Is it right for some WoF'ers to prohibit saying, "We are unworthy new creatures"?

[dominion2013]

Are we intrinsically unworthy before our Lord and ought we to acknowledge our unworthiness to Him?

Some WoF'ers are known to believe that it is wrong for born again people to state they are unworthy. However what does God's word say?

In Matthew 8: 8 when the Centurion confesses both his unworthiness and the power of His word, what does our Lord say? In Matthew 8: 10 He calls it a "so great" faith.

Moreover, our Lord says that He expected such a "so great" faith from the Israelites (Matthew 8: 10) as well who are God's children (Matthew 15: 24, 26).

Did man become unworthy owing to the fall or man is unworthy as a created being?

Quite a few Christians have lost significant blessings such as health etc.

Could it be because they have not realized that the grace that is necessary to receive blessings is given to the humble (James 4: 6)?


Now most Christian movements appear to have extremes. However the extreme which defies acknowledging one’s own unworthiness seems to be more serious, as it borders on pride and which we all know God resists.



Opinions from both WoF'ers and non-WoF'ers are invited. GBU all.

 

[Optimax]

Is it right for some WoF'ers to prohibit saying, "We are unworthy new creatures"?

You are free to "be" unworthy if ya want.

Might keep studying though so you can learn what the word says.

Start here;

2 Cor 5:21-6:1
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The 'ol "Mixed bag" again -

OF COURSE WE'RE "UNWORTHY". We WILL ALWAYS "Be unworthy" - we're HUMAN, and our Righteousness is nothing more that "Filthy Rags". Our "old Man" Was, IS, and will ALWAYS BE at enmity with God. It's NEVER reformed, cleaned up, or changed in any way. it WAS, however "crucified with Christ", and even though it's still present, big as life, we're TOLD that we're to "Reckon it DEAD", and take it out of control with God's help. If we "Walk in the Spirit", then we won't allow the "FLESH" to dictate our behavior.

ON THE OTHER HAND -

By way of the work of Christ on the cross - those of us who have placed our FAITH (not out belief only) in HIM are PERFECT IN THE SIGHT OF GOD - with Jesus' perfection. God looks at US, and Sees Jesus, since we're IN Jesus as Christians.

However, it IS a true statement, I think, that a great number of (maybe most) Christians don't really BELIEVE that they're "Perfect before God" in Jesus, and so invent, and demand "Performance based" worship in their Visible Churches, and try to EARN their righteousness (although they'd DENY ever trying something that FOOLISH. Of course they never will "earn righteousness" - we're SUPPOSED to "put on" Jesus' Righteousness - which is the ONLY righteousness we'll EVER possess.

 

[dominion2013]

Quote by Optimax: "2 Cor 5:21-6:1
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV":

Questions: That's a good verse. We are made "righteousness" in Him.

Ought we to confess to our Lord, "Thanks for making me righteousness by Your favor for which I am unworthy"? Isn't such a confession, a true acknowledgement of His grace which is a favor shown to the unworthy?

Wasn't it the Lord who gave the status & authority of the Centurion to the Centurion? However, did it stop the Centurion from acknowledging both the power in His word and his unworthiness?

Did the Lord say, "Now, Centurion, you are free to "be" unworthy if ya want?" Instead didn't the Lord appreciate his faith in acknowledging both the power of His word and his unworthiness, as a "so great" faith?

 

[Optimax]

Quote by Optimax: "2 Cor 5:21-6:1
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. KJV":

Questions: That's a good verse. We are made "righteousness" in Him.

Ought we to confess to our Lord, "Thanks for making me righteousness by Your favor for which I am unworthy"? Isn't such a confession, a true acknowledgement of His grace which is a favor shown to the unworthy?

Wasn't it the Lord who gave the status & authority of the Centurion to the Centurion? However, did it stop the Centurion from acknowledging both the power in His word and his unworthiness?

Did the Lord say, "Now, Centurion, you are free to "be" unworthy if ya want?" Instead didn't the Lord appreciate his faith in acknowledging both the power of His word and his unworthiness, as a "so great" faith?

The Centurion was not born again.

The Centurion understood authority.

That understanding is the basis for Jesus' comment about his faith.

 

[Alive_Again]

I look at it as depending where you are.

