Formal Debate-Is Isaiah 53 Messianic & does Yeshua (Jesus) fulfill it

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MarkRohfrietsch

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  1. Proposed Topic: Isaiah 53 is Messianic and Yeshua (Jesus) alone fulfills the details of its prophecy.
  2. Participants: Paul (pshun2404) in the affirmative; YM (yonah_mishael) in the negative. pshun2404, taking the Affirmative will begin the debate.
  3. Rounds: Ten rounds, including: an introductory post from each participant; three rounds of back-and-forth debate; and, a concluding post from each participant; should the debate run it's course before the maximum number of rounds is reached, the debate may be closed on mutual consent of the opponents.
  4. Time Limit: One week following the appearance of the most recent post.
  5. Maximum Post Length: The maximum permitted by the software for a single post.
  6. Special Limitations: For the sake of this debate, “Isaiah 53” includes all of the verses between Isaiah 52.13 and the end of the 53rd chapter. Sources quoted must be reasonably accessible to both participants (and, by extension, the audience), who should only quote sources which they have accessed themselves. Sources may be marked in footnotes, which will not count toward the limit on post length, and all quotes are subject to the 20% copyright rule.
  7. Since this is Christian Forums, the peanut gallery(s) will be subject to all of the rules here at CF; so it will be a thread where the debate and it's progress may be discussed; but debate of the topic itself will not be allowed.
  8. Because the very nature of this topic is at odds with the rules of Christian Forums; , the Peanut Gallery will be moderated.
  9. There will be an un-moderated Peanut Gallery created in General Theology, which is Christian Only.
Peanut gallery threads can be found here;

Controversial Topics Peanut Gallery: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825105/#post65712923
General Theology Peanut Gallery: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825107/#post65712946
Messianic Jewish Peanut Gallery: http://www.christianforums.com/t7825168/#post65715535
Addition peanut gallery link -PG question allowed by staff in controversial topics PG : http://www.christianforums.com/t7827661/
Happy debating!
 
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pshun2404

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INTRO

Welcome to all viewing this discussion. My very worthy opponent is taking the stand that this section is not about Messiah, but rather speaks of the people of Israel, I disagree. As a secondary issue we will discuss whether Y’shua (Jesus) is THIS Messiah figure.
Does He fit the criteria outlined in the word of God here and elsewhere? I have taken the challenge and will attempt to show that Isaiah 53 is first speaking of a person, albeit sent by God to perform this purpose, and that Jesus was that person.

Starting in Genesis there are indications that both groups and individuals are called servants of God. I think we can agree that Isaiah’s visions develop the theme most fully (other inferences may be drawn from pre-as well as post Christian writers including but not limited to other Prophets).

Isaiah IMHO develops the theme of “the Servant” along two lines. Sometimes the servant being who I will call “faithful Israel” (because in chapter 1 we see clearly His being done with faithless Israel)! Isaiah’s testimony from the Lord is that they were vile, idolatrous, rebellious, seekers of personal gain, pleasure, and glory and had been so for centuries. Their insincere religiosity, their merely dutiful or traditional sacrifices, prayer, oblations, and even their celebrations of His Sabbaths and Holy Appointed Feasts to which they were in alleged covenant agreement, are by Isaiah’s time (if not before) abominable to Him (save for a remnant…the children of faith).

The second line of thought in Isaiah’s servant theme, is as a somewhat mysterious person, who again IMHO is likened unto faithful Israel personified. Some passages in other chapters indicate this person may be none other than the one the 1st and 2nd century Targumim, and our John, call “the Word of God” who according to the Rabbis was a hypostasis or temporal manifestation of YHVH Himself. If we Christians have this understanding correct, that Jesus is this person, then in this case He was/is not merely appearing in human form but literally became incarnate in the form of a human in order to fulfill this greater purpose of being the sin offering (atonement sacrifice) for the purpose of redemption.

By Isaiah, the house of Israel and the house of Judah are divided and often enemies (politically, culturally, socially, and more). Isaiah clearly indicates a need for reconciliation and restoration, and God’s promise of it in the future. In some of the other prophets it becomes apparent that this will be accomplished by God through an individual sometimes called the Branch, the son of David, the Shepherd, and more. But how can they be reunited in YHVH’s hand when their sin which separated them has not been dealt with, and the unavoidable consequence “death” has not been overcome? Save for a few, they all have been utterly rejected. IMO only the Redeemer promised to come from as early as Genesis 3:15 would make this possible. IMO it is this Messiah in whom the wall of separation is broken down!

In Isaiah 48 we hear YHVH speaking, and in verse 16 He says something mysterious… YHVH says “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”

Now surely there is only one YHVH, but here the prophet recording YHVH’s own words has YHVH being sent from YHVH and His Spirit…hmmm? The Memra? The Word? Hmmm?
In chapter 49 the Lord gives us more insight into this servant, He has the servant say…

“Before I was born the Lord called me; from my mother’s womb He has spoken my name…“The LORD has called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother has he made mention of my name… And said unto me, you art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

But is this one called “Israel” Jacob and his children? IMO this “servant”, also called Israel, cannot be Jacob, or his children, because Israel was named after he was born. Jacob’s mother nowhere spoke his name before he came forth. Ahh! But then the clue…

49:4 … And now says the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to Him, though Israel be not gathered, yet I (the servant “Israel” mentioned above) shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

See how he contrasts himself with the people of Israel? His purpose is to bring Jacob (Israel) back to YHVH? When did the people of Israel ever bring the people of Israel back? When was Israel ever hidden? Then YHVH continues…

And he said, "It is a light thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob (again the contrast), and to restore the preserved of Israel (those Israelites of faith): I will also (in addition to) give you for a light to the Gentiles, that you may be my salvation (yeshuah) unto the end of the earth."


Then later we read…

49:22 Thus says the Lord …Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles (He does this by the servant), and set up my standard to the people (lit. goyim…gentiles): and they shall bring your sons in their arms, and your daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders…

So IMO YHVH had to remove that which caused the separation (Genesis 3:15) from Him and from each other. The lambs, bullocks, and rams offered by unfaithful Israel and unfaithful Judah were no longer acceptable to Him (He had already lifted His hand and turned His face)…His promise (Genesis 1:28) demanded the transgression be removed or paid for by a man (to whom He delegated dominion), but all had sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. His holy justice required blood, but there was no spotless lamb to sacrifice and their heart were uncircumcised…but as father Abraham prophesied, “God will provide Himself a lamb” and I believe that in Isaiah 53 we see just such a Lamb. The Word of YHVH Himself became a man, so the sons of men could once again become the sons of God. In this man/lamb all transgressions, iniquities, and even the disturbance of our peace with God, are healed.
 
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yonah_mishael

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I’d like to open this debate for my part by paying thanks to the forum administration for being willing to host divergent opinions in a formal setting. I feel like this is a step in the right direction for online forums generally, and it seems to me that Christian Forums has taken great initiative in setting up such an environment for exchange of argument and opinion between Christians of various stripes and also non-Christians who wish to debate civilly and reasonably. I’m genuinely thankful to have a place to engage with Christian thinkers in an attempt to sharpen my own thoughts – both through participation and through perusal of other debates – and share the reasons for the positions that I hold on interesting topics like this. I am also indebted to my opponent, Paul, for being willing to take up the discussion and engage me in the debate. It is my highest hope that we will both come away from this thread feeling challenged and having grown in our understanding of this controversial text.

As per my own position in this debate, I am taking the negative side – the side of traditional Judaism – though my thinking on this text is different from other Jewish thinkers whose commentaries I have read. While Christians have used Isaiah 53 as a proof of early claims that Yeshua[1] was the Messiah, the Jewish position in modern times is that the text does not literally speak of the Messiah. This does not mean that individual verses from the passage have not been at some point in Jewish literature used in reference to the Messiah – as they certainly have – but it means that the meaning of the text within the greater context of the book of Isaiah’s prophecies does not have reference to the Messiah or, more specifically, to the death of Yeshua on the cross some two thousand years ago. In other words, even though some rabbis interpreted some parts of Isaiah 53 with regard to the Messiah, the overall context does not support reading the entire passage as a prediction of what would/will happen in the life of the Messiah.

