How Mary REMARKABLY Converted the Queen's Chaplain w/ Dr. Gavin Ashenden

[WarriorAngel]

More or less. But it's complicated by two things that make it a little bit up in the air. First is that some Lutherans and some Anglicans have worked hard to restore apostolic succession after having deliberately 86ing it in the past. And again some Lutherans do stress the Real Presence. Soooo, the old simple answer of their ordinations not being valid may not be totally true for all Lutherans today. I could just barely see it that some kind of Lutherans do have a valid Eucharist. Not all. Some. So I could almost see it that they could have a few Eucharistic miracles.

There was a lot of footwork done years ago on this by the Lutheran-Catholic dialogues. It was premature then and may be premature now but it does need to be looked at again. Maybe by a new and more careful orthodox pope and some conservative but not closed off Lutherans could find themselves in communion again. Kind of like the Anglican Ordinariate, but they did go with a hard re-ordination when coming into the Catholic Church.

In 2010, the Catholic–Lutheran dialogue completed a common statement entitled The Hope of Eternal Life. In 2015, Lutherans and Roman Catholics jointly issued the Declaration on the Way: Church, Ministry and Eucharist, an ecumenical document marking greater visible unity between Catholics and Lutherans.

Catholic–Lutheran dialogue - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FaithT]

More or less. But it's complicated by two things that make it a little bit up in the air. First is that some Lutherans and some Anglicans have worked hard to restore apostolic succession after having deliberately 86ing it in the past. And again some Lutherans do stress the Real Presence. Soooo, the old simple answer of their ordinations not being valid may not be totally true for all Lutherans today. I could just barely see it that some kind of Lutherans do have a valid Eucharist. Not all. Some. So I could almost see it that they could have a few Eucharistic miracles.

There was a lot of footwork done years ago on this by the Lutheran-Catholic dialogues. It was premature then and may be premature now but it does need to be looked at again. Maybe by a new and more careful orthodox pope and some conservative but not closed off Lutherans could find themselves in communion again. Kind of like the Anglican Ordinariate, but they did go with a hard re-ordination when coming into the Catholic Church.

Whenever I took communion in the Lutheran church I felt like I wasn’t really receiving Christ, even though they claim otherwise; they say that Jesus is present in, with and under the bread and wine.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Whenever I took communion in the Lutheran church I felt like I wasn’t really receiving Christ, even though they claim otherwise; they say that Jesus is present in, with and under the bread and wine.

I appreciate that. Some Lutherans are intent on NOT having their communion be the Eucharist. Others ARE intent on their communion being the Eucharist (some who already call themselves Lutheran Catholics). Some Lutherans have gone to great lengths to define their ordinations as nothing apostolic (WELS among others). Others have gone to great lengths to reconnect to apostolic succession (. I am proposing that at the intersection of those who have both done the work to restore apostolic succession AND believe in the Real Presence that there may be, I'm NOT emphatically suggesting there IS, but MAY be, a valid Eucharist. We should be open to that as a possibility, for some Lutherans. For all the rest, well, your feeling was probably right on.

 

[chevyontheriver]

In 2010, the Catholic–Lutheran dialogue completed a common statement entitled The Hope of Eternal Life. In 2015, Lutherans and Roman Catholics jointly issued the Declaration on the Way: Church, Ministry and Eucharist, an ecumenical document marking greater visible unity between Catholics and Lutherans.

Catholic–Lutheran dialogue - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A lot of that was incredibly premature. But at least they were thinking of possibilities. And Lutherans, some kinds, have done their episcopal ordinations with irregular but validly ordained bishops from the Old Catholics or other validly ordained bishops to re-attain apostolic succession. How I see this working out is that IF some Lutherans want to start an Ordinariate they would have a Catholic bishop as part of the ordination team for any bishops, they would maybe have to tweak the process of priestly ordination, and then we could all agree that their Eucharist is valid. Not all the other Lutheran communions yet, but the Ordinariate sort where they now believe they have the Real Presence and they have worked to have an apostolic succession. Basically I'm calling for an Ordinariate for Lutherans to make it official.

 

[RileyG]

More or less. But it's complicated by two things that make it a little bit up in the air. First is that some Lutherans and some Anglicans have worked hard to restore apostolic succession after having deliberately 86ing it in the past. And again some Lutherans do stress the Real Presence. Soooo, the old simple answer of their ordinations not being valid may not be totally true for all Lutherans today. I could just barely see it that some kind of Lutherans do have a valid Eucharist. Not all. Some. So I could almost see it that they could have a few Eucharistic miracles.

There was a lot of footwork done years ago on this by the Lutheran-Catholic dialogues. It was premature then and may be premature now but it does need to be looked at again. Maybe by a new and more careful orthodox pope and some conservative but not closed off Lutherans could find themselves in communion again. Kind of like the Anglican Ordinariate, but they did go with a hard re-ordination when coming into the Catholic Church.

There was the Anglo-Catholic Lutheran Church (Augustana Church) that has since been disbanded that was trying to come in full communion with Rome, while accepting all RCC doctrines. One of their ministers left and became LDS.

 

[WarriorAngel]

A lot of that was incredibly premature. But at least they were thinking of possibilities. And Lutherans, some kinds, have done their episcopal ordinations with irregular but validly ordained bishops from the Old Catholics or other validly ordained bishops to re-attain apostolic succession. How I see this working out is that IF some Lutherans want to start an Ordinariate they would have a Catholic bishop as part of the ordination team for any bishops, they would maybe have to tweak the process of priestly ordination, and then we could all agree that their Eucharist is valid. Not all the other Lutheran communions yet, but the Ordinariate sort where they now believe they have the Real Presence and they have worked to have an apostolic succession. Basically I'm calling for an Ordinariate for Lutherans to make it official.

I think, if a Bishop is ordained by the Catholic Church, leaving the church to unorthodoxy makes them illicit and any ordination from them.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I think, if a Bishop is ordained by the Catholic Church, leaving the church to unorthodoxy makes them illicit and any ordination from them.

I agree. But there is a difference between 'illicit' and 'invalid'. I dislike both but an illicit ordination can often be valid.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I agree. But there is a difference between 'illicit' and 'invalid'. I dislike both but an illicit ordination can often be valid.

In the Catholic Church, what makes something illicit vs. invalid?

From this question, Why can't the laity preach a homily, and can a lay person ever preach?, in the Catholic Church, what determines the licitness vs. the validity of something. Please give examples.

christianity.stackexchange.com

It's like trying to remember what is a second cousin and what is a second cousin once removed. LOL
It's kinda difficult, eh?

 

[FaithT]

In the Catholic Church, what makes something illicit vs. invalid?

From this question, Why can't the laity preach a homily, and can a lay person ever preach?, in the Catholic Church, what determines the licitness vs. the validity of something. Please give examples.

christianity.stackexchange.com

It's like trying to remember what is a second cousin and what is a second cousin once removed. LOL
It's kinda difficult, eh?

I don’t know the difference about cousins. I just say first, second, third etc. cousins.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I don’t know the difference about cousins. I just say first, second, third etc. cousins.

Exactly.

But once removed is...
For example, 'first cousins once removed' declares that either one of you is one generation away from being first cousins. If your first cousin has children, they are your first cousins once removed.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Exactly.

But once removed is...
For example, 'first cousins once removed' declares that either one of you is one generation away from being first cousins. If your first cousin has children, they are your first cousins once removed.

And this is where the invalid vs illicit comes in and I just don't even... lol