Is God Unjust in Human Terms?

bcbsr

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Is God Unjust in human terms?

If in human terms it is unjust to reckon guilty those innocent of the crime or crimes of which they are accused, does Calvinism portray God as unjust?

For example Christ was innocent of committing sin and yet Calvinists interpret the Bible to say that he was subject to God's wrath, God being portrayed as deceiving Himself into believing Jesus was actually guilty of the sins of the world, and thus victimized the innocent.

Likewise regarding their view of the imputation of Adam's guilt. While people should be held accountable for their own sins, as indicated in De 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin", it seems Calvinism portrays God as committing an act of injustice (in human terms) by imputing the guilt of Adam's sin to his descendants. (Shouldn't the Bible rather be interpreted in light of God's character rather then being interpreted in light of the tenets of Calvinism?)

What is the Calvinist answer to whether God is unjust in humans terms?
 

Skala

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Is God Unjust in human terms?

If in human terms it is unjust to reckon guilty those innocent of the crime or crimes of which they are accused, does Calvinism portray God as unjust?

For example Christ was innocent of committing sin and yet Calvinists interpret the Bible to say that he was subject to God's wrath, God being portrayed as deceiving Himself into believing Jesus was actually guilty of the sins of the world, and thus victimized the innocent.

Likewise regarding their view of the imputation of Adam's guilt. While people should be held accountable for their own sins, as indicated in De 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin", it seems Calvinism portrays God as committing an act of injustice (in human terms) by imputing the guilt of Adam's sin to his descendants. (Shouldn't the Bible rather be interpreted in light of God's character rather then being interpreted in light of the tenets of Calvinism?)

What is the Calvinist answer to whether God is unjust in humans terms?

Jesus willingly substituted himself in the place of sinners. Jesus, being God himself (2nd member of the Trinity) was part of the "Design process" as it were for salvation. Nobody "Tricked" anybody.

If you reject the idea that Jesus was punished in someone else's place, then you aren't' rejecting Calvinism, you are rejecting the Bible:

Some portions of Isaiah 53:

But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,

and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.


by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities

because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors


John 11:51-52:
51Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

Further, your rejection of the substitution ignores one of the major themes of the Old Testament, something God himself designed and implemented: the sacrificial lamb. The Israelites would place their hands on a lamb (symbolizing their sins being transferred to it) and they would sacrifice the lamb. The innocent dying for the guilty. The sins being transferred.

The innocent dying for the guilty is the most important theme in the entire Bible. Our entire salvation is based on that ideology.

The New Testament authors even recognized this as you can see in 1 Peter 1:19 Peter calls Christ "the spotless lamb of God". And John in John 1:29 calls Jesus the "Lamb of God". They are making reference to God's own design of the sacrificial lamb where the Israelites were to find a lamb without any spot or blemish to use for the ritual. You can read about this is Leviticus chapter 1 and also chapter 22. Also, Exodus 29 I believe.

In the New Testament we see in Hebrews that this same theme is emphasized:

The writer of Hebrews says, "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant"

As you can see, yet again Jesus acting as his role of our Priest is likened to the same Old Testament system where something innocent (an animal) would die on behalf of the guilty for the purpose of ATONEMENT.

As for your understanding of original sin, please note that this doctrine is not unique to Calvinism, but is orthodox. Even (some?) Arminians believe in Original Sin. (that we are guilty for Adam's actions)

If you reject Original Sin, then you have a big problem on your hands because the Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus is "Adam #2". He teaches that just as we are guilty for Adam #1's actions, (our condemnation), we are also saved by Adam #2's actions. (our salvation in Jesus)

If you reject that Adam's actions affected you, then you must also reject that Christ's actions affected you too.

In other words, if you reject Original Sin, you also reject salvation itself.

It is inconsistent to be angry that God finds you guilty for Adam's actions, but to be OK with God finding you innocent because of Christ's actions (Christ lived a sinless life on your behalf)
 
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bcbsr

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Thanks for sharing your INTERPRETATION of the Bible. I, and others, have our own interpretation of those passages. And by the way, whole denominations, like the Orthodox Church and Southern Baptist reject the idea of people being imputed with the GUILT of Adam's sin. And if you look up "Penal Substitution" in Wikipedia and theopedia, they both indicate "The Penal-Substitution Theory of the atonement was formulated by the 16th century Reformers".

Furthermore you did not explicitly answer my question.

Are you saying, Yes, according to Calvinism God is unjust in human terms?
 
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BryanW92

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And if you look up "Penal Substitution" in Wikipedia and theopedia, they both indicate "The Penal-Substitution Theory of the atonement was formulated by the 16th century Reformers".

You're right. Prior to that, the Ransom Theory of Atonement was popular. Read up on that and you'll find that the Penal Substitution Theory makes much more sense.
 
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bcbsr

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Those are not the only theories. For an even more reasonable theory, which, unlike Calvinism, doesn't marginalize God's character, see http://bcbsr.com/topics/atonement.html, which if Byran's theory is correct that what makes most sense corresponds to the best interpretation, it would be most convincing to reasonable people.
 
