Mark 10:27

[Rescued One]

I'm pretty sure I agree with all five points, but I want to complain about advice from non-Calvinists and Name It, Claim Its wihout getting into a debate with one

Non-Calvinists used to say to me, "Pray about it," as if that would fix evey sorrow in my life caused by things my teenagers were doing. Well, I don't think it's always God's will to remove our trials. So God won't make the problem go away based on how good I am or how much faith I have, will He? So many times people quote Mark 10:27 as if I should believe it. I do believe it, but not out of context. Jesus was talking about rich people having trouble with faith in God. He was asked, "Who then can be saved?" The anwer was Mark 10:27. Yes God can save people! But how does that mean, "If you have enough faith, God will do it!" Now I know what I will tell these people, because I looked at the source just before I got online to ask this question. You see I ordered some cards with Bible verses to encourage people and realized that I can't accomplish everything based on that one verse. Because there are multiple cards in the box, I'm not going to send the Mark 10:27 cards.

Does anyone agree with with my understanding?

 

[Brother-Mike]

I'm pretty sure I agree with all five points, but I want to complain about advice from non-Calvinists and Name It, Claim Its wihout getting into a debate with one

Non-Calvinists used to say to me, "Pray about it," as if that would fix evey sorrow in my life caused by things my teenagers were doing. Well, I don't think it's always God's will to remove our trials. So God won't make the problem go away based on how good I am or how much faith I have, will He? So many times people quote Mark 10:27 as if I should believe it. I do believe it, but not out of context. Jesus was talking about rich people having trouble with faith in God. He was asked, "Who then can be saved?" The anwer was Mark 10:27. Yes God can save people! But how does that mean, "If you have enough faith, God will do it!" Now I know what I will tell these people, because I looked at the source just before I got online to ask this question. You see I ordered some cards with Bible verses to encourage people and realized that I can't accomplish everything based on that one verse. Because there are multiple cards in the box, I'm not going to send the Mark 10:27 cards.

Does anyone agree with with my understanding?

[wearing my official Club Calvin beanie and decoder ring]

Some thoughts:

1. What is the wording on those Mark 10:27 cards I wonder? i.e. if they're claiming that verse as some kind of proof-text for Name It Claim It then that's one thing, but the verse in itself carries an important truth and is certainly valid for spreading the Gospel in my opinion.
2. I'm all for active, constant, exuberant prayer. Pray with every living breath. But regardless of denomination to me it's a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of prayer to expect all prayer to be answered, or in the way that I'd expect. Praying for a banana-yellow Ferrari is just not going to happen. But if I was to pray for the wisdom to improve myself so that one day I might be able to briefly own a banana-yellow Ferrari (before turning the keys over to my Pastor as church tithing of course ), well, that's a different kind of prayer.
3. To me Mark 10:27, coming on the heels of the Rich Young Man parable, is simply saying that wealth won't get you into Heaven, nor being unwilling to let go of worldly treasures if directly called to do so. Only God can move to bring these people into the kingdom.
4. In fact, this parable seems to have nothing to do with prayer at all. And instead everything to do with idolatrous errors in priority.

My two cents at least

 

[Rescued One]

Brother-Mike, I'm trying to understand the verse. I appreciate the fact that you answered my post. I like to pray. I believe God answers prayer. I believe in His power. I just don't understand isolating that verse from the context and using it as a verse saying that wayward children will come around if you pray for them.

My parents were not Christians. Talking to either of them about Christ would not make either of then interested in Christianity.My mother didn't have Christian values and thought of Christ as a teacher while he was living. Period. Nothing more. She attended no church and never read a Bible. I told her that Jesus died for our sins. She said "I don't sin." I didn't pursue that because she didn't even know the ten commandments. And all my life I wanted to avoid arguments. I couldn't win an argument so I didn't see the point in it.

My father bragged about himself and his college education. He had graduated wih honors. He had become a staunch atheist and considered anyone who didn't have a college degree a loser.

My parents divorced before I entered third grade. My father went to college afterwards. He became an atheist and wanted his children to follow in his footsteps. I couldn't ask my parents advice about the Bible or Christian living. So I ask questions online. My mother had three husbands and six children --- I'm the only Christian of those six. My father was the parent of her first three children and one daughter(a Christian who died in her fifties) from his second marriage to a non-practicing Catholic.

 

[Rescued One]

[wearing my official Club Calvin beanie and decoder ring]

Some thoughts:

1. What is the wording on those Mark 10:27 cards I wonder? i.e. if they're claiming that verse as some kind of proof-text for Name It Claim It then that's one thing, but the verse in itself carries an important truth and is certainly valid for spreading the Gospel in my opinion.

