Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

Status
Not open for further replies.

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,919
37,280
Los Angeles Area
✟842,850.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Three couples whose frozen embryos were destroyed when a wandering Mobile hospital patient dropped the specimens can sue for wrongful death because the embryos were “children,” the Alabama Supreme Court ruled Friday in reversing a judge’s decision to throw out the case.

The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act “applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location,” wrote Alabama Supreme Court Justice Jay Mitchell. “[T]he Wrongful Death of a Minor Act is sweeping and unqualified. It applies to all children, born and unborn, without limitation.

Article about the lower court ruling

“It is clear to this court, based on Alabama’s statutes and case law, that a strong belief in the sanctity of life has not prevented the Alabama Supreme Court from recognizing and upholding our legislature’s clear pattern of using the term in utero” [emphasis original] when defining the unborn or minor child, including in the context of a wrongful death case,” Phillips wrote in her ruling Tuesday.

AL Supreme Court ruling

I gather the thrust of it is that the law says 'child', we've previously ruled that that includes 'unborn child', and that fits these frozen embryos.

If they'd left it there, it might not have had such a whiff of violating church-state separation, but the chief justice's special concurrence wanders off to quote Aquinas, Calvin, van Mastricht, and the Bible (KJV).

In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama [the state constitution literally has a "Sanctity of Life" amendment added in 2018] encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.

The People of Alabama have declared the public policy of this State to be that unborn human life is sacred. We believe that each human being, from the moment of conception, is made in the image of God, created by Him to reflect His likeness. It is as if the People of Alabama took what was spoken of the prophet Jeremiah and applied it to every unborn person in this state: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, Before you were born I sanctified you." Jeremiah 1:5 ... Carving out an exception for the people in this case, small as they were, would be unacceptable to the People of this State, who have required us to treat every human being in accordance with the fear of a holy God who made them in His image.


From some of the dissents, pointing to originalism

In my judgment, the main opinion's view that the legal conclusion is "clear" and "black-letter law" is problematic because when the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act was first enacted in 1872, and for 100 years thereafter, IVF was not even a scientific possibility.
at the time the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act was enacted -- and long thereafter -- the term "unborn child" was only understood to refer to a child within its mother's womb.

It is not our role to expand the reach of a statute and "breathe life" into it by updating or amending it. It is also not our role to consider whether a law has become "stale" or "shelfworn."34 This is the same error made by those commentators who advocate for a living constitution and argue that the words in our Constitution should evolve over time.35

Instead, it is the role of the Legislature to determine whether a law is outdated (for instance, because of new technology) and, thus, requires updating. If our Court does "breathe life" into a law by expanding its reach, we short-circuit the legislative process and violate the Alabama Constitution's separation-of-powers clause.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DaisyDay

NxNW

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,994
3,669
NW
✟198,352.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Three couples whose frozen embryos were destroyed when a wandering Mobile hospital patient dropped the specimens can sue for wrongful death because the embryos were “children,” the Alabama Supreme Court ruled Friday in reversing a judge’s decision to throw out the case.

In summary, the theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama [the state constitution literally has a "Sanctity of Life" amendment added in 2018] encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.

The People of Alabama have declared the public policy of this State to be that unborn human life is sacred. We believe that each human being, from the moment of conception, is made in the image of God, created by Him to reflect His likeness.
Almost looks like an establishment of religion.

It is as if the People of Alabama took what was spoken of the prophet Jeremiah and applied it to every unborn person in this state: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, Before you were born I sanctified you." Jeremiah 1:5 ...
So humans are formed the womb and not at conception (which takes place in the fallopian tube)?
Carving out an exception for the people in this case, small as they were, would be unacceptable to the People of this State, who have required us to treat every human being in accordance with the fear of a holy God who made them in His image.
More establishment, it seems. I don't see this lasting long, even with this SCOTUS.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,919
37,280
Los Angeles Area
✟842,850.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
More establishment, it seems. I don't see this lasting long, even with this SCOTUS.
I expect it will stand. The concurrence is just locker talk. The decision itself seems to rest just on extending definitions into uncharted territory.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Vambram
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
28,755
16,072
✟491,189.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Sounds like a windfall for women who are of childbearing age. Now that embryos are children, they get to be counted as dependents on tax returns, receive welfare, can have life insurance taken out on them, can be gifted appreciated stocks and mutual funds whose tax basis will be reset when they die and the assets are "inherited" back by their parents.

