Holy Spirit or Clairvoyance?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Seeing that the way in which clairvoyants operate is that they make their minds passive, gaze into crystal balls, or get impressions or hear voices while their minds are blank, and that they depend on sensory experiences for their information, is it understandable that when people see Pentecostals make their minds go passive and wait until some type of force takes them over and produces jerking, shaking, rolling, dog barking and other incoherent behaviour, they would draw a direct comparison and accuse them of practising psychic phenomena?

The main characteristcs of psychics and clairvoyants is that they put their faith in sensory experiences that convince them that they are in touch with the spirits. So, if certain Pentecostals act the same way and demonstrate that they are putting their faith in sensory experiences, then maybe they are getting their experiences from the same spirits.

I have just finished reading the book "Growing in the Prophetic" by Mike Bickell. Although Mike is fairly sound himself, he names two "prophets" which he spoke very highly of. They gave prophecies about a drought (which was disproved by the weather bureau stats for that area and time), earthquake (which came to pass), and other prophecies which were quite dramatic but seemed to have little relevance to the Gospel. Also these prophets said that William Branham was the "greatest prophet of the 20th Century", which is a concern because it transpired that he denied the Trinity and came up with all sorts of crazy doctrines. Also, there were doubts about Branham's angelic visitor who gave him guidance about his ministry, and many have doubted that the angel came from God, seeing that the fruit of his ministry was serious damage to the Pentecostal church at that time and caused a major division. Bickell took his guidance from John Wimber who is said to believe in "experience theology" which is another way of believing that sensory experiences are the evidence that the Holy Spirit is moving. The two prophets, Paul Cain and Bob Jones have both been discredited through immorality, and many believe that their prophecies are more clairvoyance than the true Holy Spirit prophetic.

The alternative is Truth theology, which has as its guiding principle, if it isn't clearly taught in the Word of God it is not true. The Word teaches that true prophetic ministry glorifies Christ and brings edification, exhortation and comfort to Christian believers. The prophecies that Cain and Jones brought served more to glorify themselves more than Christ. Therefore there is a reasonable doubt that the prophecies were from the Holy Spirit, and that those who believed them would have been seriously misled and actually deceived.

We activate the power of the Holy Spirit through faith in the written Word of God. I have already made myself clear about that in other threads where I have explained how the Holy Spirit works through faith.

I know that there is going to be some interesting comment about this, because quite a few are going to be offended and probably brand me a heretic and a "Pentecostal basher", but if I can get a few people in bondage to sensory experiences to think about what evangelical faith really is, then all this is fully justified.

 

[RisingSpirit]

Some clairvoyants are 100% accurate and Christians still bash them due to indifference.

 

[Faulty]

Some clairvoyants are 100% accurate and Christians still bash them due to indifference.

Some are 100% accurate? Who?

 

[New_Wineskin]

We activate the power of the Holy Spirit through faith in the written Word of God.

Really ? So , how was the power of the Holy Spirit "activated" when there were no writings in existance ? How did such activation cease to become viable ?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Some clairvoyants are 100% accurate and Christians still bash them due to indifference.

The devil is in command of billions of lying spirits whose role is to deceive Christians. They are quite capable of giving accurate prophecies both from clairvoyants and from so called Christian "prophets". Accuracy of prophecy is no indication that the prophecy is of the Holy Spirit. Compliance with the teaching of Scripture, glorifying Christ as King of kings and Lord of Lords,and the character of the fruit of the Spirit are more reliable indications of Spirit led prophecy.

 

[Bladers]

Please explain what you mean by sensory experiences and how people put faith in it!

 

[RisingSpirit]

Some are 100% accurate? Who?

The non-public ones and those that don't boost of their accuracy.
If you hear them on TV and easy access, they're probably not the real ones.

How about a group of people that walked on water? Are they really going to show you they can?

Some look for signs for belief.

 

[Biker Angel]

How about a group of people that walked on water? Are they really going to show you they can?

If nobody saw it, then how do we know they really did it?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Really ? So , how was the power of the Holy Spirit "activated" when there were no writings in existance ? How did such activation cease to become viable ?