The card has only the verse and not another word.

 

[Rescued One]

Calvinists, I need more input. Please.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

The first thing I would say is that, in my opinion, the issue regarding how certain non-Calvinists use Mark 10:27 has nothing to do with the doctrines of grace (i.e., the so-called "five points" of Calvinism). I mean to say that your comment was spot on, it isn't "always God's will to remove our trials." True enough. As a matter of fact, God's children are promised suffering because that is how we are built up into the image of the Lord of glory; and it is all for our good, that we may share his holiness (Hebrews 12:3-13). In other words, we're dealing with progressive sanctification here, not total depravity or election or the atonement, etc.

And I would also say that you're right, again, that "God won't make the problem go away based on how good I am or how much faith I have." That is very true, and grace is the reason. As Jerry Bridges so eloquently taught, God's relationship with you and how he treats you is without any regard to your sins or even your good works, for his grace looks only to the merits of Christ.

[God's grace] can neither be earned by your merit nor forfeited by your demerit. If you sometimes feel you deserve an answer to prayer or a particular blessing from God because of your hard work or sacrifice, you are living by works, not by grace. But it is just as true that if you sometimes despair of experiencing God's blessing because of your demerits—the "oughts" you should have done but didn't, or the "don'ts" you shouldn't have done but did—you are also casting aside the grace of God.

-- Jerry Bridges, Transforming Grace: Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love (Colorado Springs: NavPress, 1991), p. 33.

It is no longer of grace if the way God treats us is determined by our merits or demerits. "If you have enough faith, God will do it!" Such a wicked perspective that denies the grace of God. Whether God will do this or that for you is based on the plan that he has for your spiritual development. The quality and integrity of your faithfulness determines nothing for God, whose grace looks to the faithfulness of Christ.

 

[Rescued One]

The first thing I would say is that, in my opinion, the issue regarding how certain non-Calvinists use Mark 10:27 has nothing to do with the doctrines of grace (i.e., the so-called "five points" of Calvinism). I mean to say that your comment was spot on, it isn't "always God's will to remove our trials." True enough. As a matter of fact, God's children are promised suffering because that is how we are built up into the image of the Lord of glory; and it is all for our good, that we may share his holiness (Hebrews 12:3-13). In other words, we're dealing with progressive sanctification here, not total depravity or election or the atonement, etc.

And I would also say that you're right, again, that "God won't make the problem go away based on how good I am or how much faith I have." That is very true, and grace is the reason. As Jerry Bridges so eloquently taught, God's relationship with you and how he treats you is without any regard to your sins or even your good works, for his grace looks only to the merits of Christ.



-- Jerry Bridges, Transforming Grace: Living Confidently in God's Unfailing Love (Colorado Springs: NavPress, 1991), p. 33.

It is no longer of grace if the way God treats us is determined by our merits or demerits. "If you have enough faith, God will do it!" Such a wicked perspective that denies the grace of God. Whether God will do this or that for you is based on the plan that he has for your spiritual development. The quality and integrity of your faithfulness determines nothing for God, whose grace looks to the faithfulness of Christ.

Thank you. I've never read anything by Jerry Bridges. Maybe after Christmas I'll have some money.

 

[Don Maurer]

Calvinists, I need more input. Please.

Mark 10:23-27 (NASB) And Jesus, looking around, *said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus *answered again and *said to them, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?” Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

A direct answer to your question... "Does anyone agree with with my understanding?" ... would be yes.

Since the context is soteriological, the statement at the end must be understood in a soteriological way. In this context the phrase "enter the kingdom of God" (used 2 times) is parallel to the question "then who can be saved." (please read the verses above). The statement concerning all things being possible with God has to do with salvation. Specifically the problem of a rich man beings saved or entering the kingdom of God.

While I only posted the immediate context above, please go back to verse 17 for more of the context. Christ had an encounter with a rich man. The question was "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Again, the context begins with salvation, and then continues with the question of the disciples in verse 26 "who can be saved."

I see no reason not to take both the negative statement ("with people it is impossible,") and the positive statement ("but not with God; for all things are possible with God.") as having to do with salvation.

If you understand the doctrines of total depravity or original sin, the first part is easily understandable. Who can save themselves? If you understand who God is, then the 2nd part is obvious. God does have the power to save the most unsavable people. He can save a rich man, he can save Paul who persecuted the Church, and God can save me.

So then, I would agree that you answered your own question correctly. ("You see I ordered some cards with Bible verses to encourage people and realized that I can't accomplish everything based on that one verse.") In light of the fact that the verse relates to salvation, I would advise making this statement stronger. You said you cannot accomplish everything, but the verse says you cannot accomplish anything. Even your faith is the gift of God.
Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,