Plus if it is a child as soon as it is conceived, there's going to be lots more "birth"right citizens of illegal immigrants, which I'm sure will make the far-right totally happy they supported this nonsense.

I'm sure there's lots of other benefits that can be dreamed up.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JustOneWay
Upvote 0

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,428
11,110
71
Bondi
✟261,499.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like a windfall for women who are of childbearing age. Now that embryos are children, they get to be counted as dependents on tax returns, receive welfare, can have life insurance taken out on them, can be gifted appreciated stocks and mutual funds whose tax basis will be reset when they die and the assets are "inherited" back by their parents.

Plus if it is a child as soon as it is conceived, there's going to be lots more "birth"right citizens of illegal immigrants, which I'm sure will make the far-right totally happy they supported this nonsense.

I'm sure there's lots of other benefits that can be dreamed up.
There'd be an interesting revised version of the Trolley Problem. A six month old baby on one track. Do you divert the trolley to run over 5 frozen embryos instead?
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Elliewaves
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,501
870
Midwest
✟164,928.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Sounds like a windfall for women who are of childbearing age. Now that embryos are children, they get to be counted as dependents on tax returns, receive welfare, can have life insurance taken out on them, can be gifted appreciated stocks and mutual funds whose tax basis will be reset when they die and the assets are "inherited" back by their parents.

Plus if it is a child as soon as it is conceived, there's going to be lots more "birth"right citizens of illegal immigrants, which I'm sure will make the far-right totally happy they supported this nonsense.

I'm sure there's lots of other benefits that can be dreamed up.
Did you read the article? Them being children is in the specific context of The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, not a statement that they count as children in every single instance of any law.

In fact, the question here wasn't whether unborn children--that is, in the womb--count as children for the purpose of The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act; previous rulings had already established that. The question was whether frozen embryos, which aren't in the womb, count as such.
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
28,755
16,072
✟491,189.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
There'd be an interesting revised version of the Trolley Problem. A six month old baby on one track. Do you divert the trolley to run over 5 frozen embryos instead?
I think we all know the correct answer to this problem is to run away from the lever screaming in horror, so that one doesn't prove much.

What will prove things is how quickly the people in charge of making these decisions find excuses to likewise run away from accepting the legal consequences of expanding the definition of child past any narrow one which furthers their very specific attempts to write religion into law.
 
Upvote 0

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,428
11,110
71
Bondi
✟261,499.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Did you read the article? Them being children is in the specific context of The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act...
No, they want the definition of child to include frozen embryos so that therefore they can be included in the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. The latter has to proceed from the former.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,501
870
Midwest
✟164,928.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, they want the definition of child to include frozen embryos so that therefore they can be included in the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. The latter has to proceed from the former.
Huh? That's not what it says:

Three couples whose frozen embryos were destroyed when a wandering Mobile hospital patient dropped the specimens can sue for wrongful death because the embryos were “children,” the Alabama Supreme Court ruled Friday in reversing a judge’s decision to throw out the case.

The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act “applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location,” wrote Alabama Supreme Court Justice Jay Mitchell. “[T]he Wrongful Death of a Minor Act is sweeping and unqualified. It applies to all children, born and unborn, without limitation.


It's pretty clear that this is in reference to the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, and only that act. This is more obvious when looking at the opinion (which, as is frustratingly common, the article doesn't bother to link to):

At the start, it says:

This Court has long held that unborn children are "children" for purposes of Alabama's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, § 6-5-391, Ala. Code 1975, a statute that allows parents of a deceased child to recover punitive damages for their child's death.

