My final statement may have to come in a a few post. It does NOT exceed 5000 words like I promised but it does go to 4,100 words and the computer will not let me post a single post on it.
So here is part one of my final Post on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass :
Well ladies and gentlemen and my worthy opponent Bread alone we have come to the end of this debate. It has been refreshing to get the facts about what both churches officially hold on this doctrine of the sacrifice of Mass. I have really enjoyed meeting bread alone and debating with him. I hope my explanations were clear and helped clear up the many misconceptions that Protestants have in regards to the Catholic view. I think we have both learned a lot from each other and I respect Bread alone for his honest display of Lutheran teaching.
So let me re-cap what we have learned in this debate so far and then I will respond to Breadalone.
To begin with we have learned that the Catholic Church does NOT teach or believe that the Mass is re-sacrificing Christ or Killing Christ again. We teach that Christ bled, suffered, and died once and for all. We also see that the Mass is another term for the Eucharist or the Lords supper used by Catholics. We see that the Mass is a actual participation in Calvary and is really Calvary re-presented itself on the Christian altars only under a different form(Bread and wine) as St Paul and showed us in 1 Cor 10. We saw that the form Christ choose to use to apply the graces and propitiation of his cross was bread an wine because Jesus was a priest after Melchisedeks order as the book of Hebrews shows us. We have clearly seen that the Mass/Lords supper is a real sacrifice and not just a memorial meal. We see this by looking at the very words of Jesus himself when he said “Do this in memory of me” and “this cup is the new covenant in my blood which is is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”. Jesus used sacrificial language to describe his Passover. We also saw that Jesus is a typological fulfillment of the new Passover lamb. One had to actually eat or commune with the real flesh of the actual sacrifice (Lamb) to have the angel of death Passover your house. We saw that Jesus himself being the new Lamb(Jn 1:29) told us me must do the same in the Eucharist to have eternal life(JN 6:53-58). Hence the Eucharist part of our salvation and sanctification because the Eucharist is the sacrifice of Calvary, its graces and propitiation made present to us today by Christ himself through his Body the Church.
We saw that the Sacrifice of the mass is propitiatory because it is a participation in the Sacrifice of Calvary and Calvary’s sacrifice was propitiatory. Jesus shows us the propitiatory nature of the Eucharist and its connection to the Calvary when he says “this is the blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
We saw that the Sacrifice of the Mass was formally predicted by the Prophet Malachi(Mal 1:7-11). And we most strongly saw that All the early Christians held to the mass being a real sacrifice and propitiation and not just a simple meal.
To view all the biblical and historical reasons for this teaching please everyone go back and re-read my opening statement which gives a ton of scripture and quotes from the early Church.
Essentially I feel I have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the mass is a real propitiatory sacrifice. Indeed it is Calvary and its graces presented to us today by Christ through his body the Church. For anyone who wished to learn more about the Catholic understanding of this I would suggest a few books.
1) “The Catechism of the Catholic church”. Our official teaching
2) “Not by bread alone” by Catholic scholar Dr. Robert Sungesis.(Sungesis is a former Presbyterian ministers who converted to the Catholic faith).
3) “Catholic for a reason Volume III Scripture and the mystery of the Mass” by Dr. Scott Hahn and his Students.
4) The faith of the early Fathers 3 volume set by William Jurgens.(Writings from the early Church)
Protestant sources showing the Mass is propitiatory sacrifice from scripture and the early church fathers:
1)“The Eucharistic Sacrifice” by protestant scholar Darwell Stone
2)“Early Christian doctrines” by Protestant historian JND Kelly.
I would add that the best book in print from a Catholic scholar on all things Catholic (Purgatory, Mary, Mass, Saints, Sacraments etc) is Called:’
“Catholic and Christian a explanation of commonly misunderstood Catholic beliefs” by Dr. Alan Schreck of Franciscan University.
God bless you all on your study! Please re-read the entire debate if you have any questions and please feel free to write to me. God bless you!
Now to answer my opponents questions.
And of course, here is where the main separation between Catholicism and Protestantism lies. Certainly, our participation in a work cannot save us! Whether or not we choose to perform or have performed on us the Sacrament is not a factor which determines our Sanctification. As Christ told St. Paul, it is our faith which sanctifies us:
'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. (Acts 26:15b-18; Emphasis mine.)