Opening my position here, I would like to quickly discuss some of the parts of the prophecy that are generally adopted to form the Christian understanding of the text in debate. The section of Isaiah’s prophecies that is in question is 52.13-53.12 (beginning with the phrase הנה ישכיל עבדי and ending with ולפשעים יפגיע in the Hebrew text). In the Hebrew text, this is all one section without division. It’s a parashah stumah,[2] which means that it is visibly separate in the text from what precedes it and what follows it. The division of the Christian Bible in chapter and verse caused a break in this servant song that doesn’t belong to the Hebrew text. Isaiah 52.13-53.12 should be thought of as a single unit of text – as a single “poem” or “song” within the greater context of the book. In other words, it is a unit and should not be broken. When we speak of “Isaiah 53,” we also mean to include the last three verses of chapter 52.

The portions of the prophecy that I think are most easily adopted to the Christian position are the following:

  1. The servant would eventually be raised up high. Christians claim that Yeshua ascended into heaven after his resurrection from the dead.
  2. The servant is described as beaten so badly that he was not even recognizably human. I don’t think that the passion narrative goes this far in describing the wounds that Yeshua suffered, but the story certainly presents him as having been beaten and scourged.
  3. There is certainly a vicarious flavor to the text. The text says that this servant was familiar with sickness[3] and that this sickness that he suffered was really supposed to have been experienced by the speaker and the audience. This is what it means when it says: Indeed, he bore our sicknesses and suffered our pains (53.4). It means that when he was sick, it was our sickness, and when he was in pain, it should have been us that went through that pain. The vicarious tone of the text was adapted easily into Christianity’s claim that the Messiah was to come and suffer for others.
  4. The servant was to make intercession for criminals and bear the sin of many. This certainly sounds like what Yeshua did – in that Christianity says that he is the advocate for those who believe in him whenever they happen to fall into sin.

In fact, some missionary organizations are so convinced of the text and how it seems to speak of Yeshua that they simply print out the text and give it away in hopes that those who read it will automatically connect it to Yeshua and turn to him as believers. It is the “hole in one” in the toolkit of those who argue that the Hebrew Bible teaches about and predicts the events of Yeshua’s life.

Yet, the text is not as Messiah-specific as one might think upon a cursory reading. I will mention throughout this debate several reasons why I believe this text speaks about the land of Israel and the righteous among the people as the servant who suffered unnecessarily for the misdeeds of others and why it cannot be speaking of the Messiah generally or Yeshua specifically.

Isaiah 53 speaks of the servant being beaten, bruised, sick, disfigured, abused, etc. It may come as a surprise to those who do not read Isaiah’s prophecies as a whole text, but from the very beginning of the prophecy of Isaiah these very word images are applied to Israel. Look at Isaiah 1.5-6 (NIV) here:

Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil.​

This is poetic language, and it might be difficult for us to understand what the prophet meant if he had not immediately followed these two verse with this (Isaiah 1.7-9 [NIV]):

Your country is desolate,
your cities burned with fire;
your fields are being stripped by foreigners
right before you,
laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.
Daughter Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
like a hut in a cucumber field,
like a city under siege.
Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.​

We thus understand that “sickness,” “beating” and the like is a metaphor for desolation of the land. When it says that the “servant” (identified throughout the prophecy of Isaiah as Israel) was beaten, disfigured, abandoned, abused and forsaken, we are to understand that this is speaking of the abandonment of the land and the dissolution of the people who had inhabited it. That is, it is speaking of exile and the loss of the land to the people. This is what we get by looking at the greater context of the prophecy of Isaiah. The land of Israel was inhabited by people who rebelled against God’s commands and ignored his warnings. As repayment for their rebellion, they were destroyed from the land – and only a remnant remained. This remnant mourned the loss of the land, saying that it was “our sins” that caused the land to be lost, that caused the people to be “cut off from the land of the living” – which means that they were cut off from the promised land and sent into exile.

This is how I read Isaiah 53 and how it makes best sense to me with regard to the rest of the book of Isaiah.

In my future posts, in addition to responding to the arguments of my opponent, I would like to address the following questions:

(1) What if Isaiah 53 really is talking about the Messiah? What kind of person would it be speaking of? (2) Can Yeshua possibly have been in the mind of the prophet (indeed, of God) when this text was written? Why or why not?

Again, thank you for the opportunity to present my thoughts on this issue, and many thanks to my opponent in this debate for taking it up with me. I look forward to the back-and-forth that this discussion will allow.

Todah rabbah,
YM

FOOTNOTES:
  1. “Yeshua” (ישוע) is the name that Messianic Jews and Gentiles use to refer to Jesus, whose name in English has been derived from Greek (Ἰησοῦς) through Latin (Iesus). I use “Yeshua” here only out of deference to my opponent in this debate. In my personal communication, I continue to use the traditional name “Jesus” both from force of habit and because the earliest extant records of this man’s life were written in Greek with the name as written above (or abbreviated simply to ΙϹ for ΙΗϹΟΥϹ).
  2. Parashah stumah (פרשה סתומה) is one kind of division of the Hebrew Bible. It is where there is a line of space in the text that does not end an entire line, a section of text that is divided off from the previous and following sections by white space in the middle of a line. If the text breaks completely, it is called parashah ptuchah (פרשה פתוחה). Mechon Mamre marks the end of chapter 52 with {ס} to say that it is separated from chapter 53, but that division is not in normally marked Tanach editions. It seems to be a mistake.
  3. The Hebrew phrase is yedua choli (ידוע חלי), which means that he often experienced sickness – something that we cannot associate with Yeshua, for whom there is no recorded story of him ever having been sick at any point.
 
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pshun2404

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In my response section I will address some of the points made by Yonah. First I would disagree that “the text does not literally speak of the Messiah” as I would qualify this by saying it does not speak of the end time Messiah figure we are both waiting for. As for whether this set of passages addresses one of the Bible’s two scenarios for Messiah, I believe that must be weighed out through association with other passages, some of which come from other prophets and in other Jewish writings from before the time of Jesus. Having said that, I would agree that the term “Messiah” not being used and the person Jesus/Yeshua not being specifically mentioned makes this section, if taken alone, somewhat difficult to positively identify him as that specific one.

As for the question of divisions into chapter and verse, I suppose the first was the New Covenant writings by Stephen Langton, Arch-Bishop of Cantebury (13th century), followed by the divisions of the Masoretic Old Covenant writings by Rabbi Isaac Nathan ben Kalonymus in the 15th, and then finally an additional change was made by a Jewish Christian, Robert Estienne (Stephanus) who used Nathan’s verse divisions of the Tanakh to put the New Covenant writings into the standard numbered verses we are familiar with today. But in the end YES we are left with splintered chapters we alas have to deal with. As for our section, I must note all Christian students of the Bible I have ever encountered always noted the “section” really begins with 52:13.

1. The servant would eventually be raised up high. Christians claim that Yeshua ascended into heaven after his resurrection from the dead.

Yes Christians do claim that, but never draw from this inference to support that. It is more the case they infer by this “lifted up” (Numbers 21:9; John 12:32) His crucifixion and that this would lead to His reputation the purpose of which would attract and draw even the gentiles to the God of Abraham (who they never knew).

2. The servant is described as beaten so badly that he was not even recognizably human. I don’t think that the passion narrative goes this far in describing the wounds that Yeshua suffered, but the story certainly presents him as having been beaten and scourged.

Well first, I never read the not recognizably human part, however let us consider the facts. The word “his” (a singular male pronoun) is being compared to “any human being” (a singular generic pronoun)… …after being up most of the night, being buffeted about his face by Roman Guards, and hit with sticks (later bruising and swelling), punctured by the Thorn crown (blood flowing down), then being lashed with a Roman flagrum many times (allegedly 39), then dragged profusely bleeding to Herod (I am sure they made Him walk or pulled Him), blood flowing, and no water or food, swollen face grimaced from pain, becoming paler by the moment from loss of blood, sleepless, back to Pilate! I would say that extremely indicates disfigured and marred, but people would still know he was a human.

3. There is certainly a vicarious flavor to the text. The text says that this servant was familiar with sickness and that this sickness that he suffered was really supposed to have been experienced by the speaker and the audience. This is what it means when it says: Indeed, he bore our sicknesses and suffered our pains (53.4). It means that when he was sick, it was our sickness, and when he was in pain, it should have been us that went through that pain. The vicarious tone of the text was adapted easily into Christianity’s claim that the Messiah was to come and suffer for others.