So, there is nothing new in stating that unborn children are children for the purpose of this law. Again, note it says "for purposes of Alabama's Wrongful Death of a MInor Act", not that they are counted as such in all laws. It then goes on:

The central question presented in these consolidated appeals, which involve the death of embryos kept in a cryogenic nursery, is whether the Act contains an unwritten exception to that rule for extrauterine children -- that is, unborn children who are located outside of a biological uterus at the time they are killed. Under existing black-letter law, the answer to that question is no: the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location.

It has already been ruled that it applies to children in the womb, the only question in this case is whether this applies to frozen embryos which are extrauterine. The case doesn't decide anything other than that. So it isn't any kind of "windfall" for women because the decision is rather limited in effect.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bradskii

I have become comfortably numb.
Aug 19, 2018
16,428
11,110
71
Bondi
✟261,499.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The central question presented in these consolidated appeals, which involve the death of embryos kept in a cryogenic nursery, is whether the Act contains an unwritten exception to that rule for extrauterine children -- that is, unborn children who are located outside of a biological uterus at the time they are killed. Under existing black-letter law, the answer to that question is no: the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location.
That quote specifically suggests that frozen embryos are children. And that therefore there is no exception to the rule in the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. The decision that extrauterine cells (I'm not going to call them children) can be legally classed as children needs to be taken before it is decided if there is an exception to the act.

This has implications other than the act.
 
Upvote 0

Derf

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2021
1,463
362
61
Colorado Springs
✟99,992.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Another way to look at this is that if a frozen embryo is outside the womb, it is already "born", in which case it would fit under the more stringent category of "born" child, rather than "unborn" child. I'm not sure what to do when the embryo has been frozen for 18 years...does it get an absentee ballot?

Either way, why would this result be egregious to anyone? Aren't conceived children of great worth in God's eyes? Isn't that why we have laws against murder (of born people, even), because human beings are of great worth in God's eyes?

I applaud this decision, along with Alabama for their 2018 sanctity of life amendment.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Angels Team
Feb 10, 2013
15,525
9,073
28
Nebraska
✟256,156.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Another way to look at this is that if a frozen embryo is outside the womb, it is already "born", in which case it would fit under the more stringent category of "born" child, rather than "unborn" child. I'm not sure what to do when the embryo has been frozen for 18 years...does it get an absentee ballot?

Either way, why would this result be egregious to anyone? Aren't conceived children of great worth in God's eyes? Isn't that why we have laws against murder (of born people, even), because human beings are of great worth in God's eyes?

I applaud this decision, along with Alabama for their 2018 sanctity of life amendment.
Very well said.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

IceJad

Regular Member
May 23, 2005
1,902
1,136
41
✟104,861.00
Country
Malaysia
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Why can't they sue? If you accidentally drop my belongings and destroy them I'm in all my rights to seek legal action. And how severe the legal action depends on what the belongings are. How are you going to replace the embryos? Donate yours with a different DNA from the couples? It's like accidentally running over a family pet then say I'll just buy you another as long as it's the same species. People have emotional attachment.

All this uptightness is because the law recognizes the embryo as a "child". People get offended by the definition of the word being used on things they don't agree on. If this is just a normal case of drop a donor's organ, people will all be in agreement that a lawsuit is valid.

Yes yes your opinion of what a child is is enlightening, mind blowing in fact. So again whos going to compensate the couples for their embryos and how to go by it? Legally right?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
28,755
16,072
✟491,189.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Another way to look at this is that if a frozen embryo is outside the womb, it is already "born", in which case it would fit under the more stringent category of "born" child, rather than "unborn" child.
So they'd be considered US citizens, even if their parents weren't. And they could be adopted and counted as dependents on a tax return and for the purposes of getting government assistance. When they're 5 years old, local governments will have to begin paying for their education.

Seems like a lot of unintended consequences if this idea is applied consistently.

Not to mention the issue of a state government trying to enforce "theologically based" laws.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.