Formal Debate: Was Jesus crucified on a Friday?

[ScottBot]

Affirmative: LamorakDesGalis
Negative: WailingWall
Rounds: 3 rounds for a total of 6 posts.
Format: Alternating rounds initiated by the affirmative and concluding with the negative.
Time limit between posts: 1 week maximum, no minimum.
Maximum length for each post: 1000 words.
Quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% rule, which means that each response may contain no more than 200 words which quote or reference an outside source. The quote/reference citation is not part of the grand word total for the post, but proper citation is necessary if used.
Start Date: 3/17/2008

If you wish to comment on the debate, here is the link to the Gallery: http://christianforums.com/t7028078-formal-debate-gallery-was-jesus-crucified-on-a-friday.html

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In this debate we will examine the evidences for and against a Friday crucifixion. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Christian tradition has held that Jesus was crucified on a Friday, buried before sundown, and was resurrected on Sunday. However in the last few centuries some have challenged the tradition of a Friday crucifixion. Based largely on Matthew 12:40, they claim that Jesus was in the grave for a literal “three days and three nights” - in other words, a 72 hour period. Therefore they claim Jesus was crucified on a Thursday or Wednesday instead of a Friday. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]On the surface, Matthew 12:40 appears to support a Wednesday or perhaps a Thursday crucifixion theory. In the passage Jesus said:

[/FONT] "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]However in comparing Scripture with Scripture, its possible to see how Bible passages refer to “three day” time periods as inclusive rather than literal 72 hour periods. An inclusive period means that the “three days” refer to a calendar day, whether part or the day or the whole day. In the traditional view, Jesus was buried for part of Friday, all of Saturday, and part of Sunday.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Here is 2 Chronicles 10:5:

[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]"He [Rehoboam] said to them [people of Israel], "Return to me again in three days."

[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So the people departed. Then in verse 12:

So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day as the king had directed, saying, "Return to me on the third day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The Chronicles passage shows that the Jews understood "the third day" as an inclusive third day. If they understood it as a literal 72 hour period, they would have returned on the fourth day. Another passage, 1 Samuel 30:12-13, equates "three days and three nights" with "3 days ago." This is another inclusive reckoning. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In the NT Luke 13:31-33 Jesus also refers to three days: today (the day He spoke), tomorrow and the next day. As in Chronicles and Samuel, Jesus is using an inclusive understanding of three days, not a literal 72 hours. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Also in Luke 24:21, the two disciples on the road to Emmaus considered that Sunday to be “the third day” since “these things happened” - “these things” being the events centered around the crucifixion. Again, its an inclusive reckoning, since they were in the midst of their “third day” - Sunday.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If a third day was considered inclusive of "three days," then a 1) Friday crucifixion + 2) Saturday in the grave + 3) Sunday resurrection is not just a possibility, but its very likely based on the Biblical usage of the terms cited above. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The Gospel writers were quite specific in using a term to identify the day of crucifixion. They referred to the day of crucifixion as “preparation day.” An understanding of what was meant by the term “preparation day” is one of the crucial issues in this debate. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The Greek word used in Scripture for "day of Preparation" is paraskeue. The word itself is used only a total of six times in Scripture, and all six references are listed below:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Matthew 27:62-63 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Now on [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the next day, the day after the preparation[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]63[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]am to [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]rise again.' [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Mark 15:42 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] When evening had already come, because it was [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the preparation day[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], that is, the day before the Sabbath, [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Luke 23:53-54 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] And he took it [Jesus' body] down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]54[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] It was [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the preparation day[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], and the Sabbath was about to begin. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 19:14 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Now it was [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the day of preparation[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!" [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 19:31 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Then the Jews, because it was [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the day of preparation[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]that [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]they might be taken away. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John 19:42 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] therefore because of [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the Jewish day of preparation[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif], since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is an important connection between the “day of preparation” and the Sabbath in the Synoptic Gospels. John further adds that the Sabbath day is also the Passover. But what exactly was meant by the “day of preparation?”[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]While the 6 Scripture only references are listed above, the word paraskeue was also used in Jewish literature before Jesus day, and in early Christian literature.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In the literature written before Jesus' day, the term paraskeue was used in Judith 8:6 and 2 Maccabees 8:26 as "the day before the Sabbath" (Friday). So Jewish understanding was that Preparation Day is equal to Friday – or the day before the Sabbath. In Scripture, both Mark 15:42 and John 19:41-42 states very specifically that the “day of preparation” was before the Sabbath.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In early Christian literature, paraskeue was used specifically for Friday: Didache 8:1 tells Christians to fast literally "on the fourth day and Preparation." The fourth day was a term for Wednesday, while Preparation was used for Friday. Its also interesting that in modern Greek, the word paraskeue is actually a technical term for Friday.

