How Can Molecules Think?

[Hans Blaster]

? Radios are made up of molecules, as is all physical matter. My question is how do molecules make up the non-tangible.

The key difference between a radio and other devices that can produce the same sounds (mp3 players, laptop taking in a radio stream, the CD player in my car) is the antenna. The antenna is for detecting radio waves and is made of molecules.

The radio waves are not made of molecules. Are they "non-tangible" and "not physical"?

 

[doubtingmerle]

This is about the quote:

"If God did not intend I should think, why did he give me a thinker? -- Robert G. Ingersoll".

While I don't know who Ingersoll is, and I'm not sure I've heard this exact quote before, the general idea behind it is one I heard as a Christian about being a Christian. To a well-known apologist has stated you shouldn't have a "brain-dead faith", or thinking is not antithetical to Christianity or being a Christian.

It is a useful quote (or idea) to challenge anti-intellectualism and anti-knowledge trends in Christianity for Christians and non-Christians alike.

When I was looking for a tagline, I was big into the Socratic Method (and still am). So I wanted a tagline that asked a question that could quickly get everyone to agree with a basic starting point. About that time I was reading some writings of Ingersoll and came across this. In reference to hell he wrote:

Surely an infinite God ought to be as just as man. Surely no God can have the right to punish his children for being honest. He should not reward hypocrisy with heaven, and punish candor with eternal pain.

The next question then is: Can I commit a sin against God by thinking? If God did not intend I should think, why did he give me a thinker? For one, I am convinced, not only that I have the right to think, but that it is my duty to express my honest thoughts. Whatever the gods may say we must be true to ourselves.

-- What Must We Do To Be Saved? (1880)​

I was using the thinker as my icon at the time, and immediately that question jumped out at me as the tagline I needed to go along with my icon. That was almost 20 years ago, and I have never changed it.

For years I was the only one I knew who ever used that quote. Just today I found a second person who used that quote: Увійти у Facebook.

 

[doubtingmerle]

There are certainly thousands of years of well-thought out atheistic argumentation that didn't need to rely on straw-men arguments. Be one of those guys at least

My tagline was a simple attempt to get everybody to agree with a starting point. Since we all have minds, surely there can be nothing wrong with thinking and asking questions.

And yes, I have asked many other questions and dealt with many logical arguments in my thousands of posts here and at my website -- The Mind Set Free-- There is no stopping the mind set free. .

 

[doubtingmerle]

heh heh, not so fast.

A 'soul' isn't something we can explain/characterize hardly at all. It's like....dark matter -- not yet characterized, not yet observed.

... and not yet needed.

For the evidence indicates that it is the brain that thinks.

For instance, if you go under anesthesia, all consciousness ceases. If you had a soul that was distinct from your brain, why wouldn't you go on being conscious while your brain was sleeping?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Maybe a better question is "How can molecules be self-aware"? What is it about molecules that separates them from computer programs?

That is a good question. I address that question at the end of How Can Molecules Think? - The Mind Set Free .

 

[Halbhh]

So binary.

There's at least one more possibility.

That one could just ask about 30-100 randomly selected people what a 'soul' is to them, might be interesting.

 

[Halbhh]

... and not yet needed.

lol, I don't think I'd like to not be who I am.

For the evidence indicates that it is the brain that thinks.

Well, if you try to look closer it gets interesting.

I think the wiki intro has a useful wording to point out what one finds:

Consciousness, at its simplest, is sentience or awareness of internal and external existence.[1] Despite millennia of analyses, definitions, explanations and debates by philosophers and scientists, consciousness remains puzzling and controversial,[2] being "at once the most familiar and [also the] most mysterious aspect of our lives".[3] Perhaps the only widely agreed notion about the topic is the intuition that consciousness exists.
...
Consciousness - Wikipedia

So, as there are so very many theories (I've read at least 5 major theories over the years presented in lengthy articles), it seems to me it might be (speculative view) that consciousness/thought is a kind of hodge-podge mix of many different processes competing with each other. Just an idea. (don't get upset if it seems disturbing, it's only a hypothetical idea)

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

For instance, if you go under anesthesia, all consciousness ceases. If you had a soul that was distinct from your brain, why wouldn't you go on being conscious while your brain was sleeping?

We have dreams that we do not remember all the time. Our standard physical consciousness is fragile and limited. Only a small aspect of our being.

 

[doubtingmerle]

it seems to me it might be (speculative view) that consciousness/thought is a kind of hodge-podge mix of many different processes competing with each other.

I agree.

But that in no way changes the fact that, when one goes under anesthesia, consciousness ceases while the brain is under anesthesia.

And that is strong indication that consciousness is a function of the brain, yes?