The repentant sees himself for what he is. He always falls short. Of course he's unworthy. That's all he knows, and in the presence of a holy God, that's his heart cry. "I'm unworthy". "You are holy." "You are worthy."

If you're at the place of (in need of) repentance, where everybody is at various time (hopefully). Then you're seeing where you departed from the holy highway. Where man's own foolishness takes him. At the awareness of all that he is, he says, "I'm unworthy!" (that's because "he lives"). Of course on our own, we're unworthy; but He is worthy!

It's not based on our worthiness anymore. If we sin and are convicted, we see ourselves again. We're very much aware that we're not walking worthy of the Lord. It's time to get back on the holy highway.

To go around presumptuously and sinfully and to presume righteousness is the high road. If you've repented and have been received, and you continue to say, "I'm unworthy!", that is the low road.

So depending on your heart condition and if you're actually WALKING in His righteousness, should determine whether or not to consider where "you" are. Otherwise, we're not to be considered. We're to consider our (unworthy) selves dead and alive unto God (where there is no unworthiness).

To not see yourself and just acknowledge, "He is worthy!" is always proper (unless you're being convicted for sin). It's not pride to no longer consider youself.

So if you're wearing white robes and saying, "You're worthy", that is the narrow path. If you're robes are defiled and you're saying, "Your are worthy", then that is the high road. If you're robes are white and you're saying, "I'm unworthy!", that (I believe) is false humility.

Everyone has to locate themselves in truth and see where they are in their walk. If they're walking the holy highway (in righteousness), then there is no need to acknowledge self.

People take the scripture about saying, "We're unworthy servants", but that passage is really saying, "We serve God and we're not hirelings!" It has nothing to do with any false humility.

 

[Alive_Again]

Having said all of this, it takes faith, having repented to believe (amidst the debris sin can bring, and the enemy and his accusations) to say things like: "I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus".

It presumes the "in Christ Jesus". I know some presume they're always "in Christ Jesus". But to "abide in Him" means to walk in His love. It's to walk worthy. Since everyone sins, then at the point of repentance, it's a trial of your faith to say that you're righteous (because it's based on His Blood, not your good deeds).

Quite a few Christians have lost significant blessings such as health etc.

I believe that if believers walk the "high road", bearing defilement and acknowledge righteousness and holiness, that it can disqualify you for blessings such as health and prosperity.

 

[dominion2013]

Thanks for your nice responses.

1) Quote by Optimax: "The Centurion was not born again.

The Centurion understood authority.

That understanding is the basis for Jesus' comment about his faith".

Question: That seems to be a good point. So it appears that the Centurion was right in confessing that he was unworthy whereas born again people ought not to say that.

However didn't our Lord expect such a confession from the Israelites who are considered God's children?

2) Quote by Alive Again: "Of course on our own, we're unworthy; but He is worthy!"

I appreciate that. I believe the statement agrees that we are intrinsically unworthy.

3) Quote by Alive Again: "To not see yourself and just acknowledge, "He is worthy!" is always proper (unless you're being convicted for sin)":

There is a point in that. However did the Centurion confess his unworthiness because he was a sinner?

4) Quote: "If you're robes are white and you're saying, "I'm unworthy!", that (I believe) is false humility:":

Are we worthy for the white robes? Wasn't the white robes given by His favor shown to the unworthy? Oughtn't we to acknowledge that truth?

I think the confession of unworthiness is not an expression which denies the thankful receipt of white robes that He gave as a favor to the unworthy but one which acknowledges His attribute, in that He gives blessings (in this case white robes) as a favor shown to the unworthy.

Does His attribute with regard to "giving" change? That is, after a person's conversion does our Lord change His attribute and start giving blessings based on that person's worth?

 

[dominion2013]

[FONT=&quot]Quote by Alive Again: “If they're walking the holy highway (in righteousness), then there is no need to acknowledge self”:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Question: I see your point. However, is there a difference between a healthy acknowledgement of self and an unhealthy one and one which is not truth? When the Centurion acknowledged his unworthiness, the Lord did not seem to stop him from acknowledging his self but rather called it a “so great” faith.[/FONT]

 

[Alive_Again]

[FONT="]Question: I see your point. However, is there a difference between a healthy acknowledgement of self and an unhealthy one and one which is not truth? When the Centurion acknowledged his unworthiness, the Lord did not seem to stop him from acknowledging his self but rather called it a “so great” faith.[/FONT]

I believe if you're in need of repentance, it is appropriate to cite your unworthiness (sinfullness).