Clearly God chooses to give us salvation by his free gift of grace through faith and the sacraments as scripture shows. Now God establishes the sacraments as the “normative means” of salvation and sanctification for us. This does not mean that God cannot work outside of the sacraments to justify and sanctify a person. He does. Scripture doesn’t deny that. This also does not deny that we must also have a living faith in Christ to be saved. Salvation and sanctification are a process biblically. There are many things that sanctifiy us. For instance scripture shows us our faith sanctifies us. And that’s true but scripture also shows us that the sacrament of baptism sanctifies us too.
“And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”(1 Cor 6:11)
It isn’t a either or situation. Either faith or baptism. It’s a both and situation . Its both faith and baptism that sanctify and justify one as St. Paul shows. No doubt that it is the Holy Spirit who works through the waters of baptism to save you but the fact is it is through the waters of the sacrament of baptism that the Holy Spirit applies the grace of sanctification and initial justification to individuals. I no of no Lutheran who denies this. That is why they baptize infants as many Lutheran seminary students told me. So again the protestant is in a pickle here. Jesus Commanded us to baptize (Matt 28:19-20). Baptism is one of the normative means Christ gives his church for salvation. Baptism gives initial salvation and sanctification (1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5-7, 1 Peter 3:21). The Lutheran minister obeys Christ’s and administers baptism even to infants for their salvation. Is Baptism a work of the Mosaic Law then as Paul condemns in Romans and Galatians? If so then the Lutheran minister is in trouble as he performs baptisms for the salvation of souls(infants) obeying Christ command.
Baptism is the fulfillment of the mosaic ritual law of Circumsiscion(Col 2:11-13). Baptism is NOT a work of the mosaic law. It is the new covenant that replaces the old under Christ new law(Gal; 6:2) the law of love(Gal 5:6). This law of love includes Christ free gift us grace which is poured out upon us at baptism (Titus 3:5-7 Rom 6:23) not as a work of the law that binds us or by some great things that we do or boast about but rather as a gift that is given to us by Christ and commanded for our salvation. We simply obey Christ and perform the sacraments then out of humble obedience to him and his commands not out of a boasting set of works that we can do. It is Christ and his grace that do all the saving work of the sacrament to save us, we simply perform them out of obedience to Christ word.
Some fundamentalist Christians condemn Lutheran teachings on infant baptism and baptismal regeneration because they say that it is a work! But we know it is not! So why then can you not see that when the Catholic priest obeys Christ command and offers his Body and blood(Luke 22:19) on the altar that this is not a mosaic or boasting work? It is something Christ commanded. It is a free gift from Christ to us for our salvation and sanctification just as baptism is. Just like baptism the Eucharist applies the saving graces of Christ Cross to us.
And this fits in so perfectly with what we both believe! God grants all people the forgiveness of sins, and has justified all by the blood of His Lamb, Christ Jesus. What begins the work of Sanctification in our lives is the saving faith given to us by the Holy Spirit, for as the Word of God says, there is nothing we can do to choose Christ:
Here again is where we disagree. Perhaps we really need to debate justification from a biblical point of view because there is so much scripture illustrating the Catholic point of view on this. This gets into the mystery of predestination. God certainly does choose us but he does not muscle us over and make us obey him. There is also a sense in which we choose God. Our will is free. God calls us and gives us his grace which enables us to choose him or not but we must choose him (by the power of his grace) out of our own will in the end. Scripture is plain on this one:
“And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."(Josh 24:15).
Of course, because we are redeemed children of God and out of thanksgiving for this fact, we will continue to work out our Sanctification by doing what Christ commands! But not out of fear or necessity, out of love for Christ based on the fact that we have already been sanctified.
We do continue to work out our sanctification out of love and obedience to him, but we also continue to work out our salvation too out of fear and trembling.
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”(Phil 2:12-13)
We offer the mass out of love but we must also stay in a right relationship with God if we commit sin or else we too can be cut off (Rom 11:22, Heb 10:26-27). So we must obey as Paul says and work out our salvation with Gods grace, a living faith, and with the sacraments he gives us especially the Mass and confession. It is God that works in us to will and work for his pleasure and in obedience to him we offer his sacraments (the Eucharist) as a way of working out our own salvation by his grace because it is his Cross that propitiates our sins and the Mass is his Cross applied to us today in time and space.