What do you mean, no writings in existence? The early church had full access to the Old Testament Scriptures. The letters of Peter and Paul were in existence during that period as well, even though they weren't included in the Biblical canon until much later.

For example, Peter quoted the book of Joel when he validated the events of the Day of Pentecost. Paul often quoted Old Testament Scriptures in his letters to prove a point.

 

[Tobias]

Seeing that the way in which clairvoyants operate is that they make their minds passive, gaze into crystal balls, or get impressions or hear voices while their minds are blank, and that they depend on sensory experiences for their information, is it understandable that when people see Pentecostals make their minds go passive and wait until some type of force takes them over and produces jerking, shaking, rolling, dog barking and other incoherent behaviour, they would draw a direct comparison and accuse them of practising psychic phenomena?

The main characteristcs of psychics and clairvoyants is that they put their faith in sensory experiences that convince them that they are in touch with the spirits. So, if certain Pentecostals act the same way and demonstrate that they are putting their faith in sensory experiences, then maybe they are getting their experiences from the same spirits.

I took a close look through the Bible to try to see which methods qualified as divination, and what was safe to use to "inquire of the Lord." And you know what? It doesn't really say. There is no rhyme or reason why Gideon's test with sheep skin was ok and not condemned as divination, nor why Joseph claimed he was a diviner. The priests used an ephod to know the will of God, and several of David's major decisions were based upon information received from God in this way.

The act of "casting lots" is another mystery. The sailors on Jonah's boat used this method to find out he was the cause of the storm. The soldiers cast lots to split up Jesus' cloths, and the Apostles used the same method to determine who would replace Judas as one of them.

So I have determined that the main difference between the different "methods" is: To whom are you addressing the question?!

Normally we attribute certain methods to certain gods. You wouldn't seek and answer from God by using a Ouija board. Nor do we expect an answer from Apollo from opening our Bible and reading the first verse we see. Most people when dabbling with tarot cards and such are simply calling out to "Whomever will answer." But those who are experienced KNOW who they are talking to, and are quite accustomed to the spirit and have a working relationship with them.

As a Christian, I see no difference. With the same action on my part, I could seek an answer from the God of Israel; or from Apollon, Hekate, or Lucifer himself. It all has to do with the intent of my heart. Who I choose to call upon when I need an answer! The method I choose to use is relevant only in how much it affects me. Obviously some methods are used primarily to contact a certain god or type of spirit, but for all the non-specific methods of divination it is the intent of the person doing the asking that maters the most, IMO. Gideon could have used his sheep skin method to ask Baal, but he didn't. He asked God, and God answered.

As we develop a close relationship with God, it is that familiarity that gives us the confidence to trust whatever it is that He tells us. That is how it worked for Abraham the Father of our Faith, when it came to offering up his son. The popular belief that the Bible will give us all the answers and lead us into all the Truth is rather unsupported. This is the Holy Spirit's job... who incidentally will use the Bible most of the time to do so!

 

[Simon Peter]

I have just finished reading the book "Growing in the Prophetic" by Mike Bickell. Although Mike is fairly sound himself, he names two "prophets" which he spoke very highly of.
...
The two prophets, Paul Cain and Bob Jones have both been discredited through immorality, and many believe that their prophecies are more clairvoyance than the true Holy Spirit prophetic.

We activate the power of the Holy Spirit through faith in the written Word of God. I have already made myself clear about that in other threads where I have explained how the Holy Spirit works through faith.

I agree with what I think you're saying.

There is a lot of false prophecy, manifestations and experiences going on in the 21st Century church. And this problem is in tandem with the strong delusion that Christians are not allowed to judge or critcise others in the church (exception: you are allowed to criticise those who criticise, or judge those who judge)

Which basically means Satan gets a lot of freedom within the church and no one is allowed to question, judge or criticise those who do his bidding.

I disagree that Mike Bickell is "basically sound". Bickell has been very clever in managing his public profile. IOW, what you see is not what you get.