Sadly for my opponent, I believe his own assessment negates his main point (that this is Israel the people). The linguistic contrast between “he” and “our” (Isaiah and his people Israel) is quite apparent and we must remember this distinction was in fact the “interpretation” given by the Rabbis since long before Jesus was born. And yes but the sicknesses and pains he bore though described here in terms of Isaiah and Israel (another case of a distinction from the “he” spoken of) were the spiritual sicknesses and pains referred to in the section, not individual’s physical sicknesses and pains. These are clearly described as (the sicknesses and pains or consequences of) transgressions, iniquities, and as such that would have (and did) disturb their shalom (peace, completion, well-being) with the Lord (as well as with each other, Isreal and Judah already being divided). Again we read “he” (the servant) was despised, and “we” (Isaiah and his people) did esteem “him” smitten of God (implying this one would be believed to have deserved it). This continuous subject object relationship was NOT the work of Christians but Holy men of old Moved by the Holy Spirit.

I am also glad you brought up Isaiah 1 because what we learn from it that at this point God is anything but using Israel for some vicarious purpose. He is done, fed up, and separating Himself (lifting His hand). These people’s (unfaithful Israel as opposed to the small faithful remnant) wounds, open sores, etc., are clearly that they brought upon themselves (Deut. 28) when left to their own devises (idolatry, whoredoms, compromise with human devils, self-immolations, etc.,) as they had become as Sodom and Gomorrah.

Now as for 53:8 which states clearly this servant will be “cut off” from the land of the living, it must only be modern interpretation that somehow interprets these plain words to mean being cast out of the promise land, because this clearly means he is killed and Daniel later picks up on this when he having read the books speaks of a messiah who would be “cut off” (making reference to this phrase by Isaiah) just before another prince would come and destroy the Holy city causing the sacrifices and oblations to cease. IMO Daniel 9 rules out the later Rabbinically assumed possibilities of this being possibly Hezekiah OR least likely Akiva as only this Jesus, said to be Messiah by many Jewish people at the time (see the Archaeological work on gravesites by Sukenik and Baggatti), was “cut off from the land of the living” just before these events transpired in 70 A.D.!

For support of a Messianic interpretation I recommend, The Fifty-Third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, (Ktav Publishing House, New York, 1969) by Jewish scholar, Adolph Neubauer of the Bodleian Library (reader of Rabbinical Hebrew at Oxford) and Hebrew scholar R. S. Driver. But I want to point out what I consider and interesting witness.

In both the LXX, a Greek conceptual translation (which according to Jewish sources was created by 70 Rabbis) and Qumran’s Isaiah Scroll where long before the traditional pre-JPS Masoretic (though in full agreement) they ALL use only singular male pronouns for the servant contrasted with we, our, and my people,…also we know from History that Jerome’s final Vulgate OT (when in Jerusalem) also employed the best Hebrew manuscripts of his day, and he also used all singular male pronouns! So we seem to have a consistent trail of witness for the single male pronouns contrasted with Isaiah and his people (Israel)! The LXX (300 to 200 B.C.E.); the Isaiah Scroll (around 175 B.C.E copied from an earlier Hebrew text.); Jerome (400 C.E.) who made revisions based on the Hebrew of his day, and finally, the Masoretic (around 900 C.E.) itself .

In God’s word we find a principle. We are not to add to it or take away from it. We are not to vary to the left or the right. It must say what it says and if people err then so be it. Following this hermeneutic leads me to believe God is speaking here of a particular man (true Israel personified), and that He is referring to this first coming one (Daniel’s messiah), later called by the Rabbis “ben-Yosef”, but not because He was of the line of Joseph (though some would say so), but more because like Joseph, He would be mocked, beaten, sold out for the price of a slave, meant for dead, but in the end their savior! Now please note that even in the Talmud, though not believing this Messiah to be Y’shua , they always refer to possible other men as being this one. Therefore ,it was the mutually shared opinion of Israel’s ancient sages that this section speaks of a man and not a peoples.
 
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yonah_mishael

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Again, I appreciate the time that Paul has taken to construct his response to my introductory post. I find myself at the distinct disadvantage of having to write a rebuttal to both his introduction and his first rebuttal together in one post, which means trying to make the best of the space that I have been provided for this first of my responses and also trying to cover a lot of different points that my esteemed partner in this debate has raised before I move on. I will try to cover what I think are the most salient points of his argument thus far before presenting more on my own position. I would also like to mention the comments in the Peanut Gallery that I think are also important and need to be addressed, namely as regards my position on this chapter and my use of the first chapter of Isaiah to interpret and understand the fifty-third.

At this point, there have been essentially two criticisms of our debate that have appeared in the Peanut Gallery threads. The first is that we should not be using other chapters of the Bible, even of the book of Isaiah itself, to interpret the chapter in question. The second is that nothing novel should be expected from this debate and that neither of the presenters is all too likely to change his opinion. Both of these criticisms go to relevance: the first to the relevance of other passages in the Bible to this one, and the second to the relevance of a debate like this at all. Thus, I think I should take a minute to address these concerns before moving on to the things written by my debate opponent.

Isaiah 53 has been debated very heatedly throughout the history of Christian interaction with Jews. Jews have actually been tortured and killed on the basis of the Christian interpretation of this passage, which makes understanding this chapter properly an extremely important piece of Jewish-Christian interrelations. While it is true that a person has only to enter a few terms into Google to discover the traditional Jewish understanding of Isaiah 53 defended aptly, it is also a problem of human nature that most do not do the most basic research necessary to find out the opinions of groups other than their own. Putting these issues out in the open on Christian Forums will, I believe, enable us to come to a better understanding of each other’s positions – even if the presenters do not and will not change their opinions as a result of the debate. When two mature individuals engage in civil debate that does not result in personal attacks and insults, much can be gained by the opposition and disagreement.

I hardly think the other criticism is worth addressing, however, since it has always been the case that people have used the Bible to interpret itself. I would agree that bringing up the serpent in Genesis 3 or even the story of Isaiah’s commission in Isaiah 6 are not relevant to the identity of the servant in chapter 53, but certainly any passage that utilizes similar language, expression, terminology, word pictures, etc. is not only appropriate to use in interpretation – it would also be negligent of us not to employ such passages in our discussion of the text’s meaning. It is often the case that a single passage cannot be interpreted on its own but must be understood in relation to other texts that elucidate it and make its meaning clear, especially when we are dealing with metaphors and allegories, and I believe that this is obviously the case with Isaiah 53 when we realize what else is revealed about both Israel and the servant in the book of Isaiah. Thus, it is appropriate and reasonable to use other chapters in our discussion of this one, as we would do if we were discussing the interpretation of any other text in the Bible. There are even rabbinic hermeneutical principles regarding the use of similar language in another passage to draw out interpretations in a given text. This is standard interpretation, so I find it odd that this criticism has been leveled in the Peanut Gallery, but I figured I would comment on it before going on.

The first thing to which I’d like to respond from Paul’s presentation it is not position that the servant means Israel. The proposition of the debate is that the servant refers to the Messiah, and it is my position that it does not refer to the Messiah. I am taking the negative position on the debate. This does not commit me to any further interpretation of the passage. In order to uphold my position, I do not have to prove that the servant is Israel, nor must I devote myself to any other positive position necessarily. I would only have to demonstrate that any other interpretation is more reasonable than the idea that this refers to a suffering Messiah taking away the sins of the world – the position of Christianity over the past two millennia.

I agree with Paul that in our discussion of this text we should consult ancient translations. Paul mentioned the Talmud, the Septuagint, the Vulgate and the Dead Sea Scrolls in his first rebuttal, yet somehow failed to mention the Aramaic translation of this passage that is still used by Jews of the rabbinic tradition. We call this Aramaic version Targum Yonatan or that of Pseudo-Jonathan (since we don’t know who really did the translation). It seems that it is enough for Paul that Isaiah 53 employs the masculine singular pronoun in Hebrew, Greek and Latin to establish that this is talking about a single man, but we find something very different in the Targum. I have actually created a page to display the text of the Targum along with that of the Massoretic Text in a side-by-side presentation. This page shows the Hebrew of the MT, the Aramaic of the Targum, the King James translation of the MT and the Driver-Neubauer translation of the Aramaic.

