I am a tad confused on the scriptures...

[SoldierKG]

The Genealogy of Jesus.
I was studying my Bible, and I came across some things in the Bible (the NT) pertaining to the Messiah-ship of Christ based on his genealogy. According to his genealogy, Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I am confused about this.



What do we say about this? The Bible says (based on genealogies) that Jesus is not the Messiah.


1. Luke's version-Jesus descended from Nathan but the Messiah MUST descend from Solomon (1 Chronicles 28:6-7), therefore according to Luke's genealogy Jesus cannot be the Messiah.

2. Matthew's version-Jesus descends from Jeconiah who is cursed to be childless (Jeremiah 22:28-30).

So based on Luke's Genealogy according to the Bible if Jesus descended from Nathan (Son of David) than he CANNOT be the Messiah. Based on Luke's genealogy if Jesus came from Jeconiah-- no wait, he can't come from Jechoniah because God cursed Jeconiah to be childless.


Now I am confused about the Messiah....

 

[ContentInHim]

In the verses of 1Chronicles, I don't see where Messiah had to come through Solomon. Indeed, Solomon did not continue to keep all the commandments and descended into idolotry. So Messiah was descended through Nathan by blood and through Solomon by law.

 

[SoldierKG]

In the verses of 1Chronicles, I don't see where Messiah had to come through Solomon. Indeed, Solomon did not continue to keep all the commandments and descended into idolotry. So Messiah was descended through Nathan by blood and through Solomon by law.

In 2 Samuel 7 God speaks to David saying that he will establish his throne forever through the one who build a house for God (ie Solomon's temple). God later speaks of how he will forgive the one who is promised the eternal throne (Solomon) lenience when he sins for the sake of preserving the covenant God created with David. OK so I read through Kings about Solomon, and yes the Lord did promise to establish the throne of Solomon forever.

 

[HypnoToad]

In 2 Samuel 7 God speaks to David saying that he will establish his throne forever through the one who build a house for God (ie Solomon's temple).

It doesn't actually say that. The "he" of verse 13 refers to David's "seed", and doesn't have to be one specific person. David's seed did build the temple, and David's seed was established forever.

God later speaks of how he will forgive the one who is promised the eternal throne (Solomon) lenience when he sins for the sake of preserving the covenant God created with David.

What is "later"? The rest of II Sam.7 refers to David's "seed" and David's kingdom. No specific heir is named. Are you referencing somewhere else?

OK so I read through Kings about Solomon, and yes the Lord did promise to establish the throne of Solomon forever.

Reference?

 

[SoldierKG]

It doesn't actually say that. The "he" of verse 13 refers to David's "seed", and doesn't have to be one specific person. David's seed did build the temple, and David's seed was established forever.


What is "later"? The rest of II Sam.7 refers to David's "seed" and David's kingdom. No specific heir is named. Are you referencing somewhere else?


Reference?

It says the one who builds a house for the name of the Lord. This was done by Samuel and Samuel alone. When Solomon builds the temple in 2 Kings, God makes the same promise of the eternal throne through Solomon's lineage as David.

 

[ContentInHim]

I'm with XianJedi - God promised two different things - one to build the temple and one to establish the throne. It could have been one person but ended up being two because of the curse.

Guess what I read this a.m.?

PS 132:11 The LORD swore an oath to David,
a sure oath that he will not revoke:
"One of your own descendants
I will place on your throne--
PS 132:12 if your sons keep my covenant
and the statutes I teach them,
then their sons will sit
on your throne for ever and ever."

This time the promise was about the throne only. Solomon broke the covenant in a particularly nasty way by idolatry. Nathan presumably did not. I find it interesting that regardless, Jesus was a physical descendant of both men.

 

[PowderedGold]

Titus 3:9

"Avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and quarrels and arguments about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." [emphasis added, obviously]

I think what Paul wrote here applies to you, SoldierKG. Genealogies are as confusing as mazes, so don't become too focused on them and ignore what is important.