[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So the Biblical and extra-Biblical evidence shows that paraskeue - the day of preparation – refers to the day before the Sabbath, or Friday. The use of paraskeue therefore is certainly is favor of a Friday crucifixion.


LDG
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[WailingWall]

A while back i was reading the bible when i came to read this scripture

MATT.12 [39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO SHALL THE SON OF MAN BE THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

For the life of me i couldnt figure how friday evening to sunday morning equaled three days AND three nights. At best i could come up with was one full day and two full nights. I know what was said in Matthew 12 had to be gospel because it was Jesus Himself who made the statement. I started to ask around concerning this and someone stated it was a greek idiom. However this as it was explained to me still made no sence what so ever. Not only did it not make sence but the book of Jonas was not written in greek. It was written in Hebrew. Because the bible states that many would come in the name of Jesus and decieve the many, i decided i would stop asking people about the questions i had, and dig into the Word and see if it said what the many said it said or if what Jesus said had come about as He said it would. That being said...

JOHN 11 [9] Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.[10] But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

I really dont think Jesus was into those greek idioms. He knew how many hours there were in a day. And as i said before, it was He who made the statement about the three days and three nights. Not some greek math major. A year ago or so i was watching sunday morning tv and this fellow had a whole different story to tell about the three days and three nights and it was amazing. Facts were (according to him) that the count down for the three days and three nights started when the soldiers came into the garden and took Jesus. He really doug deep to come up with that one. Unless of course Jonas’s three day and three nights started while he was being thrown about on the boat. No doubt, the boat theory holds no water either. It has sunk.

There are many who will point to early so called Christian writers and writings to make their point on this matter. But that seems rather foolish and a waste of time according to scriptures below.

2 PETER 2 [1] But there were FALSE PROPHETS also among the people, even as there shall be FALSE TEACHERS among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[2] And MANY SHALL FOLLOW their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.[3] And through covetousness shall they WITH FEIGNED WORDS MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU:

1 JOHN 2 [18] Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRISTS; whereby we know that it is the last time. [19] THEY WENT OUT FROM US, BUT THEY WERE NOT OF US; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

One of the biggest questions that need be asked of those who believe the friday till sunday theory is when did the girls go shopping for the spices? This is very important in that according to the law they could not shop or prepare the spices after sundown on the day Jesus was crucified because it marked the beginning of a sabbath. Even though Jesus told the apostles a few times that this would happen, none expected it to happen so quickly. The girls that prepared the spices had no clue it was to happen. They did not go out and buy the spices ahead of time in preparation of His death because they did not even know He would be crucified at that time.

MARK 15 [40] There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was MARY MAGDALENE, AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JAMES THE LESS AND OF JOSES, AND SALOME;[41] (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.[42] And now WHEN THE EVEN WAS COME, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,[43] Joseph of Arimathaea, and honourable counseller, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus.[44] And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.[45] And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.[46] And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.[47] AND MARY MAGDALENE AND MARY THE MOTHER OF JOSES BEHELD WHERE HE WAS LAID.

In light of the fact that they did not buy the spices before the day Christ was crucified, the big question is, when did they buy the spices? According to the above scripture they were present at the tomb till sundown which begins the sabbath, which means they had to wait till after the sabbath to purchase the spices. So, when did they buy the spices?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

For the life of me i couldnt figure how friday evening to sunday morning equaled three days AND three nights. At best i could come up with was one full day and two full nights.

If the phrase "three days and three nights" had meant a literal 72 hours, then anything which happened after this period is necessarily on the fourth day. However Jesus Himself in Luke 18:33 said this to His disciples:

"and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again."

Jesus cannot have been buried for a literal 72 hours and then have risen on the third day. Jesus died on Preparation Day, was buried for part of that day (Friday), all of Saturday and part of Sunday. On the third day - Friday-Saturday-Sunday meant Jesus rose again on Sunday.

I know what was said in Matthew 12 had to be gospel because it was Jesus Himself who made the statement. I started to ask around concerning this and someone stated it was a greek idiom. However this as it was explained to me still made no sence what so ever. Not only did it not make sence but the book of Jonas was not written in greek. It was written in Hebrew.