One significant feature of the Targum is the use of masculine plural pronouns (“they, them, their”) in reference to the servant. The Targum interprets this Servant Song as being fulfilled at the time of the coming of the Messiah. It even calls the servant here “my servant the Messiah” or “my anointed servant,” which are both proper translations of the Aramaic phrase ʿaḇdî məšîḥāʾ (עבדי משיחא). However, the servant is not the one who suffers in the opinion of the Targum’s author. It is Israel who suffers. For example, look at the translation associated with 53.4:

Then for our sins he will pray, and our iniquities will for his sake be forgiven, although we were accounted stricken, smitten from before the LORD, and afflicted.​

Messiah is said to pray for people’s sins, not to suffer for them. Throughout the Targum, it is presented as if the Messiah would be great, but it was Israel that would suffer. This is a consistent feature of how the Targum understands this chapter. The Messiah does not suffer or die, but Israel suffers for their own sins and it is Messiah who delivers them – along with the rest of the world – from destruction.

Yet, it is my position that “the servant” here does not refer to the Messiah. It may be assumed, then, that I would reject the opinion of the Targum. In actuality, I do not reject the opinion of the Talmud. I understand this passage to speak within its own context, and that context contains the whole of chapter 52 along with chapter 54. Chapter 52 speaks of the call to Israel to get ready to leave exile. Chapter 53 speaks of the servant and the fact that this servant would be elevated – having suffered for the sins of the people. Chapter 54 calls for Israel to grow and expand its tents, to come back into its own land. The chapter does indeed have to do with redemption, and it is reasonable for the interpreter who wrote the Targum to insert the Messiah into that period – for the redemption does indeed contain the concept of the Messiah. However, it is a mistake to think that “the servant” in chapter 53 refers to the Messiah.

The use of the singular pronoun does not indicate that we are to think of a single person. After all, even the Ten Commandments are written using the singular pronoun in Hebrew, not the plural. For example, lōʾ tirṣaḥ (לא תרצח) – “thou shall not kill” (sg.) as opposed to “ye shall not kill” (pl.). Should we assume that this means that only one person is forbidden from killing? We find in Hebrew that singular pronoun is often used to speak of groups. In fact, the word “people” that refers to a people group is itself singular – ʿam (עם) – and any pronouns associated with it would also be masculine singular. The use of the plural ending for the preposition “to/for” in lāmô (למו) in verse 53.8 and the plural ending on “death” in mōṯā(y)v (מתיו) should indicate to us that it is speaking of more than one person included in the description of the “servant.”

I’m out of space for this post, but I will try to continue in the same direction and fill in the gaps in my future posts. I’m sorry for not getting to finish everything here.

Regards,
YM
 
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pshun2404

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To begin with I would like to give credence for the kind understanding expressed by my worthy opponent in this formal debate when he said:
“While it is true that a person has only to enter a few terms into Google to discover the traditional Jewish understanding of Isaiah 53 defended aptly, it is also a problem of human nature that most do not do the most basic research necessary to find out the opinions of groups other than their own. Putting these issues out in the open on Christian Forums will, I believe, enable us to come to a better understanding of each other’s positions – even if the presenters do not and will not change their opinions as a result of the debate. When two mature individuals engage in civil debate that does not result in personal attacks and insults, much can be gained by the opposition and disagreement.”

I would say well put Yonah, and may our most Holy mediator (blessed be His name) enrich us both by our endeavors.

You say “I do not have to prove that the servant is Israel, nor must I devote myself to any other positive position necessarily. I would only have to demonstrate that any other interpretation is more reasonable than the idea that this refers to a suffering Messiah taking away the sins of the world” to which I yield defending it is Messiah and you defending it is not.

But then bringing up Jonathan’s Targum you say, “One significant feature of the Targum is the use of masculine plural pronouns (“they, them, their”) in reference to the servant, However, the servant is not the one who suffers in the opinion of the Targum’s author. It is Israel who suffers. For example, look at the translation associated with 53.4: “Then for our sins he will pray, and our iniquities will for his sake be forgiven, although we were accounted stricken, smitten from before the LORD, and afflicted

You bring this up allegedly due to my presentation of the various Hebrew translators. and Jerome’s later correction according to the Hebrew of his time. But Jonathan’s Targum is NOT a translation it is a paraphrased interpretation. There is a huge difference! That would be like a Christian telling others that they should rely on The Good News for Modern Man as legitimately the New Covenant writings.

The point I was making (especially with the Isaiah Scroll actually being in pre-exhilic paleo-Hebrew) is that actual translations of the text always only seemed to implicate the subject/object distinction. Now I say that Jonathan does not translate correctly, but adds all sorts of words not in the text, and removes others that are there, so to give a post Yeshua opinion, but that is exactly in keeping with my last point that violating the LORD’s own revealed hermeneutic in order to make it say this does not lend credence to the accuracy of the position. He changes the word to fit the position, rather than letting the actual wording determine the position. Now back to the scriptures.

Now knowing there are many individuals who are called “servant” (Moses Exodus 4:10; Caleb Numbers 14:24; Joshua Joshua 5:14/Judges 2:8; Samson Judges 15:18; Samuel 1 Samuel 3:10; David 1 Samuel 23:10, 11, and so on) so here are some issues I have, if the word of God speaks the truth (which I know it does)…

Because Israel at this time (and Judah) according to the same author is separated from the LORD by her own sins, then Israel cannot possibly atone for the gentiles, nor does Isaiah 53 speak of this (even in the traditional pre-JPS Masoretic), and nor can they bring themselves back, or carry themselves on their own shoulders (though a metaphor, such logic would make the statement absurd).

How can sinful separated Israel (rejected by God) redeem herself? He is the Redeemer, whether or not He chooses a person (Genesis 3:15) to perform this in or through or if He Himself comes in human form to accomplish this when no man is worthy…He is the LORD, it is His prerogative. Who can say the Lord, who appeared unto Abraham, cannot do such a thing?

This Servant (from Isaiah 49:3 onward), though he is also called Israel, IMO is speaking of the human redeemer God foreknew (Genesis 3:15), through whom the LORD would bring the nation of Israel back. He is the arm of the Lord revealed or laid bare (the instrument of His power). As I read the plain wording of the text he is revealed but utterly rejected by men (not rejected by God) but Isaiah's people esteem/regard him smitten by God (that does not mean he was).

It is mankind, fallen and utterly gone their own way as said in verse 6 (we disregarding the plain word of God and doing what is right in our own eyes, deciding good and evil according to our own judgments, as gods unto ourselves – Genesis 3:5) whose iniquities are being atoned for here. The servant here was to be the lamb for the slaughter, to be a sin offering, for the people Isaiah is speaking to (minimally Judah), and as I see it, to make atonement for the faithful ‘Israel of God’, and for those gentiles also of faith that he was also being sent on behalf of (who like father Abraham also stagger not at the promise of God). Now you know the arm of the Lord is our redeemer, our protector, and in judgment (must I quote a bunch of scriptures). This “Servant” here is the arm of the LORD laid bare (Isaiah 52:10) before the eyes of all nations (the goyim also)...therefore it is the LORD’s arm being so treated and serving with our sins (Isaiah 43:24)…as I see it, whoever has rejected the arm of the LORD has poised themselves against the move of God in our midst (even though it was for us that He did this).

Another problem (IMO) I do not see Israel as a people referred to in the masculine, but in the feminine (for example, 51:18, 52:2 and 54:6). We see this in other prophets as well. So the 'he' here in Chapter 53 cannot refer to the people of Israel. Isaiah follows this use of the feminine sense when he describes other peoples, principalities, nations, and cities. He often associates the term “bethullah” when so speaking (Isaiah 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5)…so I see no masculine references to “the people of Israel” except when the LORD collectively calls them “Jacob.” Jeremiah does the same (Jeremiah 14:17; 18:13; 31:4, 21; see also Lamentations 1:15; 2:13). He also refers to peoples and nations and cities in the feminine. So this “ish” (which only means a man) acquainted with sorrows, cannot be ‘am Yisra’el, the people of Israel, for it is this “ish” (man) one who brings Jacob back (and it appears he does this through the gentiles).

Plus, the passage plainly indicates that this Servant would be rejected by Isaiah’s people (the Judah-ites) not the gentiles. Isaiah says “WE” did esteem him stricken (vs. 8)…the people he was writing to. So do these people reject themselves? Have they ever rejected themselves? But who that claims to be this servant, has the people of Isaiah rejected? Hmmm?

Now granted I am an odd one among the followers of Yeshua, because I can see both interpretations as being applicable in their proper sense. I have no doubt that Israel as a people also suffered much unjustly (at least the righteous among them), and they remain as an enigma (after many attempts at genocide) to many gentiles (especially to those who do not seek the God of Abraham), but not to me, for I KNOW God has a purpose and intent in even all that we see now unfolding historically before our very eyes.

