Led to Repentance?

[gmm4Jesus]

Rom 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?


Does God's kindness lead someone to repentance, before or after regeneration?

 

[stenerson]

Another Faith Precedes Regeneration thread?

 

[stenerson]

Okay, I'll play.

Paul instructs Pastor Timothy concerning false teachers:
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Why would I pray for God to grant them (grant means to give as a gift undeserved) repentance? It saids "perchance ", perhaps, in the hope that, peradventure, maybe, depending on what version you're using. They all mean the same thing, which is , that it is according to God's sovereign will whether he chooses to grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
Faith and repentance is part of the salvation package. Your efforts to dissect and claim some of this work as your own goes against scripture. Whatever good things are given you are gifts from God.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Rom 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?


Does God's kindness lead someone to repentance, before or after regeneration?

 

[hedrick]

Regeneration is God making us capable of responding to his call in faith. Conceptually that's prior to repentance and faith. But I don't see how regeneration would be directly visible in someone's life. Its signs would be various aspects of Christian life, which would include both repentance and faith. I believe the exact order in which things are visible differs from person to person.

 

[stenerson]

Yep. said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

The invisible work of the Spirit is mysterious and difficult to immediately observe.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Rom 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?


Does God's kindness lead someone to repentance, before or after regeneration?

 

[stenerson]

Rom 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?


Does God's kindness lead someone to repentance, before or after regeneration?

The sovereign granting of repentance to whom He chooses is made clear in the text I sited.
But long time believers also need to live a life of repentance and acknowledge that it's God's kindness working this in them.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

The sovereign granting of repentance to whom He chooses is made clear in the text I sited.
But long time believers also need to live a life of repentance and acknowledge that it's God's kindness working this in them.

So, you are saying that God's doesn't lead a person to repentance until after they are regenerated, correct? Your answer to the OP is "after".

 

[stenerson]

So, you are saying that God's doesn't lead a person to repentance until after they are regenerated, correct? Your answer to the OP is "after".

What I'm saying is that salvation is a complete work of God through His spirit. You're trying to divvy up the details, repentance, faith etc.
Repentance is a major factor in the work of the Spirit. Which is why we can pray that "perhaps God may grant them a spirit of repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." So how do they come the faith in the truth, according to this text? answer: by God "perhaps" granting them repentance.
Seeing the kingdom of God, entering the kingdom of God etc. is bought about by the work of the Holy Spirit.. Granting a spirit of repentance is a sure sign of His work.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Why do you refuse to clearly and simply state the order regarding regeneration, and being led to repentance?

Must you be regenerated in order to be led to repentance? Or,
Are you lead to repentance and then are regenerated?

Rom 2:4-6
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

 

[stenerson]

Why do you refuse to clearly and simply state the order regarding regeneration, and being led to repentance?

Must you be regenerated in order to be led to repentance? Or,
Are you lead to repentance and then are regenerated?

Repentance is a gift granted by God to who He wishes. I made that clear from the text. It's part of the regenerating work of the Spirit. Our eyes are opened to our poor and bankrupted nature, we change our minds concerning ourselves and God.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Is repentance simultaneous with regeneration?

 

[Ignatius21]

Why do you refuse to clearly and simply state the order regarding regeneration, and being led to repentance?

Must you be regenerated in order to be led to repentance? Or,
Are you lead to repentance and then are regenerated?

Rom 2:4-6
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

In the context of his whole epistle, Paul is writing these words you're citing, to the Roman Christians who are already baptized and practicing members of the Church in Rome. These come immediately after his lengthy description of the depravity of humanity in Romans 1, and in 2 he switches back to addressing them as "you," going on to essentially ask them "Why do you, then, pass judgement on all those around you, when you yourselves continue to practice unrighteousness. Then he proceeds to explain that justification before God is not a matter of keeping the law, but of having the faith of Christ. In Ch. 6 he reminds them that all who have been baptized have died to sin and are alive in Christ, and therefore must not continue in sin--although, as he points out in Ch. 7, it is a struggle between the old man and the new, between the spirit and the flesh. "Oh wretched man that I am!"

In the language of the early Church, in which "regeneration" was tied to baptism (and still is, apart from most Protestantism), since he is speaking to baptized Christians, he would appear to be describing repentance as something that must be happening in the lives of those who've been regenerated and justified Grace, through faith.

Regeneration isn't static, it's part of the lifelong process of being conformed to the image of Christ, through the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Nor is faith static. It has a point of origin in our lives, but it is dynamic, deepening and growing as we mature. "Lord, increase our faith!"

*** Sorry, I just realized this thread was in the Reformed subforum...followed a link from Soteriology forum. Oops!

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge

O Man whoever you are, means can be any man anywhere in the faith or out of the faith.

God's kindness is meant to lead persons to repentance, does not mean they repent. Jesus said God sends the rain and the sun on the evil and the good, meaning He shows kindness to both, but the evil are storing up a massive overflowing of wrath which awaits them.

We are to pray for those who despitefully use us that we my be sons of the Father in heaven who does good to those who hate him.
Matt 5

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[g] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God's justice is perfect. Romans 2 shows both the unrepentant evil unsaved working evil things and the ones who do good, those who are obedient to the gospel, then are doing good works which He created beforehand for them to walk in. The world is in rebellion against God's command to repent and believe Acts 17. God says in the hope they would seek for and find him, he made situations amenable for that to occur, but they do not seek for God do they. The condemnation is that the light has come into the world, but men love darkness rather than light.

God's justice is perfect, they refuse His kindness and don't repent, coals of fire are being heaped on their heads and they will burn.

v 5 unregenerate, not born again

v 7 regenerate, born again

v 8 unregenerate

v 10 regenerate

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

v10, those who work what is good, the same folk as Eph 2 v10,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul here is telling to all persons the justice of God will fall on unregenerate and regenerate alike, one will have wrath, the other glory, honor, peace.

Obviously the regenerate ones are the ones doing good, walking in good works God gave them to do.
You cant split out in Romans 2 when they were regenerated like you can show in Eph 2.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Rom 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?


Does God's kindness lead someone to repentance, before or after regeneration?

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.

All men are drawn to Christ.

The grace of God has appeared to all men.


All men are led to repentence.

 

[stenerson]

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.

All men are drawn to Christ.

The grace of God has appeared to all men.


All men are led to repentence.

All men are not led to repentance. Repentance is a gift granted by God. Which is why we are told concerning false teachers "correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

 

[catholichomeschooler]

All men are not led to repentance. Repentance is a gift granted by God. Which is why we are told concerning false teachers "correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[sdowney717]

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Titus 2, appeared to all men, that means jesw, greeks, romans, english, spaniard, indonesians, there will be some from every tribe of men in heaven.
Paul is writing about saved persons who Jesus has redeemed and purifies for Himself, for His sake.

Trained by Saving Grace

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

2 Peter 3, if you not again pulling ideas out of the context of scripture has to do with the beloved elect that God has called, not the world. The beloved elect is who God is not willing any persish but that all repent and believe.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 17, God commands all to repent, and earlier says

26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

See they should seek God, but no one seeks for God. So they are disobedient.

God is found by those who did not seek for Him.
Romans 10, a contrast between those who are regenerated in v20, and unregenerated in v21.

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Even to unregenerate persons, God shows kindness. This is in here to show that salvation to know Him is not coming from within ourselves, the truth must be revealed from His Spirit to ours. And that knowing Him is eternal life. Salvation is of the LORD.