In the opening post of this debate, I never said it was a Greek idiom. So that isn't relevant to this debate. In fact I referred to passages in both the Old Testament and the New Testament which show that the Hebrews referred to a three day period as an inclusive period.

Jesus Himself referred to an inclusive three day period not only in Luke 18:33, but also in Luke 13:32:

And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.'

JOHN 11 [9] Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.[10] But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

I really dont think Jesus was into those greek idioms. He knew how many hours there were in a day. And as i said before, it was He who made the statement about the three days and three nights. Not some greek math major.

Once again, if one assumes Jesus was in the grave for a literal 72 hour period, then that would mean Jesus' resurrection would occur after 72 hours. Which means on the fourth day. However, just taking the Gospel of Matthew we see that the references are to the third day for the resurrection, not the fourth:

Matthew 16:21 21 ¶ From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

Matthew 17:23 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day." And they were deeply grieved.

Matthew 20:19 19 and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up."

Matthew 27:64 "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."

The above verses are not "Greek idioms." They clearly show - in English - that Jesus was resurrected on the third day, not the fourth day. Anyone advocating a literal 72 hour period for Jesus' burial means 3 full days and nights, which leaves no room for a third day resurrection. Anything less than 72 hours is going to be the inclusive reckoning argued for in the initial post.

A year ago or so i was watching sunday morning tv and this fellow had a whole different story to tell about the three days and three nights and it was amazing. Facts were (according to him) that the count down for the three days and three nights started when the soldiers came into the garden and took Jesus. He really doug deep to come up with that one. Unless of course Jonas’s three day and three nights started while he was being thrown about on the boat. No doubt, the boat theory holds no water either. It has sunk.

I also do not agree with the Sunday morning TV preacher. In my opening post I argued that "three days" refers to either part of a day or the whole day. This means that the Bible often refers to periods of time like three days as an inclusive period. In Luke 13:32, Jesus spoke of "today, tomorrow and the third day." Certainly the first day - "today" - had already begun, so it wasn't a complete day. The second day - "tomorrow" - was a full day. And if Jesus said He reached His goal on the third day, then that means sometime before the third day was complete.

There are many who will point to early so called Christian writers and writings to make their point on this matter. But that seems rather foolish and a waste of time according to scriptures below.

Included in the original post of the debate are references in Judith 8:6 and 2 Maccabees 8:26, which are actually Jewish writings. The point is that the term paraskeue is a reference to "the day before the Sabbath" - Friday. This means that before Christianity came upon the scene, the Jewish understanding was that Preparation Day was equal to Friday. And the Scriptures are explicit in that Jesus was crucified on Preparation Day.

One of the biggest questions that need be asked of those who believe the friday till sunday theory is when did the girls go shopping for the spices? This is very important in that according to the law they could not shop or prepare the spices after sundown on the day Jesus was crucified because it marked the beginning of a sabbath.

The day before the Sabbath - Preparation Day - is not the Sabbath. The Scriptures are clear that Jesus died on the day before the Sabbath. Jesus died around 3pm, about 3 hours before the Sabbath began in the evening. That left more than enough time for the disciples to purchase the burial clothing and spices.

Also, the Sabbath would have lasted from 6pm Friday evening until 6pm Saturday evening. After 6pm on Saturday, the Sabbath was over, and additional spices could have been bought then as well.

In light of the fact that they did not buy the spices before the day Christ was crucified, the big question is, when did they buy the spices? According to the above scripture they were present at the tomb till sundown which begins the sabbath, which means they had to wait till after the sabbath to purchase the spices. So, when did they buy the spices?

Its clear that Joseph bought linen on the day that Jesus was crucified:

Mark 15:46 Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth

Its also clear that the women bought spices on the day that Jesus was crucified:

Luke 23:55-56 55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

And it is clear that not only did the disciples wrapped Jesus' body with linen, they also prepared it with spices:

John 19:39-40 39 Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. 40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.

So I think Scripture is clear that the women and disciples not only had time to purchase the spices on the day Jesus died, they also prepared the body to a certain extent.


LDG

 

[barryrob]

The death of Jesus Christ took place in the spring, on the Passover Day, Nisan (or Abib) 14, according to the Jewish calendar. (Mt 26:2; Joh 13:1-3; Ex 12:1-6; 13:4)

In that year the Passover occurred on the sixth day of the week (counted by the Jews as from sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday). This is evident from John 19:31, which shows that the following day was "a great" sabbath. The day after Passover was always a sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it came. (Le 23:5-7) But when this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the week), it became "a great one." So Jesus’ death took place on Friday, Nisan 14, by about 3:00 p.m.—Lu 23:44-46.

barryob​

 

[WailingWall]

First i would like to say do not be decieved by the word easter showing up in your bible. Not sure of all translations but in the KJV you will find the word easter.