I recommend this document, that gives a fuller picture of Bickell, and also exposes Bob Jones and Paul Cain:

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf


Here's two excerpts:

7. SUMMARY AND OBSERVATIONS
a. Bob Jones and his supernatural visions and experiences are foundational to Kansas City
Fellowship and their “Movement.”
b. Bob’s background includes alcoholism, abandonment to sin, demon possession, drug
addiction, and time in a mental institution; from this background he does a sudden 180 degree
turn to become a major “prophet of God for the last days.”
c. This man who saw demons regularly and “partied with them” prior to salvation now
begins seeing angels and having out-of-body experiences, etc. He starts getting “five to ten
dreams and visions a night” from 1974 to the present, supposedly from God.
d. His “prophetic ministry” is rejected by church after church, until he meets Mike Bickle.
Mike embraces Bob’s visions and utilizes them to the fullest in the advancement of “The
Movement.”
e. We are dealing here with a man who claims to have had more revelations, visions, and
supernatural experiences with Jesus and angels than that of all the men of God in the Bible put
together.
f. Either Bob Jones has a walk with God that would make that of the Apostle Paul shrink to
almost nothing in comparison, or there is something seriously wrong here.
g. The sad irony is that so many of those same mystical experiences and revelations have no
support whatsoever from Scripture, and many defy the scriptural record entirely.
Examples of Bob’s beliefs and experiences are included in the following sections.

---

3. SUMMARY AND OBSERVATIONS
a. Both Mike Bickle and Bob Jones publicly acknowledge a “great deal of error” in Bob’s
prophetic ministry.
b. When approached by Christian leaders who are troubled by his strange revelations, Mike
has consistently down-played the significance of Bob Jones and been deceptive in his
presentation of Bob Jones to others privately.
c. It seems apparent when listening to their dialogue that Mike does not really trust Bob
Jones to speak on his own. This is a sad state of affairs with someone who is supposedly one of
God’s most anointed end-time prophets! Can you imagine Daniel or Jeremiah being interviewed
like this?
d. It is clear that Bob Jones has an enormous influence in the theology, history, vision for
the “Movement,” and current ministries of Kansas City Fellowship. In fact, the ministry of Bob
Jones continues to be promoted by Grace Ministries (Kansas City Fellowship) across the nation.
See Section IV for more information on this point.



Simon

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree with what I think you're saying.

There is a lot of false prophecy, manifestations and experiences going on in the 21st Century church. And this problem is in tandem with the strong delusion that Christians are not allowed to judge or critcise others in the church (exception: you are allowed to criticise those who criticise, or judge those who judge)

Which basically means Satan gets a lot of freedom within the church and no one is allowed to question, judge or criticise those who do his bidding.

I disagree that Mike Bickell is "basically sound". Bickell has been very clever in managing his public profile. IOW, what you see is not what you get.

I recommend this document, that gives a fuller picture of Bickell, and also exposes Bob Jones and Paul Cain:

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf


Here's two excerpts:

7. SUMMARY AND OBSERVATIONS
a. Bob Jones and his supernatural visions and experiences are foundational to Kansas City
Fellowship and their “Movement.”
b. Bob’s background includes alcoholism, abandonment to sin, demon possession, drug
addiction, and time in a mental institution; from this background he does a sudden 180 degree
turn to become a major “prophet of God for the last days.”
c. This man who saw demons regularly and “partied with them” prior to salvation now
begins seeing angels and having out-of-body experiences, etc. He starts getting “five to ten
dreams and visions a night” from 1974 to the present, supposedly from God.
d. His “prophetic ministry” is rejected by church after church, until he meets Mike Bickle.
Mike embraces Bob’s visions and utilizes them to the fullest in the advancement of “The
Movement.”
e. We are dealing here with a man who claims to have had more revelations, visions, and
supernatural experiences with Jesus and angels than that of all the men of God in the Bible put
together.
f. Either Bob Jones has a walk with God that would make that of the Apostle Paul shrink to
almost nothing in comparison, or there is something seriously wrong here.
g. The sad irony is that so many of those same mystical experiences and revelations have no
support whatsoever from Scripture, and many defy the scriptural record entirely.
Examples of Bob’s beliefs and experiences are included in the following sections.