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BryanW92

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unlike Calvinism, doesn't marginalize God's character, .

Your strawman arguments are getting tiresome. Calvinists have the utmost respect for God's character. You're the only one here that says we don't and you are not a Calvinist.
 
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bcbsr

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What argument? I'm just asking the question. Do Calvinists hold that God is unjust in human terms? Is it too difficult a question for Calvinists? Is there some reason why you're evading the question?

Elsewhere I've asked this question of Calvinists and they admit freely, yes, God is unjust in human terms. One even said thank God that he is unjust, else he wouldn't be merciful. But what do you say?

Are up for a debate concerning God's judicial nature on this "Debate with a Calvinist" forum? Or is that topic forbidden on this forum? Is there a Calvinist who is willing to debate with me on this issue?
 
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BryanW92

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What argument? I'm just asking the question. Do Calvinists hold that God is unjust in human terms? Is it too difficult a question for Calvinists? Is there some reason why you're evading the question?

Elsewhere I've asked this question of Calvinists and they admit freely, yes, God is unjust in human terms. One even said thank God that he is unjust, else he wouldn't be merciful. But what do you say?

Are up for a debate concerning God's judicial nature on this "Debate with a Calvinist" forum? Or is that topic forbidden on this forum? Is there a Calvinist who is willing to debate with me on this issue?

I thought I answered that in the other thread, but here goes: God is not judged by humans, so it doesn't matter if we think that he is just in our terms, especially contemporary terms where were consider spanking to be child abuse or questioning a spouse on where the money went to be domestic abuse. Our sense of justice is corrupted by our nature and, in modern times, by our politics and comfortable lifestyles.

So there is no answer to your question because the premise for the question does not admit the greatness of God and his place in the universe in relation to ours.

However, if I was to say that I think God is unjust in "human terms" then I would also say that I am glad that he is unjust because the only just outcome for humans is condemnation and eternal separation from him.

Now, with that answered, why is it so important for you to debate Calvinists? Your website makes it clear that you have been fighting Calvinists for a very long time and you obviously have a well-developed set of arguments. It's not very Christian of you to go from forum to forum, finding Calvinist laity to use your arguments on over and over again. Why don't you take this up with a scholarly Calvinist and have a one-time winner take all debate? You are basically a theological bully. Give someone like Ligonier Ministries a call and see if someone there will debate you? I would love to see your well-developed arguments face off against theirs.
 
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bcbsr

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Speaking of that other forum, there was a man, grasping after the wind, who took the same position as you and said, "Thank God that God is not just or we'd all be in trouble. Instead He is merciful." And I responded asking the group, "Is that a Calvinist position, that God can't be both just and merciful?" And a "BryanW92" responded "No. The Calvinist position is that he is just and merciful." (A relative of yours? Someone steal your handle?) Maybe you should talk to the ByranW92 of that forum. For the "BryanW92" of this forum states, "I am glad that he is unjust because the only just outcome for humans is condemnation and eternal separation from him."

And I find it further baffling that you object to me seeking to debate a Calvinist on this "Debate a Calvinist" forum setup by Calvinists themselves. Is Calvinism so feeble that it can't deal with the simple points I'm making? Are you so insecure in your theology?
 
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BryanW92

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Yes I am insecure in my theology. Unlike you, I have not devoted significant time building websites to argue against other people's theology.

In my previous post, I said nothing about God's mercy. I stand by my post in the other thread that God is just and merciful, by his own standards. I also stand by my statement that "human terms" are corrupted by sin and politics, but that his are pure and unchanging.

But, as usual, your creative editing leaves out the part where I said that, if we must judge him by human terms, then I'm glad that he's unjust (in our terms).

I have no objection to you debating. I'd just like to see you debate someone who is as well-prepared for the debate as you are.
 
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Is God Unjust in human terms?

If in human terms it is unjust to reckon guilty those innocent of the crime or crimes of which they are accused, does Calvinism portray God as unjust?

For example Christ was innocent of committing sin and yet Calvinists interpret the Bible to say that he was subject to God's wrath, God being portrayed as deceiving Himself into believing Jesus was actually guilty of the sins of the world, and thus victimized the innocent.

Likewise regarding their view of the imputation of Adam's guilt. While people should be held accountable for their own sins, as indicated in De 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin", it seems Calvinism portrays God as committing an act of injustice (in human terms) by imputing the guilt of Adam's sin to his descendants. (Shouldn't the Bible rather be interpreted in light of God's character rather then being interpreted in light of the tenets of Calvinism?)

What is the Calvinist answer to whether God is unjust in humans terms?

I am not a Calvinist but I think that yes God is certainly unfair in human terms but that does not mean human concept of fair and just is always the right one.

I do think it a bit far fetched that God sent Jesus here as a sacrifice only for the precious few that he already knew who they were , knowing he was completely powerless to save that which could not be saved.
That he decided who were to be dammed seems very odd to me since as with all un-savable sinners ( and that is what they certainly would be ) they would be doing God's will by not doing his will , that to me seems illogical and contradictory and that God is incapable of saving the un-savable , that makes him limited therefore ' not all powerful.
 
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