Acts 12 [4] And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

pascha, pas’-khah;of Chaldee origin [compare Hebrew 6453 (pecach)]; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it) :- Easter, Passover.

Every other place that you will find this word in the bible it was translated Passover. Someone took libertys with the written word and according to the Word their gonna get the what for!

LamorakDesGalis says there was a three hour window (three hours from the time Christ died till the sabbath) where the girls could have bought the spices AND prepare them. But there wasnt enough time according to scripture. Think about it. After Christ died on the cross im sure there was much consoling being done. Afterwards Joseph of Arimathaea then walked over to Pilates place (who knows how long this took). Then Joseph must convince Pilate that he could take the body of Christ. Then Joseph walks back to the crucified Christ. Then he must take Him off of the cross. That alone could take up very much time. Then Jesus is brought to the tomb. According to scripture of Mark 15 (found in my first post) the girls were still there at evening time and and they watched as the stone was rolled on to the tomb. After all this being done in a three hour period, LamorakDesGalis claims the girls not only had time to go shopping but also came back from shopping and prepared the spices. Just aint no way.

This is the timeline for the three days and three nights that Jesus spoke of. If you were to believe this timeline youll find that ALL the scriptures fit perfectly as would a puzzle. One of LamorakDesGalis main proofs for Jesus being crucified on a friday was the fact that it was the preparation day. Well...hes kinda correct. It was on a preparation day that Jesus was crucified. But it wasnt the preparation day for the weekly sabbath as he believes but for the passover sabbath.

JOHN 19 [14] And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King![15] But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him.

Yup, it was one of the high day (feast day) sabbaths

LEVITICUS 23 [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. [7] In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

You can also find this truth in the book of John. It was indeed a high feast day sabbath.

JOHN 19[31] The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (FOR THAT SABBATH DAY WAS AN HIGH DAY,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Since Mark 15 has the girls at the tomb at about sundown, the beginning of the High Passover sabbath, i would have to think they treated this sabbath as any other. And then..

MARK 16 [1] And WHEN THE SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had BOUGHT SWEET SPICES, that they might come and anoint him.

These women bought sweet spices AFTER the sabbath was past. I know as a last resort many will play the “past tense” card as if they understood the language of the time. But ive found if you believe the written Word as it is written you will come to greater understanding of the Word.

LUKE 23 [56] And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND RESTED THE SABBATH DAY according to the commandment.

They bought the spices AFTER the High Passover sabbath and prepared them and then rested on the weekly sabbath day. Then....

Luke 24 [1] Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. [2] And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. [3] And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

NUMBER ONE – Wednesday evening before sundown Jesus was placed in the tomb. Jesus was placed in the tomb just before the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread which is a high sabbath day as explained in John 19 verse 31. The first full night and day Jesus was in the tomb was the (high Passover sabbath day).

NUMBER TWO – Thursday evening till friday evening. Night and day no.2. This was the day, AFTER the sabbath had passed (Mark 16 verse 1) that the girls went shopping, returned home and prepared the spices.

NUMBER THREE- Full night and day no.3 was, as the Word states in Luke 23, the weekly sabbath day according to the 4th commandment. It was after the WEEKLY sabbath day that they went to the tomb (on the 1st day of the week) and found that Jesus HAD risen. There is nowhere in the Word that says He rose on the first day of the week, only that He had risen.

Just as my Lord said it would be

 

[ChaChynga]

When was Jesus IN THE DEN?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

First i would like to say do not be decieved by the word easter showing up in your bible. Not sure of all translations but in the KJV you will find the word easter.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The term "Easter" isn't a relevant point of contention for this debate. The translations I quoted in my posts used the term Passover, not Easter, and I agree with those translations. [/FONT]

