouldn't be entirely in agreement or will agree. But the disagreements will have the entity that you want to be like and be accepted by not be in agreement you're like us which can include not being accepted.

We can't be like XYZ anyway, it is a contradiction, we have to be of our own sect or formula.

Bilateral Ecclesiology could work but with some modifications, maybe a more reformed Bilateral Ecclesiology. But that might not be accepted by my mishpucha because it's more like and I am using this term very loosely, New Covenant Judaism.

I would be interested to hear how you think 'BE' might work? Although, I don't want to jeopardize this thread, so maybe a new thread...

 

[visionary]

The question is can Messianic Judaism be the same as and in agreement with an Orthodox Judaism + Yeshua. I think the answer is no.

But the other issue is why do you have to be like XYZ anyway? I mean Messianic Judaism can be it's own Orthodox Judaism that is altered which wouldn't be entirely in agreement or will agree. But the disagreements will have the entity that you want to be like and be accepted by not be in agreement you're like us which can include not being accepted.

Bilateral Ecclesiology could work but with some modifications, maybe a more reformed Bilateral Ecclesiology. But that might not be accepted by my mishpucha because it's more like and I am using this term very loosely, New Covenant Judaism.

Isn't it amazing that it is still so difficult to fit Yeshua in Torah.. is it because Orthodox Judaism changed Torah understanding to make sure that didn't happen. If so, then why should Orthodox Judaism represent the epitome of what Judaism is? I agree with you, Messianic Judaism is its own Orthodox Judaism, because it has to be to include Yeshua and His followers [Gentiles included] into His lifestyle, His Way, and His truth.