But even you must admit that in the Targum Isaiah, much must be added and taken away to make the text say this (examine your own evidence you produced). Paraphrases are fine as a reflection of a doctrinal position or tradition, but they are not the Holy Scriptures! Isaiah speaking to his people (the people of Judah) says “We all have gone astray, but the LORD has laid on him (a clear distinction) the iniquity of us all.” Looking back, the Hebrew, as it was originally (like in the Isaiah Scroll), and the translation of the actual words into the original Masoretic, are almost identical (and yet from over 1000 years earlier), and was preserved meticulously (a real credit to the Jewish people for which I give thanks to the Lord).

Shabbat Shalom

Paul
 
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yonah_mishael

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I am still under obligation at this point, in the second of my rebuttal rounds, to address some of the information in Paul’s first rebuttal that I was not able to get to, but I think things should move more smoothly from this point on in terms of my use of space. I will try not to comment on information from the Peanut Gallery in my rebuttals, though I may address some of it in my conclusion post at the end of the debate if anything is especially calling for commentary. I cannot devote so much space to dealing with the Peanut Gallery, which results in not having enough for the debate itself. Observers in those threads will pardon me for that decision.

It remains incumbent upon me to comment on the following from Paul’s earlier contributions to this debate: his understanding of Isaiah 48.16 and the switch in person within the verse, the use of Isaiah 53 in rabbinic sources as a reference to the Messiah, the use of the title “my servant” to refer to Israel in the book of Israel and how it relates to both Isaiah himself and the people more roughly. I will attempt to deal with these several points before I move on to treating Paul’s second rebuttal post.

Isaiah 48.16 reads this way in the NIV:

“Come near me and listen to this:
“From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there.”
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
endowed with his Spirit.​

Paul has commented that this verse is “mysterious,” but I hardly see how when it is read correctly. In his reading of this verse, there would be no separation of speakers (marked by quotation marks in the NIV). It is indeed Yahweh that is said to be speaking as the verse opens. The quotation mark that opens the verse is a continuation of the previous speech that opened in the middle of verse six. It is Yahweh speaking until his speech is interrupted by Isaiah himself. The prophet begins to speak himself in the middle of verse 16, telling us that Yahweh had sent him as a prophet endowed with the spirit of prophecy. There is no mystery here, unless we read a text without quotation marks and do not discern where one speaker begins and another ends his words. The mystery disappears when the text is properly translated with quotation marks.

It is certainly true, also, that Isaiah 53 appears in some rabbinic texts with messianic significance (most notably the discussion of the name of the Messiah that appears in tractate Sanhedrin of the Babylonian Talmud).

What is his [the Messiah’s] name? – The school of R. Shilah said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh came [Gen. 49.10]. The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever: e’er the sun was, his name is Yinnon [Ps. 72.17]. The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give Haninah [Jer. 16.13]. Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem [‘the comforter’], that would relieve my soul, is far [Lam. 1.16]. The Rabbis said: His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted [Isa. 53.4]. (Sanhedrin 98b, Soncino English Babylonian Talmud)​

What we find is that each group assigned a name to the Messiah that was close to the name of their teacher. Shilah → Shiloh; Yannai → Yinnon; Haninah → Haninah; Menahem → Menahem; Rabbis (poor scholars) → ‘the Leper Scholar.’ Once they had assigned a name to their version of the Messiah – and the real lesson here is that no one knows the name of the Messiah – each group sought out a verse from the Bible to “prove” that their guess was right. None of the verses quoted here, with the possible exception of the Shiloh verse, are really messianic if we look at their context. “The Rabbis” in this passage of the Talmud used Isaiah 53.4 in the same way that the others used Lamentations 1.16 to show that the Messiah would be called Menahem, for example. Should we understand this verse messianically?

This is why I weep
and my eyes overflow with tears.
No one is near to comfort me,
no one to restore my spirit.
My children are destitute
because the enemy has prevailed.​

The author is complaining of his sorrow at the fact that Israel was overrun by its enemies, and he complained that there was no one nearby who could comfort him or make him feel better. The school of Menahem interpreted this single line in the verse as if it applied to the Messiah. They would not have interpreted the entire passage as a reference to the Messiah – they were just taking advantage of this one verse. And this is the same thing that “the Rabbis” were doing with their identification of the Messiah as the Leper Scholar. They essentially felt that they were suffering for the people and were a byword among the sinners. They were seeing themselves in Isaiah 53.4 and applied the verse (not the whole chapter) to the Messiah in an attempt to identify the Messiah with themselves in the same way that all the other groups had done. They did not understand Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy, even if they lifted verses from their context at times in reference to the Messiah. These same verses were used in reference to Israel within the Zohar and other Jewish texts.

As to the identification of “my servant” in the songs of Isaiah, I would have to agree with Paul that there is a conflation between the prophet himself – as the one who was appointed to bring Israel back to Yahweh – and the remnant of Israel. Both were thought of as the servant of Yahweh and at least in chapter 48 there is strong conflation between the two. One thing that my opponent has not seemed to acknowledge, however, is that there is a distinction at every point between the righteous of Israel and those who had sinned. Whereas we might interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to the people of Israel, we must always remember that it is the righteous among the people who suffer because of the sins of the unrighteous among the people. Then again, I truly think the servant in this passage needs to be interpreted not only as the righteous but as the land itself, which had been abased and was promised to be raised up in the last days (as in Isaiah 2.2: “In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.” [NIV]). This is in parallel to the statement that the servant would be raised up and exalted (Isaiah 52.13).

In his latest contribution to this debate, my esteemed opponent has continued in this opinion of my position, which is a sort of straw man of my real position. We are dealing here with two separate groups within Israel: (1) those who sinned and (2) those who did not. It is important to maintain the concept of the righteous remnant of Israel. It was the righteous who were suffering on behalf of those who deserved to suffer. It always seems to be the case that those who do what is right suffer more than those who do wrong – and this principle is what we are looking at here. The remnant were cut off from the land along with the unrighteous, and that suffering was unjust and undeserved – and it was vicarious.

I’m not saying that the Targum is a literal translation. No one would read it that way. However, it is indicative of the rabbinic view of how the passage should be understood in that it places the passage at the time of the redemption, interprets it in terms of the suffering of the righteous among Israel for the sake of those who were actually worthy of punishment and offers a more complete view of how the passage is generally interpreted by the majority of Jews. It is clear that the Targum actually inserts the concept of Messiah into this passage where it does not exist, but the Christians do that as well. The difference is that the Targum brings a stark division between what it inserts into the text (the Messiah) and the object of suffering and ridicule (righteous Israel).

I would like to give a more specific rundown of the text as I interpret it to refer both to the land of Israel and to the righteous who suffered for the sake of the guilty, but I have again run out of space for this post. I will try to dedicate space to this in my next rebuttal, hopefully utilizing very little of my space by creating images that can be inserted into the post rather than text that fills up the word count.

Thank you and best of luck for your next rebuttal.

YM

Correction: Thanks to pat34lee on Christian Forums for pointing out an error in my first rebuttal by private message. Targum Yonatan (Jonathan) is not the same as Pseudo-Jonathan, which is a Targum covering the Torah and is properly known as Targum Yerushalmi (Jerusalem). Targum Yonatan only covers the Prophets (נביאים) and Writings (כתובים).
 
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pshun2404

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Yonah, you are not under any obligation…go where you will…

Before I reply this time, I want my CF readers and the Hebrew Cafe to understand that regardless of my previous post, I am not rejecting the witness of the Targum Isaiah. I actually have great respect for all the Targums as a powerful witness as to how at least one group, if not all, of the Jewish Rabbis from the 1st and 2nd centuries saw the culminated understanding of their view at this time. I accept all the comments of the early commentators (even if I may disagree on some issues) as valuable to my understanding of the traditions and interpretations regarding His revealed written word to us. They definitely should in no wise simply be dismissed by Christian students of the Bible.

In like manner, I believe it is equally important for the Christians to understand their original doctrines that they should read the earliest Church writers as these are the people taught their understanding by those men, that we call Apostles, discipled and appointed to positions of leadership. Again their commentary and interpretations are to me NOT to be considered Holy scripture (though they quote from it), nor equal in authority, nor the only possible understanding is some cases. But nonetheless they stand as a powerful witness of an accepted understanding in that day. Now then, you said…

We find in Hebrew that singular pronoun is often used to speak of groups.