LamorakDesGalis says there was a three hour window (three hours from the time Christ died till the sabbath) where the girls could have bought the spices AND prepare them. But there wasnt enough time according to scripture. Think about it. After Christ died on the cross im sure there was much consoling being done. Afterwards Joseph of Arimathaea then walked over to Pilates place (who knows how long this took). Then Joseph must convince Pilate that he could take the body of Christ. Then Joseph walks back to the crucified Christ. Then he must take Him off of the cross. That alone could take up very much time. Then Jesus is brought to the tomb. According to scripture of Mark 15 (found in my first post) the girls were still there at evening time and and they watched as the stone was rolled on to the tomb. After all this being done in a three hour period, LamorakDesGalis claims the girls not only had time to go shopping but also came back from shopping and prepared the spices. Just aint no way.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This verse was quoted in my last post:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Luke 23:55-56 55 Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Scripture is very clear in saying that the women:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1) saw the tomb and Jesus' body,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]2) then they left - returning with spices and perfumes,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]3) then they prepared the spices, and[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]4) then they rested on the Sabbath which began at 6pm.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So Scripture is clear that all of this happened after Christ died at 3pm and ended when the Sabbath began at 6pm.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And as for purchases that day, its clear in Mark 15 that Joseph of Arimathaea bought some linen cloth:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mark 15:46 So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If Joseph bought linen cloth, then surely other items - such as spices - were also for sale before 6pm. In another verse I quoted in the last post, shows that Nicodemus also brought spices and used it with the linen cloth to prepare Jesus' body:[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

John 19:39-40 39 Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. 40 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Surely Nicodemus and other 1st century Jews didn't keep a hundred pounds of spices around the house in case someone died! That means in John 19:39, as well as in Luke 23:56, the disciples - the women and Nicodemus - bought the spices after Christ died at 3pm and before the Sabbath began at 6pm.[/FONT]

This is the timeline for the three days and three nights that Jesus spoke of. If you were to believe this timeline youll find that ALL the scriptures fit perfectly as would a puzzle. One of LamorakDesGalis main proofs for Jesus being crucified on a friday was the fact that it was the preparation day. Well...hes kinda correct. It was on a preparation day that Jesus was crucified. But it wasnt the preparation day for the weekly sabbath as he believes but for the passover sabbath.

Its good that we have agreement on the fact that Jesus was crucified on preparation day. I think we also agree that Jesus was crucified on Nisan 14, which is in accordance with Mark 14:12 and Exodus 12:6.[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Concerning the use of the term "preparation day" for Friday, I point anyone to my first post outlining how that term was used by both Jews and Christians.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]However if Nisan 14 fell on a Friday, then the passover Sabbath (Nisan 15) and the weekly Sabbath both fell on the same day. That is what John meant in John 19:31 concerning "that Sabbath was a high day." John was referring to a special weekly Sabbath. Here is the sequence of days presented in Mark:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mark 15:42 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was over,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mark 16:2 Very early on the first day of the week,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mark mentions the day of Preparation (Friday), the Sabbath (Saturday), and the first day of the week (Sunday). The Gospel of Mark did not refer to two Sabbath days, only to "before the Sabbath" and "when the Sabbath was over." According to the common usage in Scripture for "Sabbath", its the weekly Sabbath that is in view in Mark.[/FONT]

You can also find this truth in the book of John. It was indeed a high feast day sabbath.

And I also agree that Nisan 15 was regarded as a special day. However I hold that Nisan 15 was both the first day of unleavened bread and the weekly Sabbath.

MARK 16 [1] And WHEN THE SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had BOUGHT SWEET SPICES, that they might come and anoint him.

These women bought sweet spices AFTER the sabbath was past. I know as a last resort many will play the “past tense” card as if they understood the language of the time. But ive found if you believe the written Word as it is written you will come to greater understanding of the Word.

The other passages cited above clearly show the disciples bought spices before Jesus was buried. Mark 16:1 shows that the women bought additional spices after the Sabbath. Again, as I pointed out above, Mark refers to one Sabbath – what they did before the Sabbath and what they did after the Sabbath.

NUMBER ONE – Wednesday evening before sundown Jesus was placed in the tomb. Jesus was placed in the tomb just before the 1st day of the feast of unleavened bread which is a high sabbath day as explained in John 19 verse 31. The first full night and day Jesus was in the tomb was the (high Passover sabbath day).

NUMBER TWO – Thursday evening till friday evening. Night and day no.2. This was the day, AFTER the sabbath had passed (Mark 16 verse 1) that the girls went shopping, returned home and prepared the spices.