As for the centurion, although he was a believer in the sense of recognizing Jesus and His power, I don't think it was the acknowledgment of himself that was the great faith. He said, "Speak the Word only", meaning he recognized the authority of masters and servants, especially in the military sense. The order is given, and it is a simple matter that it is carried out among those under Him.

It could be said that he had great faith to realize that a mighty King would extend His love and power to an unworthy man (from his standpoint). Then again, he probably has been witnessing or hearing of the miracles being exercised all around him.

 

[dominion2013]

Nice reply. Thanks for your time, Brother in Christ.

1) Quote by Alive Again: "[FONT=&quot]As for the centurion, although he was a believer in the sense of recognizing Jesus and His power, I don't think it was the acknowledgment of himself that was the great faith".

[/FONT]I appreciate your reasoning. However, as you would agree our Lord never makes such a differentiation explicitly.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Usually, as you know, when the altitude of a peak is stated in Meters (M), it is done so with reference to the mean sea level (MSL). If the altitude is stated without such a reference does the altitude in M make sense? I doubt.

Similarly, IMHO, which I believe is in line with His word, when "who our Lord is" and "what He has done" is stated alongside with "who we are", the praise and worship becomes founded on a "so great" faith and one which not just "pleases" Him but also "marvels" Him in addition (Matthew 8: 10).

2) Secondly, dear Brother, the word "unprofitable" in Luke 17: 10 is from the original word “a-chreioi” which means “useless” that is, opposite of usefulness (Just like 'a'-theism is the opposite of 'theism').

This is the word used in Matt 25: 30 (a-chreion) where the same meaning is implied, that is “useless” or "without worth".

That is, our Lord wants us to acknowledge that we are useless or unworthy even after having done everything that He commanded us to do. Why? This was because all that was done as commanded by Him was done only by the strength, wisdom, people etc that He had given us as a favor to the unworthy. Our Lord has stated that without Him we can do nothing (John 15: 5). Hence all the merit and credit goes to Him.

3) Now, what is False Humility? There are two types:

One type is where some Christians wear wear white clothing, refrain from wearing jewels just like the pantheistic hermits who do make a show of humility externally, whereas their heart refuses to lower themselves before the Son of God. This is false humility.

The second type is where insecure Christians who in fact do acknowledge their unworthiness but they do so with disgust and not with joy. Why? Because they hate themselves for who they are. They associate unworthiness to a vice rather than to truth. Such people would find it difficult to love others because without a healthy acknowledgement of His grace, that is one's own unworthiness and His favor, loving others becomes tedious.

4) In addition, there are those people who hate to acknowledge their unworthiness because of either pride or ignorance. They appear humble but are unable to acknowledge their unworthiness to the Lord. They think that free blessings make them worthy before the Lord and hence conclude they can approach His throne of grace "based" on their worth, to receive additional blessings. However, does such a mode work with God? GBU.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Alive_Again]

1) Quote by Alive Again: "[FONT=&quot]As for the centurion, although he was a believer in the sense of recognizing Jesus and His power, I don't think it was the acknowledgment of himself that was the great faith".

[/FONT]

I appreciate your reasoning. However, as you would agree our Lord never makes such a differentiation explicitly...

Similarly, IMHO, which I believe is in line with His word, when "who our Lord is" and "what He has done" is stated alongside with "who we are",

Of course it agrees with our inability and would be a recognition of two different beings with different abilities.

The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Matt 8:8-10

(Personally, I believe it was the declaration of the Word "only" that was the great faith.)

We do receive the divine nature by means of abiding in Him and as a result of the new birth. No individual gifting could accomplish that.

John the Baptist recognized that he wasn't worthy to do the shoe latchets. I believe it is part of the fear of the Lord intrinsically to be aware of who each party is. I think you can do that without an acknowledgment of that fact (although as each person feels compelled). I don't take it as a "low or high road" to now preface all of my prayers and actions with "I'm unworthy", although of myself, that would surely be true. I don't think it's in any way prideful to pray and not even think about unworthiness (at least most of the time). It would still be true, but not really something a family member would do (even one adopted, except maybe a time or two).