To which I say yes…but I cannot say “often”, especially when it is used in a continuous comparative narrative between an individual and a group.

In fact, the word “people” that refers to a people group is itself singular – ʿam (עם) – and any pronouns associated with it would also be masculine singular.

I understand…in English, we sometimes use “a people” in the same sense, but again, in this section it appears to me that Isaiah’s people (the we, us, our, who are the people of Judah) are being contrasted with the he, him, etc…and though you admit even the Targum sees a contrast, I feel the Targum changes the very same usage to fit its own understanding.

The use of the plural ending for the preposition “to/for” in lāmô(למו) in verse 53.8 and the plural ending on “death” in mōṯā(y)v (מתיו) should indicate to us that it is speaking of more than one person included in the description of the “servant.”

Here I disagree. Even though I do not speak Hebrew, I see it as not necessarily so. I see this application being used by Isaiah himself as “it” (a sg.) not “them” (a pl.) in Isaiah 44:15, when the word is associated with an “ish” (a man). That appears to me to be the same instance in chapter 53!

Plus “deaths” is rendered “death” in the English translation of the Isaiah scroll, and the pre-JPS Masoretic, when Jewish scholars translate these into English, thus implying a usage, in context, as an “intensive plural” which for me means to intensify the nature of this death, that his would be a horrific death. (I see something similar when adjectives are used in repetition to describe an extreme, like when it is said that the LORD is Holy, Holy, Holy…I see this as His being so wholly other, so set apart, that there is no comprehensible comparison).

Now admittedly I may be incorrect on this next example, but not remembering the exact passage (I believe it is in Ezekiel), I saw this when one goes down into “the” pit (the English says “pit” but meaning in Hebrew a pit of all pits, the pit of destruction, one for which there is no comparison). I think it is in the plural (please correct me if not understood correctly) and feminine…which may simply have been used as a sort of hyperbole…but again you can correct me on this point, as I realize I could be wrong, but that’s the sense I get from the usage here. Besides doesn’t even the new JPS version see nego’lamo as the servant receiving blows or “a stroke” for them? Doesn’t this implicate that “vicarious flavor”, as you called it, applying to the servant yet not Isaiah’s people with whom he is contrasted?

Paul has commented that this verse (Isaiah 48:6) is “mysterious,” but I hardly see how when it is read correctly. In his reading of this verse, there would be no separation of speakers (marked by quotation marks in the NIV). It is indeed Yahweh that is said to be speaking as the verse opens. The quotation mark that opens the verse is a continuation of the previous speech that opened in the middle of verse six. It is Yahweh speaking until his speech is interrupted by Isaiah himself…The prophet begins to speak himself in the middle of verse 16, telling us that Yahweh had sent him as a prophet endowed with the spirit of prophecy.

Yes the NIV translators eisegesis (reading into) on this text is so obvious…that is one of the reasons I do not rely on their interpretation. They take away words (YHVH-Tsaba) in the text, and add words (Sovereign, which carries special meaning for these reformed scholars), and then they add quotation marks to make it say what they think the text to say, which are not in the Hebrew or Greek text. Why? Because it fits their notion. They take all sorts of add to and take away liberties and even change words all over the Tanakh and in the New Covenant writings.

Even the Orthodox Jewish Bible reads “Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken baseter (in secret) merosh (from the first); from the time that it takes place, there am I; and now Adonoi Hashem, and His Ruach [Hakodesh], hath sent Me” [Moshiach, the Eved Hashem; see Isaiah 42:1] note the capital M in Me…it is Messiah! These Jewish translators get it, how come all these Evangelical scholars (and I can’t believe you) do not?

They do almost the same with Zechariah 2:10, 11 which in the Masoretic reads:

2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, says the LORD (Yah’hoveh). 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.

Now a plain rendering of this text shows it is the LORD who would come and dwell in the midst of them so this cannot be the prophet in verse 11 because he already dwells with them (besides YHVH saying it is He who will dwell in the midst of them)…no, sorry, I believe this is the Word (the Memra/Logos)…like when YHVH in the tent of Abraham sends forth the two angels to rain down fire and brimstone from YHVH in heaven. The YHVH in the tent is the Word of the LORD (a hypostasis of YHVH).

Now we can add to and take away from, and then add some quotes here as well, making it say YHVH is to come and dwell, and then the prophet is to come and dwell where he already dwells, but to me this is absurd. Why not just believe the word of God? Oh well, it was part of another point so you can have last say on this one so we can move on. And thanks, I believe Shiloh is this Messiah also (to whom the gentiles shall gather) though not saying you do (but this would relate to our discussion, this Servant being a light unto the gentiles).

But let me see if I have grasped your position. Are you saying this Servant IS Messiah, but it is your understanding that it is Israel/servant who suffers in this chapter, and that the Messiah/Servant is being said to deliver, restore, or rescue them at some later point?
 
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yonah_mishael

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When I speak of obligation in a rebuttal it has to do with what I feel is my responsibility in the discussion. That is to say, I have the responsibility as partner in a debate to actually answer my opponent’s claims and objections. If I felt no such obligation, then I would simply write up all of my rebuttals ahead of time without taking any thought to what he might write in his own arguments – since the most important thing to me would be to make sure that my own thoughts find expression. This is not the case. If you make a claim, I think that it is certainly important for your opponent to answer that claim and take it into consideration when he makes his next argument. This is the obligation of formal debate of which I was speaking when I said that I was obligated to answer a few specific things.

There is one other claim that I did not engage from Paul’s previous rebuttal, and this is the issue of the personal pronoun being feminine (as if it referred to ʾéreṣ ארץ “land” or məḏînâ מדינה “state,” which are both feminine in Hebrew). It is natural to refer to nations as feminine in Hebrew, just as cities are referred to as feminine, as well as body parts. These things are regularly referred to with feminine pronouns. So, as long as an author is thinking of the country of Israel, it would naturally be referred to in the feminine – which is how we find it in several contexts in Isaiah and other prophets, such as when Yahweh speaks about Israel as a sister of Sodom and Samaria (Ezekiel 16). In fact, we find Israel often referred to in the feminine, but this is certainly not the case exclusively.

When Israel is referred to as either a “son” or a “servant” (as opposed to referring to it as a country or state), the masculine pronoun is most naturally used. In Isaiah 53, we have a word picture of idealized Israel (the remnant) being presented as a servant, and it is completely natural that the masculine pronoun would be used to refer to this servant throughout the passage. Another example is Hosea 11.1-2 (NIV):

When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.​

Notice how the pronoun “him” is used to refer to Israel when referred to either as “son” or “child” (in this case náʿar נער “lad”). Notice also the immediate switch to the natural gender of the people in verse 2 – “they were called” and “they went away” rather than “he was called” and “he went away.” The fact that we are talking about Israel does not mean that we should expect a switch to feminine pronouns. Not every chapter or song that speaks of Israel will use the feminine.

As per motav “his deaths,” there was a recent discussion on B-Hebrew regarding the significance of the plural in another instance. This is the verse in question:

If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. (Exodus 21.22 NIV)​

The Hebrew phrase for “she gives birth prematurely” is weyāṣəʾû yəlāḏéhā וְיָצְא֣וּ יְלָדֶ֔יהָ (ve-yats’u yeladéha), which literally means “and her children came out.” If she is pregnant, it is safe to assume that she is only having one child – twins are an anomaly. So, why would the verse use the plural? The answer is given that it refers to whatever children she might have. Some people argued that it meant that she would not be able to have children after that, as if the entire ability to have children was lost to her, but that seems unreasonable since the text says that there was no “serious injury,” and the state of barrenness that would result is certainly serious to our own culture but especially to the culture in which such a law was being given.

What, then, could be the significance of the text reading “his deaths” (mōṯā(y)w מתיו [motav]) rather than “his death” (môṯô מותו [moto]) in Isaiah 53.9? Paul has suggested that we understand it in an “intensive” sense, but I cannot see this really being supported. Is “death” ever used anywhere else in such an intensive sense? What justification could there be for using a plural here when a singular would have done just fine? The DSS has an odd reading bwmtw בומתו. If it were singular for “in his death,” we would expect bmwtw במותו (be-moto) rather than this odd form bwmtw מומתו, which has no meaning as it appears. I don’t think that pulling the DSS in would add any weight to someone’s argument in this case because of the level of ambiguity in the text. It would first be necessary to discuss what this form could possibly be before simply saying that it agrees with your position. The English translation that someone offers, having smoothed over the difficulties first, is not nearly as important as looking at the form of language present in the scroll itself. In this case, the translator has gone with the common English understanding of the text and is ignoring its difficulties altogether.