---

3. SUMMARY AND OBSERVATIONS
a. Both Mike Bickle and Bob Jones publicly acknowledge a “great deal of error” in Bob’s
prophetic ministry.
b. When approached by Christian leaders who are troubled by his strange revelations, Mike
has consistently down-played the significance of Bob Jones and been deceptive in his
presentation of Bob Jones to others privately.
c. It seems apparent when listening to their dialogue that Mike does not really trust Bob
Jones to speak on his own. This is a sad state of affairs with someone who is supposedly one of
God’s most anointed end-time prophets! Can you imagine Daniel or Jeremiah being interviewed
like this?
d. It is clear that Bob Jones has an enormous influence in the theology, history, vision for
the “Movement,” and current ministries of Kansas City Fellowship. In fact, the ministry of Bob
Jones continues to be promoted by Grace Ministries (Kansas City Fellowship) across the nation.
See Section IV for more information on this point.



Simon

I found that article on Google and read it. Very enlightening. I guess that I was being kind to Biskell who maintained that he is a pastor and not a prophet himself. But he was certainly mistaken about Cain and Jones.

It is a pity that men like these give the prophetic a bad name.

I have just put together sermon notes about using the gifts on the foundation of the fruit of the Spirit. When I look at them from that perspective, I can only agree that a lot of the criticising ways gifts are used in churches are not on the basis of the fruit (gentleness, kindness and self control), and therefore has to come from some other source than the Holy Spirit. The trouble is that many good believers are intimidated and are afraid to speak out against the abuse of the gifts because it might be the influential leaders of their church who are endorsing the misuse, and the "whistleblower" might end up in the "pokey", with his position or ministry in the church taken away from him.

I wonder how many good people are in this position today in many of our churches?

 

[Tobias]

Well, I'm not clairvoyant but I am clairaudient. Clairvoyance is the ability to see into the spirit realm, and kind of the general use word for all of the various senses into the spiritual. Clairaudience is the ability to hear. Clairsentience is the ability to feel, and claircognizence is the ability to simply know something is true. If you break down the psychic abilities, there's quite a bit that falls under the heading of "clairvoyance".

People who do not simply see and hear spirits, or haven't developed their abilities, generally use methods of divination to make the connection. They rely upon tarot cards, runes, or any number of other means to match the physical with the unseen.

It works very much the same within Christianity. Some hear from God more clearly than others. Many have tuned their ears in to hear His voice, and through experience have become familiar with His presence and are quite accurate in doing so.

Those with less experience rely upon the Bible as a tool to connect with Him. When listening for God's voice while reading the scriptures, it is very similar to listening for a spirit's voice while doing tarot cards. You have a physical means of connection before you, but in your spirit you are intending to hear what someone unseen has to say to you. The main difference being that reading the Bible will benefit and encourage you even if God doesn't show up and say anything specific. But it is a fact that by reading the word and listening for His voice, that over time you will learn to hear His voice more clearly.

As I mentioned, intention is the key factor in who's voice you hear. Ask the Father for your daily bread, and He will not give you a scorpion! It is only God's mercy and His Fatherly heart that keeps us from being led astray by other spirits. But if our heart wanders far from Him, deception from other spirits is inevitable. But even so, as the Good Shepherd He always comes back round again to rescue His sheep that have wandered off. (I speak from experience... )


Now, add to the mix the Gifts of the Spirit, and the callings to ministry. Obviously if I am trying to divine the will of God, or the Word of God through other means besides directly asking Him, I am subject to error. The will/Word of God is sort of known by angels and other spirits. I can use psychic abilities to ascertain what some of them think God would want done. As Christians we are tempted to do this often enough, when we seek for God's will from preachers and other believers instead of going to Him directly. We are ashamed, or otherwise unwilling to approach God directly. Or are still attempting to hide in the shadows because we are scared of the Light exposing our sin. The exact same feelings and hesitation we display in the physical realm, can trip you up when touching into the spiritual realm.