I know a child doesn't tell his father that he's unworthy, especially not repeatedly. He would consider him greater. A wife does not tell her spouse that she is unworthy (certainly not more than once, unless maybe if she transgressed.

Jesus emptied Himself of His divine privilege and ministered in the power of the Holy Ghost. Like the Holy Spirit, He proceeded from the Father and none of His prayers had any statement of unworthiness. He's our example.

I believe the Japanese culture has a tradition of bowing, one lower than the other, and longer to demonstrate one's "place" in the relationship. In a family (at least in America), such expressions would be considered unnecessary.

That is, our Lord wants us to acknowledge that we are useless or unworthy even after having done everything that He commanded us to do. Why? This was because all that was done as commanded by Him was done only by the strength, wisdom, people etc that He had given us as a favor to the unworthy.

From the standpoint of servanthood, not family, we do not do what we do from the standpoint of our own ability, nor for money. It is done for love.

Our Lord has stated that without Him we can do nothing (John 15: 5). Hence all the merit and credit goes to Him.

That is what Jesus said of the Father, and is certainly true of us. All of the glory does go to Him.

Really the whole "unworthy" thing I do not even think of. I just know it. If there were any question, I suppose I would think of it more often. (I'm not drawing a comparison)... but when I first came to the Lord, I used to say the "unworthy" thing a lot, because I did not have it built into my spirit about righteousness, and I was recently "adopted" into the family.

As far as the "false humility" thing. Each person must examine himself and determine where they are in the fear of the Lord. I know their are "courtly ways" and it is preferred that they are observed.

I know that Rick Joyner bit where the Lord was annoyed at him looking at himself that he felt lost (and unworthy). That was because he was looking at himself and Jesus said that will always make you appear (as you are) next to the King. He was supposed to not really be considering himself.

I don't think it is a slight to not mention the unworthy thing, but there are many expressions of His greatness compared to us and they are all true and worthy considerations of who He is.

 

[dominion2013]

Thanks for your valuable points that helps to ponder & meditate further.

1) Quote by Alive Again: "(Personally, I believe it was the declaration of the Word "only" that was the great faith.)":

Whether the confession of his unworthiness is considered by the Lord when He said, "great" faith, can be known from Matthew 15: 26 -28 where yet again our Lord appreciates another person, who has affirmed her faith in Him as the Messiah, not just for faith but for a "great" faith. Now, this woman also lowered herself almost to a puppy dog!

Moreover, James 4: 6 states that Lord gives grace to the humble. Humility is "lowering oneself".

2) Quote by Alive Again: "I know a child doesn't tell his father that he's unworthy, especially not repeatedly":

I appreciate your agreement in principle. Now, the issue is not about the repeated saying to the Lord, "I am unworthy". There is a more important issue. And that is the outright denial of that truth. Probably you would be surprised to find that many in the church at large especially by some in the WoF movement deny that!

3) Quote by Alive Again: "He proceeded from the Father and none of His prayers had any statement of unworthiness":

Our Lord was not intrinsically unworthy at any time in eternity. He clothed Himself with the human nature and human body but "He" was "all worthy". If he says that "He" is unworthy, He would not stating the truth.

But "we" will through all eternity, kneel before Him, fall before Him, lay our crowns before Him, worship Him etc. We cannot imitate the Son of God in "all" matters.

We might be "in" Him but does that rob us of our identity as a creature and rob Him of His identity as the Creator? Denying this truth, is slowly creeping into, as a king-size problem among some people in enthusiastic movements.

4) Quote by Alive Again: "I know that Rick Joyner bit where the Lord was annoyed at him looking at himself that he felt lost (and unworthy)":

Scripture must not be explained from Japanese or American culture. No humility no grace. Simple. The world especially the west better wake up to this truth about humility or else no potentials apart from His grace can save anyone.

Now, the Lord was annoyed at him because when a person feels disgust in acknowledging the truth of unworthiness, then the person cannot be used by the Lord in His kingdom. That was what happened to Moses. But a person secure in Christ will not fear to lower himself. It takes courage by His grace to lower oneself and say, "Lord thanks for making me righteous though I am unworthy".