As per the translation of the “Orthodox Jewish Bible,” it should be noted that this is a Messianic publication and the appearance of “Me” (with the capital) would be expected there. It is in Messianic interests to read Yeshua into that verse (Isaiah 48.6). It is called “Orthodox Jewish Bible,” but it was not written by an Orthodox Jew and is certainly not used by Orthodox Jews as any sort of Bible at all. In fact, reading this verse as if Yahweh were still speaking (essentially, “Yahweh I has sent Me [Yahweh II]”) is the same as reading the last verse of Isaiah 53 as if it were still the prophet speaking: “And I [Isaiah] will divide him a portion…” That is certainly a mistake. The speaker in the last verse of this song shifts, and it is suddenly Yahweh himself proclaiming the reward that he will give to his faithful servant.

At this time, I think that I’ve answered everything that is essential from Paul’s post. I will now address some of my key objections to this passage being understood as a reference to Yeshua, if not to the Messiah in general.

What they were not told… what they have not heard… (Isaiah 52.15). With this verse, we see kings being shocked and putting their hands over their mouths in dismay. Suddenly, something has happened that they did not expect and that they would never have believed. The fact is, the entire world knows the story of the passion narrative. No one will be shocked to hear it. And the only records we do hear of kings hearing of the gospel for the first time did not result in anything like this. For example, the story of Agrippa’s first hearing of the gospel recorded in Acts 26 results in nothing simple rejection. We read about rulers thinking the gospel is foolish, we hear of them calling it superstitious (as is the case with Marcus Aurelius), we find them seeking to put a stop to the practice of Christianity (as in the time of Trajan), but we never find an instance in which the kings who heard the gospel respond with shock at the surprising nature of the gospel story.

Contrast this with Israel, who has undergone trial after trial. No one would have believed that Israel could survive the centuries, and when Israel was re-established as a state in 1948 it was the amazement of many world leaders. Who would believe that Israel would live again? “Like a root out of dry ground,” indeed! No one thought that this land in which I live could ever produce again. It was arid and unworkable, and the idea that the people could be regathered to form a state was unimaginable. Yet, it has happened, and the prophecies of the Tanach would have us believe that even greater things than these will happen with this people that has survived time after time.

He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him… (Isaiah 53.2). Yet, Yeshua had crowds following him, proclaiming that he was a teacher of God. He was full of charisma and had a most attracting personality. We know nothing about his appearance, but there is nothing to tell us that he was particularly appalling to look upon.

Contrast this with Israel, who has been despised among the nations and mistreated at every step since the exile. People have accused Jews of physical deformity, of moral perversity, of spiritual death. No one would have looked to Israel with any regard, and that’s how it was for generations before the Jewish people began to come back together and rally politically.

He was despised and rejected by mankind… (Isaiah 53.3). The story of Yeshua had to undergo perhaps two generations (from the beginning of the gospel story in around 35 CE until it became one of the most common religions of the people around the year 100) before it took root. Yeshua may have been rejected by the Jewish people as the Messiah, but he certainly was not rejected by mankind generally. The gospel became popular quite quickly in terms of the spread of a new religion, and the story of Yeshua – and how people could relate to the idea of a suffering god dying for them – was almost immediately embraced by the masses.

Again, contrast this with the Jewish people who have been despised and rejected by mankind from ages past. I do not feel that I need to extrapolate much on this point to indicate that it is true.

Familiar with pain… (Isaiah 53.3). The word “pain” here seems to have been inserted by the NIV translators to make the text even more clearly favor the Yeshua interpretation. The Hebrew word is ḥṓlî חֹלִי (choli), which means “sickness” and not “pain.” The phrase used here, “familiar with sickness,” can hardly describe Yeshua. Search the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament as thoroughly as you wish, yet you will not find a single statement indicating that Yeshua was ever ill or that he underwent sickness of any kind. If someone was not himself sick, then he cannot be said to be familiar with sickness – and, hence, the change in the NIV of “sickness” to “pain,” which is far more readily associated with the passion story.

The connection of sickness to the servant is relevant when we remember the statement in Isaiah 1.5, in which we find: “your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted.” The word “injured” in the NIV here is the same word in the Hebrew (choli). In fact, the following verse uses several words that could be lifted directly out of Isaiah 53: wound (petsa), bruise (chavurah – cp. Isaiah 53.5 “and by his stripes” u-va-chavurato), fresh welt (makah triyah – cp. Isaiah 53.4 “smitten of God” mukeh elohim). The entire passage seems to be connected in every major sense to Isaiah 53, in which Israel has been beaten and rejected by mankind – and yet would rise again from the ashes of destruction.

He will see his offspring and prolong his days… (Isaiah 53.10). Yeshua had no offspring, and he lived for only 33 years (if the stories be believed). That is hardly a prolonged life. The word zera is what is used of offspring, and that is never used to refer to “spiritual children” (so-to-speak). This far more easily refers to Israel, who would have been cut off had God not allowed them to have a continuance of offspring and future generations. Because of their suffering, the righteous among Israel perpetually prayed for the people, for the return to the land, for the deliverance and the coming of the Messiah. The life of Israel has indeed been prolonged, whereas people thought that Israel would be wiped out.

By his knowledge… (Isaiah 53.11). The claim in the Christian Bible is that Yeshua justifies believers by his blood, not by his knowledge. This is significant. Jews have always stressed the importance of study and Torah learning. And it is in knowledge of the Torah that Jews have put their trust for justification and for improving the moral state of the world. Israel justifies the world through his knowledge.

[He] made intercession for the transgressors… (Isaiah 53.12). It was not Yeshua’s prayers for sinners that accomplished anything according to the gospel message. It was his sacrifice that brought about redemption. On the other hand, the servant here is seen making intercessory prayer for the people who had sinned. This servant is Israel, who has continued to pray fervently for the people (and, indeed, the world) to return to God and to do what is right.

These are but a few of the objections that I have to the interpretation of Yeshua as the servant in this passage. I have not commented on some of the great motifs of Isaiah’s poetry/prophecy in relation to the elevation of Israel in the end times and how it is to Israel that all the nations will flow for teaching and for, indeed, redemption. This will be brought up in later posts. For now, I hope this has shown some of why I reject the Yeshua interpretation.

Looking forward to further interaction.

YM

Post-scriptum: I do apologize for the delay in making this post. I have been flying around a lot this week, but I found time to work it in tonight. I am still two days within the week-long deadline, but I know that it is problematic having to wait so long for a reply. I will try to be more time conscious in the future.
 
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pshun2404

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Thank you for explaining “obligation”, I also have each time tried to address a “few specific things”. I thought you were feeling obligated to address each nuance which is not possible in a limited setting such as this. So let me likewise respond…

Feminine usage: I am aware it is not exclusive but what I said was used “almost exclusively” this way in Isaiah. Your Ezekiel 16 cross reference is actually such a case. Ezekiel reveals the reasons for Israel’s need of the redeemer. In verse 2 we see he is speaking of and to the Jewish people, the continuous blessings He bestowed follow, then 15 onward the rejection which grieves, i.e., the abominations and even the compromising (vs. 20) and finally the judgment justly due (vs 38). But God IS faithful (Hallelujah!) and so will remember His covenant, honored by the remnant, but in time (according to Isaiah) He will give His servant to be a new covenant for Israel and for the gentiles.

I will not argue regarding the how or why all the Jewish translators chose to interpret “death” as they have translated into Greek or English, but they did (not the Christians). But I must point out, that either it was their justifiable and learned opinion (with whom your argument should be) or else they were intentionally being deceptive (which I do not believe). And I definitely disagree that had they expressed your interpretation (allegedly causing confusion) that being honest ever muddles difficulties but solves them (this is one of my reasons for questioning the use of the NIV). To intentionally add to and take away from to produce one view in fact causes unnecessary debate.