A person we recognize as a Prophet may choose to relay information to us that is not really obtained straight from God. Their prophetic calling can be activated from time to time, and God can speak true words through this person. But if the prophet is not careful, or the people draw on his abilities with itching ears, then he/she may fall into the trap of relaying all information seen and heard in the spiritual realm, without taking the time to filter out that which is definitely and specifically from God.

Many things a prophet may see and hear are of good Christian spiritual significance. But only those things which God chooses to share will activate the Prophetic anointing. This is what I sense in Bob Jones. He shares his visions and every other thought that pops into his head, without taking the responsibility to filter it for other people's use. I don't spend much time listening to him, because most of what he shares is not meant to be told aloud. For those with the gift of discernment, it does not carry God's stamp of approval.

What it comes down to, is that we are just a bunch of kids with toys. We can choose to activate our Gifts of the Spirit, or we can let them gather dust in the corner. We can choose to seek God, or we can try to gather information about Him without being willing to face Him directly. Rare is the times when a true Apostle or Prophet will use their gift and calling to connect directly with God, and speak what He has to say. Usually, they are more interested in showing us what they themselves can do as a person, or sharing the wisdom they think they have in their own head.

 

[Alive_Again]

...people see Pentecostals make their minds go passive and wait until some type of force takes them over and produces jerking, shaking, rolling, dog barking and other incoherent behaviour, they would draw a direct comparison and accuse them of practising psychic phenomena?

I have always thought this behavior was strange. I have been in some wonderful Holy Ghost meetings where one person "twitched" a lot while getting ministered to. Many of these people have the expectation of some physical manifestation when the Spirit moves. I believe it is largely a learned behavior. This may seem extraordinary, but it may well be angels prodding some of these people with this twitching. I beheld this one woman and their was no reason to suspect some demonic infiltration, yet she did her twitching thing. The Lord was still there and the peace was still great. The anointing was strong.

I personally consider it a weakness for some fellowships to nurture this type of manifestation. There's not a single bit of emotionalism or physical movements that produce the anointing. It even makes some Pentecostal groups seem a little "freaky". I've never been to one of their fellowships. It would not surprise me if the anointing was strong anyway, because they seek the Lord and the move of the Spirit. You always judge by the fruits, in spite of whatever "fringe" behavior may accompany this.

I've sat in on Catholic prayer meetings where the anointing was real strong. Some of those people had just come from a rosary recitation, and that my friends is not of God. Yet in their innocence, God looks upon the heart and will no doubt deal with them in His time regarding behaviors not of Him, or that seem questionable.

So, if certain Pentecostals act the same way and demonstrate that they are putting their faith in sensory experiences, then maybe they are getting their experiences from the same spirits.

It's certainly possible, but it's also possible that God allows these things. I usually try to see the church act the way the Lord would act, and tossing about on the floor is difficult to imagine. But, He looks upon the heart, so we can't disqualify them outright for acting "strange".

...Also these prophets said that William Branham was the "greatest prophet of the 20th Century"

He operated in a mighty prophetic anointing seldom seen even in this day. He was compromised and preached heresy and was taken home after he failed to repent. That's between him and God. He was still highly anointed. The fruits bear witness to the words of knowledge and healings manifested in his ministry.

The two prophets, Paul Cain and Bob Jones have both been discredited through immorality

All that means is that they came under fierce attack and succumbed to the enemy from a weak point in their armor. Somewhere their lives were out of order. Incredibly that could happen to anyone and be very careful about putting yourself in peril if you decide to boast otherwise. If you're a front runner in a big revival, you're a big target. That's why God wants us to judge ourselves here and get healed, delivered, and restored. He wants us to move in great power. If we're not restored, the enemy will move in mightily and take us out. If we don't judge ourselves, God will judge us because He wants to use us in the end time revival. We can remain on the fringe, but you'll have huge regrets and eventually those on the fringe will have to decide who's really Lord of their lives.

The alternative is Truth theology, which has as its guiding principle, if it isn't clearly taught in the Word of God it is not true.