 

[SoldierKG]

I'm with XianJedi - God promised two different things - one to build the temple and one to establish the throne. It could have been one person but ended up being two because of the curse.

Guess what I read this a.m.?



This time the promise was about the throne only. Solomon broke the covenant in a particularly nasty way by idolatry. Nathan presumably did not. I find it interesting that regardless, Jesus was a physical descendant of both men.

Even if Solomon's line did not continue the royal throne (which btw, they did hold until the exile) Nathan isn't at all mentioned except for in 1 Chronicles where he is said to be David's son.

Titus 3:9

"Avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and quarrels and arguments about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless." [emphasis added, obviously]

I think what Paul wrote here applies to you, SoldierKG. Genealogies are as confusing as mazes, so don't become too focused on them and ignore what is important.

Or suppose that Paul wrote it because he knew that we'd uncover that Jesus wasn't the Messiah, and we couldn't have that now would we? I am focusing on what's important. I am a seeker and am eternally loyal to Truth. If Jesus was the Messiah in Truth than by Truth of the scriptures it will be supported as such. However, if it is left to speculation and to assumptions by which Jesus is made Messiah well, let's just say that due to God's meticulous track record in the OT of his success and clarity with his workings, I doubt he'd be sloppy with the most important event of all time.

 

[PowderedGold]

Yes, that must be it. You've uncovered something that two thousand years of Biblical study haven't managed to uncover, even though it's printed right there for all to read.

 

[HypnoToad]

It says the one who builds a house for the name of the Lord. This was done by Samuel and Samuel alone. When Solomon builds the temple in 2 Kings, God makes the same promise of the eternal throne through Solomon's lineage as David.

You replied to me but again didn't supply what I asked for - REFERENCES.

It is difficult to address this if you don't provide the exact book, chapter, and verses that you draw your conclusions from.

 

[SoldierKG]

What is "later"? The rest of II Sam.7 refers to David's "seed" and David's kingdom. No specific heir is named. Are you referencing somewhere else?


Reference?

1 Chronicles 22:9-10

But you will have a son who will be a man of peace and rest, and I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side. His name will be Solomon, and I will grant Israel peace and quiet during his reign. He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'


1 Chronicles 28:4-6

"Yet the LORD, the God of Israel, chose me from my whole family to be king over Israel forever. He chose Judah as leader, and from the house of Judah he chose my family, and from my father's sons he was pleased to make me king over all Israel. Of all my sons—and the LORD has given me many—he has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. He said to me: 'Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

 

[ContentInHim]

Those two quotes merely show David's understanding of Solomon's role. God's promise to David was that the kingdom would be established through his son - didn't say which one, though, and Nathan was the younger brother to Solomon, still through Bathsheba!

 

[SoldierKG]

Those two quotes merely show David's understanding of Solomon's role. God's promise to David was that the kingdom would be established through his son - didn't say which one, though, and Nathan was the younger brother to Solomon, still through Bathsheba!

O c'mon, this is clearly showing that the line will continue through Solomon. If Nathan resumes the line of David than why is Nathan mentioned NOWHERE in the OT as a King or having any importance at all with the sole exception of him being mentioned in 1 Chronicles as David Son. Now you are denying what is in front of you for the sake of your own spiritual comfort? Alas! Such bravery.

 

[HypnoToad]

1 Chronicles 22:9-10

But you will have a son who will be a man of peace and rest, and I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side. His name will be Solomon, and I will grant Israel peace and quiet during his reign. He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'


1 Chronicles 28:4-6

"Yet the LORD, the God of Israel, chose me from my whole family to be king over Israel forever. He chose Judah as leader, and from the house of Judah he chose my family, and from my father's sons he was pleased to make me king over all Israel. Of all my sons—and the LORD has given me many—he has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel. He said to me: 'Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

But you leave out one HUGELY important part of the promise - I Chronicles 28:7:

"Moreover, I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgements as at this day."