NUMBER THREE- Full night and day no.3 was, as the Word states in Luke 23, the weekly sabbath day according to the 4th commandment. It was after the WEEKLY sabbath day that they went to the tomb (on the 1st day of the week) and found that Jesus HAD risen. There is nowhere in the Word that says He rose on the first day of the week, only that He had risen.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thank you WailingWall, for a good summary and clear presentation of a Wednesday crucifixion. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]However there are some major problems I want to point out for those holding to a literal 72 hour period for Jesus' burial. Anything short of a literal 72 hour period is an inclusive reckoning, and would fall within the bounds of what I have argued in previous posts. Anything longer than a literal 72 hour period is...well, its more than the insisted upon literal 3 day and 3 night period. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Now a Sabbath period is reckoned to be from 6pm to 6pm. And its clear from Scripture that Jesus was buried shortly BEFORE the Sabbath. And the Bible is equally clear that Jesus was raised AFTER the weekly Sabbath.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]We don't know the exact time, but let's say Jesus was buried on Wednesday shortly BEFORE the start of the Sabbath around 5:50pm. Well, a literal 72 hour period ends at 5:50pm on the weekly Sabbath. Even if we say Jesus was buried at 5:59pm, 1 minute before the start of the Sabbath, then a literal 72 hour period ends at 5:59pm, and that is still regarded as being ON the weekly Sabbath, not AFTER it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]So if Jesus was buried on a Wednesday BEFORE the start of the Sabbath, and raised AFTER the weekly Sabbath, then Jesus was in the tomb for longer than a literal 72 hour period. [/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Also there is the problem of the “third day.” In the Scriptures, Jesus specifically said He was going to be raised on the third day. Also the disciples on the road to Emmaus said it was the “third day” since these events had happened – the events being the trial, crucifixion and burial of Jesus (Luke 24:21). Since the disciples were speaking on a Sunday, then three days prior would be a Friday. However, if they were referring to a Wednesday, then Wed-Thur-Fri-Sat and then Sunday makes a total of five days, not three.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]As I have argued, both Jesus and the disciples in reference to the “third day” are using an inclusive reckoning.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This is the agreed upon third and last post for me in this debate, so I want to thank the moderators for taking the time to set up the debate. And I want to especially thank WailingWall for participating in this debate. I ask that the Lord may continue to bless WailingWall and the moderators.

LDG
[/FONT]

 

[barryrob]

Jesus Christ was impaled on Friday, Nisan 14th 33 C.E., the date of the Jewish Passover.

 

[WailingWall]

I would like to thank you LamorakDesGalis for giving me the opportunity to debate you on this matter. Also thanks to the Mod Squad who made this all possible. Luke 23 [55-56] does not prove anything you claim. Just because a period of time is left out of a certain scripture does not mean it did not exist. When you look through all the scriptures concerning this matter you will find that it had to be three full days and three full nights. You have shown me scripture proving Joseph of Arimathaea had purchased linen on the preparation day. Why would that be of any concern? I was asking about the girls buying spices and when they went about it. Scripture not only proves that there was not enough time for the girls to buy the spices on the preparation day but theres also a scripture that SAYS they bought the spices after the sabbath (the high Passover sabbath) was past.

You have made the claim that the bible clearly says Jesus rose after the sabbath. Where does the bible even remotely say that? Its true there are many scriptures which say Jesus rose “on the third day”. Your claim is that it could not be a 72 hour period, because if He rose after the third day then it would be the fourth day. Who’se on first? Sorry LamorakDesGalis, i couldnt help myself. Well...according to Jesus, He did rise after the third day.

MARK 8 [29] And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. [30] And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. [31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and AFTER THREE DAYS RISE AGAIN.

What period of time would fit all scripture? “After three days” as Jesus stated in Mark 8 and “on the third day” as found in many scriptures. Think about it. Only the 72 hour period. Only the three full days and full nights as Jesus said it would be. There is no other period of time that would fit all scripture.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]However in comparing Scripture with Scripture, its possible to see how Bible passages refer to “three day” time periods as inclusive rather than literal 72 hour periods. An inclusive period means that the “three days” refer to a calendar day, whether part or the day or the whole day. [/FONT]

Your above quote is used by the many to explain their version of the three days and three nights. Theres just one huge problem with that.

JOHN 20 [1] The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when IT WAS YET DARK, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Youve known all along that you cannot find a portion of a third night. In believing the above scripture you must now believe you cannot find a portion of a third day. When Mary Magdalene came to the place Jesus was buried it was still dark and He had already risen.

So... does it really matter how you believe?

1 Cor. 15 [1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also YE ARE SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless YE HAVE BELIEVED IN VAIN. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; [4] And that HE WAS BURIED, AND THAT HE ROSE AGAIN the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES:

Yup

 

[ScottBot]

The final post has been made by WailingWall and this debate is now concluded. Please comment and/or vote on this debate in the Gallery thread cited in the first post of this thread.

Thank you for your participation LamorakDesGalis and WailingWall.