As long as those who preach this are baptized in the Holy Spirit. If not, you have people who have yet to learn a more perfect way, that only comes in this baptism.

Also, many things happen that fall within the Word in a broad way, but aren't specifically mentioned in the Word. The early church was a baby church, in spite of dynamic leadership with the Apostles of the Lamb, and foundational Apostles who provided the Word of God. The church of today has a broader destiny (hard to say, but it's true) and a potential for greater maturity both in the Word and in the gifts with greater manifestations. I can't remember where it was mentioned that Paul was even a prophet. Prophets move strongly in the revelation gifts. Every word is to be judged as the Word states. No prophecy or gift gets a free pass. Everything is tested and we hold fast to the good.

The prophecies that Cain and Jones brought served more to glorify themselves more than Christ.

Which ones would that be? What glory is their in sticking your neck out and speaking what you believe the Holy Spirit said? Their have been wonderful manifestations besides whatever mistakes may have been made. Anytime their is a revival, the enemy will try to defeat it. They'll discredit anything real by marketing any opportunities to discredit. It by no means takes away from the blessings of God accomplished.

Therefore there is a reasonable doubt that the prophecies were from the Holy Spirit, and that those who believed them would have been seriously misled and actually deceived.

They should be judged individually and no stamp of disapproval goes on anyone's prophetic words. Not mine and not yours.

We activate the power of the Holy Spirit through faith in the written Word of God.

We do everything by faith. God can move on His own if He so chooses. We don't activate God, He moves through us. We can flow through Him and He has provided keys for our renewal.

...quite a few are going to be offended and probably brand me a heretic and a "Pentecostal basher", but if I can get a few people in bondage to sensory experiences to think about what evangelical faith really is, then all this is fully justified.

I think you can question certain behaviors and be honest about wanting truth in the Word about its validity. We can examine some prophecies, but we cannot cast a bad light on God's servants. If you choose to mention things like Branham's theology, do it without implying any intent to deceive. It's likely that he did not have any.

If you trash anyone, let alone any prophets, you pick up a blight, so be careful and do not leave anyone the impression that "so and so" is a false prophet just because he missed it or even got into sin.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not everyone who promotes himself as a prophet, or gives accurate prophecies is a prophet of God. When the apostle John instructs us to believe not every spirit, he means that we exercise discretion and judgment about what is true and what is false. The only standard for that is the written Word of God that is the Bible.

Just because the prophecies come true does not mean that they are of God. There are other criteria to judge prophecies by:

Do they comply with the Bible view of God's plans and purposes for post-Pentecost Christian believers?

Do the prophecies glorify Christ as Lord?

Do they build up other believers to have a stronger faith in Christ?

Do they show that Jesus is alive, and that the Gospel is really true?

Do they totally comply with the fruit of the Spirit?

Mike Bickell's approval of Cain and Jones seemed to have been based on the accuracies of the prophecies, although the one about the drought was disproved by the statistics from the weather bureau in that region which showed that rain did actually fall on the days which should have had the drought. This proved that the prophecy itself was false. And yet Bickell affirms that it was absolutely true. Was he honest? Or did he lack basic discernment?

Wouldn't the type of prophecies that these men gave steer people away from a simple direct faith in God's written Word, and on to sensory experiences? What was the fruit of these prophets? People started idolising them instead of keeping their faith in Christ.

A sound and true prophet whom I know and trust says that if someone gives him their card with "Prophet to the Nations" on it, he would put it through the shredder. This is because self promotion cuts right across the purpose of God to promote His Son Jesus as the one all eyes should see and all hearts should trust.

 

[Bladers]

Not everyone who promotes himself as a prophet, or gives accurate prophecies is a prophet of God. When the apostle John instructs us to believe not every spirit, he means that we exercise discretion and judgment about what is true and what is false. The only standard for that is the written Word of God that is the Bible.

No true at all. Its amazing how people can read a bible verse and proceed to add a bunch of flavor and spices to it. Which were not there to begin with.