Solomon's blessing is contingent on obedience to God. One of his descendants broke from that, bringing the curse on Solomon's line.

 

[SoldierKG]

But you leave out one HUGELY important part of the promise - I Chronicles 28:7:

"Moreover, I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgements as at this day."

Solomon's blessing is contingent on obedience to God. One of his descendants broke from that, bringing the curse on Solomon's line.

Except Solomon didn't break the covenant, his descendant Jehoiakim did. In Jeremiah 36 Jehoiakim (Father of Jehoiachin) burned the scroll of Jeremiah which wrought the curse against Jehoiakim. However, in Jewish tradition is the Son of the King cannot take reign (Jehoiakim had no son at that time) then the brother of the King takes the throne, which (if you read further into Jeremiah) Zedekiah (Son of Josiah) did, and then Solomon's line continued to reign over Israel.

 

[ContentInHim]

O c'mon, this is clearly showing that the line will continue through Solomon. If Nathan resumes the line of David than why is Nathan mentioned NOWHERE in the OT as a King or having any importance at all with the sole exception of him being mentioned in 1 Chronicles as David Son. Now you are denying what is in front of you for the sake of your own spiritual comfort? Alas! Such bravery.

Quit acting like a spoiled child and read what I'm writing. All Chronicles says is that David believed that Solomon would be the one through whom the Messiah would be born (and he was - as was Nathan). David was blessed but he wasn't infallible. If you really want to nitpick - Jesus is the one forever on the throne, not a human king!

 

[ContentInHim]

Except Solomon didn't break the covenant, his descendant Jehoiakim did. In Jeremiah 36 Jehoiakim (Father of Jehoiachin) burned the scroll of Jeremiah which wrought the curse against Jehoiakim. However, in Jewish tradition is the Son of the King cannot take reign (Jehoiakim had no son at that time) then the brother of the King takes the throne, which (if you read further into Jeremiah) Zedekiah (Son of Josiah) did, and then Solomon's line continued to reign over Israel.

Actually, Solomon did break the covenant - he just wasn't cursed for it.

 

[SoldierKG]

Quit acting like a spoiled child and read what I'm writing. All Chronicles says is that David believed that Solomon would be the one through whom the Messiah would be born (and he was - as was Nathan). David was blessed but he wasn't infallible. If you really want to nitpick - Jesus is the one forever on the throne, not a human king!

I've read what you said, it's clear denial of what's there. David didn't "believe" that Solomon was the one who's line would always be, he knew it because God told him. And I didn't say Solomon wasn't the Messiah, but it certainly had to come from his line.

Actually, Solomon did break the covenant - he just wasn't cursed for it.

Even so, the covenant was still in place. Where did he break the covenant?

 

[ContentInHim]

The covenant was in place because God kept it there. Solomon broke it by worshipping the heathen gods of his many wives and setting up altars for them in the high places and falling totally into idolatry which was an abomination to God and, I believe, fell out of communion with God. Read Ecclesiastes for Solomon's regret for the way he lived his life.

Back to David - read what God told David and then read what David said God told him. God said messiah and the eternal throne is to come from David's line. David assumes it's Solomon who is blessed in so many ways! David's the one who says it's Solomon, not God.

 

[SoldierKG]

The covenant was in place because God kept it there. Solomon broke it by worshipping the heathen gods of his many wives and setting up altars for them in the high places and falling totally into idolatry which was an abomination to God and, I believe, fell out of communion with God. Read Ecclesiastes for Solomon's regret for the way he lived his life.

Back to David - read what God told David and then read what David said God told him. God said messiah and the eternal throne is to come from David's line. David assumes it's Solomon who is blessed in so many ways! David's the one who says it's Solomon, not God.

What about the prophesies that Jesus did not fulfill? Such as Ezekiel 37:26-28, Isaiah 43:5-6, Isaiah 2:4, Zechariah 14:9, Jeremiah 31:33-34, Isaiah 11: 9, Deut 13, and Isaiah 11:6-8 just to name a few.