From Southern Baptism to Roman Catholicism: Discernment

[lismore]

Now I see you can speak of civility but change the tenor of the whole forum into a place where attacks are the new norm.

I'm not attacking you. If I have caused any personal hurt to yourself I apologise. But I think people should be permitted to raise doctrinal issues. I'm a former Catholic, maybe the brother doesn't know what he's getting into. Why don't we try to address the substance of the posts now. Do you have anything to say to the doctrinal posts raised? God Bless

 

[Tigger45]

Statement of Purpose - Looking for a Church Forum Statement of Purpose

Welcome to the Looking for a Church forum! We encourage members here to ask questions about churches and denominations, doctrines, practices, etc. in order to facilitate their search for a church home. This is not a place for debate, teaching, or proselytizing. Posts and threads of this manner will be considered off-topic and may be closed or removed. Please do not start threads here to advertise your congregation, these will also be considered off-topic to the forum.

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[chevyontheriver]

I'm not attacking you. If I have caused any personal hurt to yourself I apologise. But I think people should be permitted to raise doctrinal issues. I'm a former Catholic, maybe the brother doesn't know what he's getting into. Why don't we try to address the substance of the posts now. Do you have anything to say to the doctrinal posts raised? God Bless

Please bother to read post 22 immediately following your last post. This particular forum has been a place, up to now, where we didn't attack other Christian groups. From the rules quoted in post 22, presuming those rules still stand and you have not replaced them already, we should not be cutting down our enemies here. You have most of the rest of Christian Forums to do exactly that.

 

[HardHead]

I was only looking for concrete examples of what 'works' means in this context. I have heard people talk about this but no one ever seems to say exactly what a 'work' is per se. I am not disparaging or putting down anyone by asking this, at least I hope not.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was only looking for concrete examples of what 'works' means in this context. I have heard people talk about this but no one ever seems to say exactly what a 'work' is per se. I am not disparaging or putting down anyone by asking this, at least I hope not.

If you want 500 highly charged posts on that put a new thread in almost any other part of Christian Forums and title it 'Faith and Works' and you will get everything you wanted and more. This particular forum is not for debate or attack or talking down any groups of Christians. It is supposed to be friendly, helpful, and non-controversial.

 

[HardHead]

This particular forum is not for debate or attack or talking down any groups of Christians. It is supposed to be friendly, helpful, and non-controversial.

I was only asking for examples. I'm not attacking anyone or their beliefs. I simply don't know what this term means in an actual practical way.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I was only asking for examples. I'm not attacking anyone or their beliefs. I simply don't know what this term means in an actual practical way.

I know you aren't. It's a contentious issue best not addressed here because it is so contentious.

 

[Albion]

I was only looking for concrete examples of what 'works' means in this context. I have heard people talk about this but no one ever seems to say exactly what a 'work' is per se. I am not disparaging or putting down anyone by asking this, at least I hope not.

A "work" is, in theory, a meritorious act that we perform. That is to say, believers are thought by some denominations to earn salvation by having faith AND ALSO by doing good deeds (otherwise called "works" or "good works).

In contrast to this concept, the churches of the Reformation taught (and still do) that we are saved by Faith in Christ's meritorious act on the Cross which paid the price for the sins of mankind. Thus assured of our salvation by Faith, we will do good because having Faith in Christ automatically means a commitment to follow Christ's teachings which, as we all know, stressed charity, love, kindness towards the less fortunate, etc.

However, the churches which teach salvation by Faith and by Works both also consider religious acts like pilgrimages and church service to be goods works as well, acts of devotion to God rather than acts of mercy performed for other people.
……………………..……………………………………………………………………………………………..
So that's it: Faith plus works--a package that requires both for salvation
versus
Faith Alone, which produces works that, however, do not earn anything towards our prospects for salvation, since that has already been obtained by Faith.
……………………..…………………………………………………………………………………………….
Incidentally, the churches that teach Faith plus works (also called "works righteousness") do not have an answer for how many such works are required or which works in particular are needed.