The verse in John says:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)

That was the test John put out to discern whether the spirit someone is operating in is of God or not. Yet today people pick up what he wrote out of context and fabricate their own tests.

Listen to what John wrote, listen to his test!

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God!

Wouldn't the type of prophecies that these men gave steer people away from a simple direct faith in God's written Word, and on to sensory experiences? What was the fruit of these prophets? People started idolising them instead of keeping their faith in Christ.

Looks like you have a problem or personal vendetta against christian personalities rather than the operation of Spiritual Gifts in the church today.

In Christ's Love,
Chris.

 

[Tobias]

Not everyone who promotes himself as a prophet, or gives accurate prophecies is a prophet of God. When the apostle John instructs us to believe not every spirit, he means that we exercise discretion and judgment about what is true and what is false. The only standard for that is the written Word of God that is the Bible.

No, this isn't true either.

There have been many standards created by Man that can be used to judge prophecy. It was once believed by most all Christians that the keys to the Kingdom were given to Peter, and that the subsequent Popes were all inheritors of that same authority. Therefore the words of the Pope and the Catholic catechism held authority over the words spoken by a prophet.

Many Christians think their denomination's doctrines are of greater importance than prophecy. Most also think that their private interpretation of the Bible is greater too!

The Bible is an awesome tool, and is often the BEST thing we have to judge prophecy with. However, nowhere in scripture is it mentioned that we should judge the Prophets with "The Word". Nor does scripture state exactly what is scripture. Nor does it explain that scripture was not complete until the 66 books we now have were all compiled together, so that we can take "the whole counsel of scripture."

These are Man's doctrines. Perhaps they are good doctrines, but they are subject to the fallible nature of man.



...But if we wish to consider the counsel of scripture, then take a look at how this pertains to the judging of prophecy:

1 Cor 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

According to this scripture, prophecy is to be judged by prophets. IMO this goes back to what I've been saying about familiarity with God. Those who have the most experience with Him should help those with less. Those with the gift of prophecy will have to learn how to stay in touch with God, and can point out the error when someone else strays.

People have gone crazy trying to judge prophecy according to denominational theology and personal interpretation of the Bible. Some consider all prophets false, while others allow just about anything to pass. But according to the scriptures... or at least this scripture, it is the other prophets who are supposed to do the judging. This creates a big problem in the Church if there are no other prophets... which has been the case while the prophetic is being re-awaken in the Body.

Judging by the word is only second best. In the absence of recognized true Prophets, we must do what we must. But I have always found that either the Gift of Discernment, or perhaps the calling as a Prophet myself, have given me a very accurate knowledge of when a prophecy is accurate and to what degree it is accurate. Meanwhile other people take the authority in their own hands to judge the prophecy based upon their knowledge of the Bible, and ignore the Gift of the Spirit that has been handed out to another member of the congregation sitting right beside them.

...And this could be why the Prophetic Movement is the complete and total train wreak that we see today.

 

[JEBrady]

Either you have the Spirit or you do not. Anyone that does not have the Spirit can screw the scriptures into all manner of error, using the word of God to do it.

His sheep know His voice. It's then they understand the written word. The Spirit and the word agree. All it takes is a cursory look at the scriptures to see that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. That means one has to have the Spirit.

Each one of us has limited knowledge, from the brand new baby Christian to the oldest saint who walks with God. The genius of God's plan is that no matter where you are in the walk, if you walk with Him, He will keep you from falling because He gives us His Spirit. Because even if you don't have the revelation of the guiding principle when making any decision or judgment, the revelation of His Spirit will give you understanding.

No matter where we are in our walk, the thing is not what we know, but what we do. Those who walk with Him, walk in obedience to Him will prevail. Even when we don't understand, the obedient will be preserved because He honors them who honor Him.

The bible will give wisdom to those who by reason of use choose to walk in obedience, keeping a clear conscience...through the Spirit AND the word. Even a cretin with a clean heart can receive wisdom beyond the greatest theologian who doesn't do what he says.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No true at all. Its amazing how people can read a bible verse and proceed to add a bunch of flavor and spices to it. Which were not there to begin with.