 

[doubtingmerle]

We have dreams that we do not remember all the time. Our standard physical consciousness is fragile and limited. Only a small aspect of our being.

Does this in any way attempt to answer why it is that consciousness ceases while one is under anesthesia?

 

[Estrid]

That one could just ask about 30-100 randomly selected people what a 'soul' is to them, might be interesting.

And of course the distinct possibility that the " soul" is imaginary

 

[Halbhh]

I agree.

But that in no way changes the fact that, when one goes under anesthesia, consciousness ceases while the brain is under anesthesia.

And that is strong indication that consciousness is a function of the brain, yes?

We'd surely agree consciousness happens from and in and of the brain. That's just a given basic thing here. Of course it's a very interesting question how consciousness arises from the brain -- how precisely. But even that might be relatively simple compared to trying to figure out what 'thought' is, in my estimation. There are very many interesting questions that come to mind about 'thought'. Just one example: how is it that one can choose what to think about (one might become involved in thinking on something, and then it has it's own momentum; but before then, when the choice is being made to think on a particular thing, what makes one choose to think on topic A instead of just doing some other activity one also considers briefly and likes and might choose, as one often does, like reading an interesting book one has, or thinking on topic B instead, going for a swim, etc.) I think this question of how we choose what to do is complex/interesting. It's not just a few obvious forces like willpower or blood sugar level, etc, but also involves more subtle things.

 

[Yttrium]

In the last thread I was on, we had a huge discussion about whether it was possible for 2+ 2 to equal 10 or for 2 + 2 to equal 53,567. I contended that 2 + 2 has to equal 4 in all possible worlds. It simply could not be otherwise.

2+2 = 10 in base 4. In base 4, you only use the digits 0, 1, 2, and 3.

 

[doubtingmerle]

We'd surely agree consciousness happens from and in and of the brain. That's just a given basic thing here. Of course it's a very interesting question how consciousness arises from the brain -- how precisely. But even that might be relatively simple compared to trying to figure out what 'thought' is, in my estimation. There are very many interesting questions that come to mind about 'thought'. Just one example: how is it that one can choose what to think about (one might become involved in thinking on something, and then it has it's own momentum; but before then, when the choice is being made to think on a particular thing, what makes one choose to think on topic A instead of just doing some other activity one also considers briefly and likes and might choose, as one often does, like reading an interesting book one has, or thinking on topic B instead, going for a swim, etc.) I think this question of how we choose what to do is complex/interesting. It's not just a few obvious forces like willpower or blood sugar level, etc, but also involves more subtle things.

My understanding is that multiple sets of neurons are building up coalitions of neurons to address differences in the desired state and the actual state of a person. The winning set of neurons drives its idea to a state of attention and controls the body for a split second before the next set takes over. The winning neurons write the history, which is basically what we call consciousness. I discuss this in detail at How Can Molecules Think? - The Mind Set Free .

 

[doubtingmerle]

2+2 = 10 in base 4. In base 4, you only use the digits 0, 1, 2, and 3.

Understood.

But believe it or not, we were actually arguing if 2+2 in other universes could equal the same quantity that we in America refer to as ten.

 

[doubtingmerle]

how is it that one can choose what to think about (one might become involved in thinking on something, and then it has it's own momentum; but before then, when the choice is being made to think on a particular thing, what makes one choose to think on topic A instead of just doing some other activity one also considers briefly...)

At my website I use the diagram below to illustrate how this could happen.

This illustrates what we all observe. We have a stream of thoughts that somehow come to our attention, and we really don't know where they come from or which thought will be next. They just present themselves to our attention. And I think we all observe that this is happening, regardless of whether the ultimate cause is neurons acting in parallel, or from within a soul. Either way, the root cause of our next thought somehow causes our next thought, and our consciousness really does not have control of what that will be.

 

[AV1611VET]

At my website I use the diagram below to illustrate how this could happen.

Did molecules think all this up?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Does this in any way attempt to answer why it is that consciousness ceases while one is under anesthesia?

Consciousness has many states. Consciousness of the physical world may cease but the being may be conscious of other dimensions and not remember them upon waking back in physical realm.

Think of our consciousness as a ladder of Involution and Evolution, the route through which the formless Spirit became Matter and also the path that the soul rises or deepens in spirit.

 

[Estrid]

Consciousness has many states. Consciousness of the physical world may cease but the being may be conscious of other dimensions and not remember them upon waking back in physical realm.

Think of our consciousness as a ladder of Involution and Evolution, the route through which the formless Spirit became Matter and also the path that the soul rises or deepens in spirit.

Why would a person chooses to think that?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would a person chooses to think that?

Molecular inspiration.