 

[HardHead]

A "work" is, in theory, a meritorious act that we perform.

I get all of that. I see the sola fide argument and I know how it fits into the idea of certain denominations/churches doing their teaching/practice. I also see the opposite to the sola fide argument as well.

What I'm asking for is a list of specific works that perhaps count as meritorious. In that practical sense, I'm not sure what this term 'work' means or what it amounts to in a real tangible way.

Could it be anything or is it something specific that is prescribed by a given church or at the congregation level even?

The clearest example I have is in James 2:15-16 that mentions providing for the poor. That is clearly scriptural and its context seems to be that good works are driven as a consequence of faith.

Is this provision for the poor the only focus here or are there other possibilities?

For example, is giving alms a meritorious work? Is helping an older but perhaps wealthy person to cross the street or to carry her groceries a meritorious work? Volunteering in a soup kitchen that provides meals to the homeless?

Does the 'work' need to be approved by a church person before it is 'officially' seen/recognized as a 'work'? Do churches/congregations have lists of 'works' if this is an important practice for them?

Choosing a church could be impacted by this in a general sense. This is why I asked in this sub-forum/thread when the opportunity came up.

 

[Albion]

I get all of that. I see the sola fide argument and I know how it fits into the idea of certain denominations/churches doing their teaching/practice. I also see the opposite to the sola fide argument as well.

What I'm asking for is a list of specific works that perhaps count as meritorious.

Sorry. No one can provide such a list. Or tell you which good works count for more than other ones. However, your salvation depends on knowing the answer if you belong to one of the FAITH PLUS WORKS denominations.

 

[HardHead]

Sorry. No one can provide such a list.

Nice. Thanks.

 

[HardHead]

Or tell you which good works count for more than other ones.

This is a good point. It's likely personal and it depends on your station in life, level of spiritual growth, etc. For example: Matthew 19:21 vs. Mark 12:41-44 where one person gave all she had and one did not.

 

[HardHead]

your salvation depends on knowing the answer

Interesting. I will ponder this a bit but I get your point.

Also, more discussion of this topic in this thread or sub-forum is probably not the best idea.

Thanks for accommodating me and my questions.

 

[Albion]

This is a good point. It's likely personal and it depends on your station in life, level of spiritual growth, etc. For example: Matthew 19:21 vs. Mark 12:41-44 where one person gave all she had and one did not.

and there the comparison is between the extremes. We assume that giving all you have is better or more meritorious than being miserly. But how do we compare the more routine acts of charity that we engage in or witness in everyday life?

No one can say, nor does the church that believes in works righteousness have an answer. In a way, that's peculiar, isn't it?

 

[HardHead]

No one can say

I suppose that the answer may be that certainly God knows.

One could argue that transferring this knowledge/ability to some people as a result of a contact with God, prayer, level of holiness, or special entitlement in a church hierarchy could also be possible. The argument is probably based on the assignment given to the apostles to loose/bind in Matthew 18:18, and the events in Acts 15, etc.

This argument probably suggests that judgement is in the hands of the apostles and presumably the ability to assign 'works' or to evaluate them in some way. However, this does not suggest at all to me that the assignment of 'works' provides a road to salvation so to speak.

Personally, I prefer to think that faith provides salvation through the Cross, and that good works follow afterwards for each of us to whatever degree. This follows as a result of a conversion process and therefore as a result of choosing to follow Christ.

Whatever the case, this discussion is likely not going to be resolved here.

 

[Albion]

I suppose that the answer may be that certainly God knows.

That we can all agree to. However, what kind of a theology is it that cannot let the members know what kind, how many of them, etc. etc. but leaves them with "Salvation is by Faith and Good works, that's it?"

This argument probably suggests that judgement is in the hands of the apostles and presumably the ability to assign 'works' or to evaluate them in some way.

But this doesn't happen.

However, this does not suggest at all to me that the assignment of 'works' provides a road to salvation so to speak.

I understand. But here I am simply looking at that POV, not endorsing it.

 

[HardHead]

not endorsing it.

OK.

However,

I have no idea, I think.