Post conversion are we going to say, "Lord, I am now worthy. I need a blessing. I come to Your throne of grace "based" on my worth. Do bless me "based" on my worth". Moreover I am going to relate to You as a "worthy" person. Lord, do You think that a worthy person would kneel and prostrate before You. I do not think so"?

 

[Alive_Again]

"And, for the first time, I actually looked into Jesus' eyes. Many times when relating this experience I am asked, "What did His eyes look like?" All I can say is that they looked like wells of living love. It seemed as if one could see half a mile deep into them, and the tender look of His love is indescribable. As I looked into His face and into His eyes, I fell at His feet."

"I noticed then that His feet were bare, and I laid the palms of my hands on the top of His feet and laid my forehead on the backs of my hands. Weeping, I said, "0 Lord, no one as unworthy as I should look upon your face!"

"Jesus told me to stand upright on my feet. I stood up. He called me worthy to look upon His face, because He had called me and had cleansed me from all sin."
Kenneth Hagin - I Believe in Visions

When we see ourselves and our limitations and failures, the first thing we realize next to His perfection is our unworthiness to be sons and daughers.

I think it takes a lot more faith to stand upright and consider yourself worthy BECAUSE of what He did, not because of who I am.

Here's an answer as to why some ministers (even of the healing Word, no doubt) go home early...

"He said that some ministers He has called to the ministry live and diewithout getting into even the first phase He has for them. Jesus added that is one reason why many ministers dieprematurely — they are living only in His permissive will!"
(Kenneth Hagin - I Believe in Visions)

...There is a more important issue. And that is the outright denial of that truth.
...Probably you would be surprised to find that many in the church at large especially by some in the WoF movement deny that!

I can't say that I've ran across one. Just because people don't preface what they say with "I'm unworthy" doesn't mean that they're prideful, forgetful, or lack humililty.

As far as comparisons with oriental culture, in a traditional sense, these cultures tend to acknowledge one's place before interaction takes place. When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He never said a Word about anyone else recognizing their unworthiness. There can be a inward humility that comes with a proper fear of the Lord.

We might be "in" Him but does that rob us of our identity as a creature and rob Him of His identity as the Creator? Denying this truth, is slowly creeping into, as a king-size problem among some people in enthusiastic movements.

I don't see anyone really denying their identity as a small human person with no abilities, save the ones they received; no avenue to God, save the Blood of Jesus.

...That was what happened to Moses. But a person secure in Christ will not fear to lower himself. It takes courage by His grace to lower oneself and say, "Lord thanks for making me righteous though I am unworthy".

I cannot speak for others, but I can't imagine someone entering into the presence of God and not realizing grace. I think that you somehow imply that a lack of outward recognition indicates the lack of lowering oneself. It's all about the heart condition, and each person only knows where they stand (even silently) before God.

 

[now faith]

I did not realize this was a WOF debating WOF forum.

 

[TasManOfGod]

First thing to recognise is what is the definition of "we"

 

[dominion2013]

1) Quote: "Weeping, I said, "0 Lord, no one as unworthy as I should look upon your face!"":

Guilt, lack of knowledge of the truth that one is forgiven by the Lord and believing that unworthiness comes due to sin makes it difficult for a person to see the Lord and also state that they are unworthy too.Such a feeling is different from the humility exhibited by the Centurion and the saved Canaanite woman.

2) Quote: "When we see ourselves and our limitations and failures, the first thing we realize next to His perfection is our unworthiness to be sons and daughers":

Unworthiness due to limitations as a creature is different from the feeling of unworthiness due to sin which is a moral failure are entirely different. A healthy realization of the truth of our unworthiness due to our limitations as a creature would not hinder us from facing the Lord as did the Centurion.

3) Quote: "I think it takes a lot more faith to stand upright and consider yourself worthy BECAUSE of what He did, not because of who I am":

Grace is "favor given to the unworthy". God's favor is seen through what He has done for us. Faith is believing both parts of grace, that is, our unworthiness and His favor.

Believing and confessing just what He did for us without realizing and understanding our unworthiness is not an exercise of faith in His grace but just an exercise of faith in His favor.

Grace is said to be given to the humble and not to those who just acknowledge His favor.

4) Quote: "Here's an answer as to why some ministers (even of the healing Word, no doubt) go home early...":

People and ministers go home early not just because they have not exercised faith in His favor (favor seen in what He has done for them) but also because of lack of humility by refusing to lower themselves before the Creator.