The verse in John says:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)

That was the test John put out to discern whether the spirit someone is operating in is of God or not. Yet today people pick up what he wrote out of context and fabricate their own tests.

Listen to what John wrote, listen to his test!

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God!



Looks like you have a problem or personal vendetta against christian personalities rather than the operation of Spiritual Gifts in the church today.

In Christ's Love,
Chris.

We need to be warned about "prophets" who are prophesying out of their own minds and opinions instead of from the Holy Spirit. The only test we can apply are the principles found in New Testament Scripture. When we apply the foundation of the fruit of the Spirit, we find that the prophecies don't measure up, because "goodness" and "faithfulness" are fruit of the Spirit, and when two "prophets" go into sexual immorality, they are no longer good or faithful to the holiness requirement that true prophets need to maintain. It is not a "vendetta" but applying appropriate principles to ministry that could cause a lot of damage to many good people who might be deceived into trusting in it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, this isn't true either.

There have been many standards created by Man that can be used to judge prophecy. It was once believed by most all Christians that the keys to the Kingdom were given to Peter, and that the subsequent Popes were all inheritors of that same authority. Therefore the words of the Pope and the Catholic catechism held authority over the words spoken by a prophet.

Many Christians think their denomination's doctrines are of greater importance than prophecy. Most also think that their private interpretation of the Bible is greater too!

The Bible is an awesome tool, and is often the BEST thing we have to judge prophecy with. However, nowhere in scripture is it mentioned that we should judge the Prophets with "The Word". Nor does scripture state exactly what is scripture. Nor does it explain that scripture was not complete until the 66 books we now have were all compiled together, so that we can take "the whole counsel of scripture."

These are Man's doctrines. Perhaps they are good doctrines, but they are subject to the fallible nature of man.



...But if we wish to consider the counsel of scripture, then take a look at how this pertains to the judging of prophecy:

1 Cor 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

According to this scripture, prophecy is to be judged by prophets. IMO this goes back to what I've been saying about familiarity with God. Those who have the most experience with Him should help those with less. Those with the gift of prophecy will have to learn how to stay in touch with God, and can point out the error when someone else strays.

People have gone crazy trying to judge prophecy according to denominational theology and personal interpretation of the Bible. Some consider all prophets false, while others allow just about anything to pass. But according to the scriptures... or at least this scripture, it is the other prophets who are supposed to do the judging. This creates a big problem in the Church if there are no other prophets... which has been the case while the prophetic is being re-awaken in the Body.

Judging by the word is only second best. In the absence of recognized true Prophets, we must do what we must. But I have always found that either the Gift of Discernment, or perhaps the calling as a Prophet myself, have given me a very accurate knowledge of when a prophecy is accurate and to what degree it is accurate. Meanwhile other people take the authority in their own hands to judge the prophecy based upon their knowledge of the Bible, and ignore the Gift of the Spirit that has been handed out to another member of the congregation sitting right beside them.

...And this could be why the Prophetic Movement is the complete and total train wreak that we see today.

Notwithstanding all that, the test is quite simple: Is the prophet operating on the foundation of the fruit of the Spirit. Is he loving God with all his heart, mind and soul by wanting to glorify Christ above all other names, including his own? Is he loving his brothers and sisters in Christ and wanting to build them up in their faith, pointing them to Jesus? Does he radiate the joy of the Lord in his prophecies? When people hear his prophecies, do they have the peace of God in their hearts, and are assured that being justified by faith they have peace with God? Is he patient with those who have difficulty understanding the ways of the Lord? Are his prophecies full of kindness? Is he gentle with those he ministers to? Is he a good person who reflects the goodness of the Lord? Is he faithful to the plans and purposes of God as reflected in the Word? Does he minister with self control?

This test is very straightforward and simple. A self promoting "prophet" who allows his name to be more prominent than the Christ He is meant to serve, is falling short of loving God and pointing people to Jesus, who has a Name above every other Name. Therefore, even if his prophecies are accurate, they are false, because God is not honoured in them.