5) Quote: "Just because people don't preface what they say with "I'm unworthy" doesn't mean that they're prideful, forgetful, or lack humililty":

The character called humility has an underlying script in the mind. All behaviors are expressions of what people believe in their mind. Even non-Christians are humble and modest and sometimes far better than some Christians.
Such an external sign of humility is what man sees. But the Lord sees the internal script.

6) Quote: "When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He never said a Word about anyone else recognizing their unworthiness":

Limiting the Lord's teaching on prayer to just Matthew chapter 6 is not Biblical. Luke 17 and other passages also contain His teaching on prayer.

7) Quote: "I think that you somehow imply that a lack of outward recognition indicates the lack of lowering oneself":

Our Lord appreciated those who both lowered themselves by their script of humility in their mind and also outwardly acknowledged their script through words and/or actions. He never corrected the humble by saying, Come on, you are not unworthy" though He sought to correct the state of sin by instructing to sin no more.

 

[Alive_Again]

...A healthy realization of the truth of our unworthiness due to our limitations as a creature would not hinder us from facing the Lord as did the Centurion.

Grace is "favor given to the unworthy".

Believing and confessing just what He did for us without realizing and understanding our unworthiness is not an exercise of faith in His grace but just an exercise of faith in His favor.

Grace is said to be given to the humble and not to those who just acknowledge His favor.

What this whole thing seems to boil down to is whether or not one sees themselves in the proper way before God, both He and ourselves. Just because one does not state this does not mean that there is a lack in the proper heart/mindset (true humility).

If grace is given, it would seem that humility is present (seeing that this is the requirement).

Limiting the Lord's teaching on prayer to just Matthew chapter 6 is not Biblical. Luke 17 and other passages also contain His teaching on prayer.

Of course we can't do that, but this is an occasion of an example of prayer where no such statement was made.

We have to be careful not to imply that people lack humility because no mention of unworthiness is present. Only God sees the heart and anyone who has any idea of where he/she came from and Who God is, isn't likely to act like they belong on their own character traits (or even expression of godliness).

 

[dominion2013]

1) Quote: "Just because one does not state this does not mean that there is a lack in the proper heart/mindset (true humility)":

Response: When teaching on faith, both the parts have to be taught. By both the parts, I mean the favor of the Lord seen through ALL that He has done for us by His passion and death PLUS the healthy acknowledgement of one's unworthiness before the Son of God.

Now, is the humility part of learning to acknowledge one's own unworthiness, taught? I doubt.

Rather, the unworthiness part is despised as false humility etc etc. Yes, we have to shun the false assumptions when acknowledging unworthiness but we also need to teach the correct assumptions involved in acknowledging one's unworthiness.

2) Quote: "If grace is given, it would seem that humility is present (seeing that this is the requirement)":

Response: IMHO, I believe that prominent faith Teachers and healers would have remained healthy all their life and need not have hid their sicknesses, if they had received His grace.

3) Quote: "Of course we can't do that, but this is an occasion of an example of prayer where no such statement was made":

As you know, the Bible is not a technically presented manual. God's word came to humans as an when the need arose. God's word is more personal rather than like an Engineering project work / dissertation. Scripture has to be taken on the whole.

When God spoke to man through His Son, He did it not only through words and discourses but also through deeds and actions.

4) Quote: "We have to be careful not to imply that people lack humility because no mention of unworthiness is present":

Lack of humility does not only appear because of the absence of the verbal mention of unworthiness. It also appears very explicitly when people verbally deny their intrinsic unworthiness before the Lord.

Secondly, lack of humility does appear when people verbally confuse between the unworthiness due to sin and guilt AND the unworthiness owing to being a created being. They do not understand that the unworthiness due to sin is something that ought to be remedied WHILE the unworthiness owing to being a creature is a truth which ought to be acknowledged.

I think IMO, we also have to be careful not to imply that people lack pride and are humble just because they appear to be humble and modest externally. Such a false implication that all Christians are humble, will hinder us from assessing their internal scripts and teaching them the foundational truth that grace is given to the humble, especially to our WoF Brethren.

 

[dominion2013]

Quote by TasManOfGod: "First thing to recognise is what is the definition of "we"":

Could you please elaborate a more on your statement? That could help to understand and respond.