As to your next point, NO kings or nations were shocked by what Israel went through by the diaspora until modern times, but the effect of the Yeshua events (as you pointed out) rippled throughout the entire world, eventually destroying the Roman Empire. These events and their subsequent effect has had both incredible and historically validated effects on kingdoms and individuals, politically, ethically, and sociologically. His life has literally changed the Western world (and much of the Eastern). The people of Israel’s continuous rejection of God, and His plainly spoken word, over and over (as the Tanakh is my witness, just look at Kings and Chronicles, and all of the Prophets), rejecting the instructions of our LORD and resisting the move of God in their midst, has effected themselves (save for the example it provided we who have accepted the servant, who came to atone for all our sins, yours and mine). Which is marvelous, at least in my eyes…not discounting the wonderful restoration (for as yet His future purpose) since 1948, which I and many followers of Yeshua eagerly anticipate.

As for your comment on Isaiah 53:3, I agree the eisegesis of the NIV corrupts, only I do want to re-emphasize my earlier point, that because this is an atonement (a sin offering) the sickness and diseases mentioned (to which God Himself is very familiar) are spiritual in nature…it is these succinctly expounded in Chapter 53 that this atonement heals. And Yeshua’s works of wonder (as the son given) whereby the physical diseases of individuals are healed were only indicative of the signs that would point to who he was. This idea of him himself having to have had a life of sickness and disease is an injection to falsify and nothing else. It (like the NIV examples) is more eisegesis.

53:12? Intercessory “prayer”? Though he of course did this, it was a spiritual intercession as a mediatorial instrument between God and man that the prophet addresses. Prayer is nowhere mentioned here…this is an “add to” so the desired meaning will shape the text, instead of the text shaping the meaning.

Also, you said “the real lesson here is that no one knows the name of the Messiah”, but I believe you should have said “none of these Rabbis knew the actual name”, as I believe we now do. What we do get in Isaiah is a lot about Messiah’s shem (sometimes erroneously translated name into English)….for undoubtedly Messaih is a child born (Micah 5:2,3), but he is also a son given, the root and offshoot of Jesse, upon whom the LORD’s final and everlasting government will rest (1 Chronicles 17:11-13; Isaiah 9:6.7). So because I see our section as contrasting an “ish”, with others, I believe all this describes our redeemer, promised since Genesis to bruise the head of Belial so that we could be saved as opposed to condemned. So Yah’s yeshuah hence Yeshua (Y’shua) seems a very appropriate name to me.

“As to the identification of “my servant”… I would have to agree with Paul that there is a conflation between the prophet himself – as the one who was appointed to bring Israel back to Yahweh – and the remnant of Israel.”

Why did you find it convenient to put words in my mouth as you do with the text? I see nothing in our text that suggests the prophet (who identifies with the US/OUR, calling Israel his PEOPLE) is the one who brings Jacob back (and in fact dis not but himself was killed for the truth), but rather this servant is given to be a light unto the gentiles…the ensign of the people…(through them and upon their shoulders shall the lost sheep be brought home)…the Servant here, bruised the head of the serpent and being also God’s shepherd King (Jeremiah 49:19; Ezekiel 34:23) he is the one who does this. Neither can this passage be construed to imply that Israel brings itself back (that is not logical). So I did not say anything more than the prophet and Israel is one potential recipient of this Servant’s blessing!

… it is the righteous among the people who suffer because of the sins of the unrighteous among the people.


Yes, the righteous do suffer AS A RESULT OF the sins of the unfaithful, but surely not FOR the sins of the unfaithful (as if a trespass or sin offering). My family suffered because of the sinfulness of my father, not in place of his due recompense. My family was not suffering IN HIS PLACE to be an atonement (see how foolish this sounds when put in a correlative scenario?). The affliction and death of this Servant pleases or satisfies the LORD….not that the LORD was happy with it, but that through it the curse of the law against sin (even those of the righteous, the soul that sins must die) was covered, because of this lamb’s blood. Substitutionary atonement is the LORD’s design. First a lamb for each man, then a lamb for each household, then a lamb for the sins of the nation, and finally a lamb for sins of the world, but always the shedding of blood atones. So yes the suffering of the righteous is unwarranted, but it is not vicarious. It is said, “He shall intercede for many sins, and the rebellious, for his sake will be forgiven”

So the Rabbis say, "What is the cause of the mourning (Zechariah 12:10)? … the cause is the slaying of Messiah, son of Joseph, for as it is written, ‘And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only son.’" -Babylonian Talmud, Sukkah 52a (parentheses mine)

Now many Rabbis have claimed this idea of a “substitutionary atonement” is a Christian interpretation, but one only need read the Tanakh to see that accusation is false (false accusation is a sin). It was/is the LORD’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes.

53:7 As to his making no complaint…

Yeshua did not make complaint about his oppression/affliction/suffering (in fact he declared it his purpose and intent before it happened) and did not protest it even unto death….so very much unlike Israel (who I do not blame for protesting, for they are human and have indeed been mistreated) who has always protested their oppression and affliction (which the word says was sadly their own doing)

53:8 …taken from prison and judgment… cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

This servant (never Israel though maybe individuals here or there) was judged and imprisoned, and taken from prison and killed….(for the transgression of my people). Israel was never cut off from the land of the living for Israel (you must add to and take away to make it say this), but continued to live (though scattered again). If this servant were Israel, then Israel now. is not the Lord’s Israel. They saw no need for this redemption, believing themselves to be “the righteous.”

The Covenant at Horeb was an If/Then covenant (read Deuteronomy 28), the purpose of this servant was to absolve the curse, because no one can maintain it all. All people (the first couple being the parents of us all) needed a savior, but modern Israel has changed those words as well.
 
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yonah_mishael

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I don’t find that it will be very useful to go back and forth about the use of masculine or feminine pronouns. We know that both masculine and feminine forms are used with reference to Israel, and even if this were the longest passage in the Bible that used masculine pronouns to refer to Israel, it would not be exceptional in any real way. It turns out to be a useless argument to pursue, since all it will establish is that there are many passages that use feminine forms to refer to Israel while there are many other passages that use masculine forms to do the same thing – and that brings us to no arguable point. Therefore, I will not push that discussion any further, unless we should need evidence that masculine forms can be used for prolonged reference to Israel, in which case I will thumb through the Psalms and locate some passages to put the objection to rest.

Nor do I think it is really worth our time to debate the relative value of translations. I use English translations of the Bible as tools for communication. For me, though, the Bible is written in Hebrew and I read it only in Hebrew. It does not really matter to me what the NIV says over against the KJV or the RSV. I simply do not depend on these translations for understanding the text. I use them for the sake of the readers of my own writing, since quoting the Hebrew text and commenting on it directly is not as useful for those observing the debate as quoting a familiar translation of the text. This brings to mind Paul’s statement: “Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air” (1 Corinthians 14.9 NIV). The words that I write must be intelligible to those who read, thus I will not write in Hebrew or quote the verses in Hebrew or insist that my readers understand Hebrew. I will use the Hebrew where I must to bring in corrections to the English, but my argument will ever need to be based on the English text – and I find that the NIV uses clear expression when the King James is obscure.

As per our understanding the text, the kings in the passage are not expressing their shock at the abuse of the servant. That much was already known. This servant was abused and no one thought he was worthy of any notice whatsoever. The shock that they experience is as a result of the elevation of the servant. They had never heard of such a change in stature – that an abused, sickly, frail, deformed servant should suddenly be raised up and become so great and important. This is the source of their surprise. The point is not that the kings would be surprised as the servant suffered, but rather they would be in utter dismay when they behold the change of state that the servant underwent – which places this prophecy’s fulfillment at the end of the age with the elevation of Israel, which is the context of the entire prophecy when read together with the entirety of chapter 52 and along with chapter 54.

I cannot agree that familiar with sickness simply means that he healed diseases. It would be within the powers of any miracle worker to heal the sick, were such powers truly real. However, the phrase “familiar with sickness” means that sickness was common in his life, that he suffered sickness and disease. We are looking here at a diseased and sickly individual, not someone who healed diseases. The observer in the Servant Song looks at this sick person who had been suffering, and he was amazed that he himself had not gone through the same suffering – that the one suffering should not justly have had to suffer – that the one who was observing should have been the one who was suffering. This sick servant had bruises and open sores, signs of disease. It is troublesome that Christianity has taken these symptoms of harsh illness and transformed them into the results of a beating. The verse says that people thought that he was “smitten of God,” which means that God had struck him with a plague. It doesn’t mean that he simply had magic powers that could heal diseases in other people. This is an unequal treatment of the text.

My opponent says that I added to the text by mentioning intercessory prayer in connection to Isaiah 53.12, but I have to ask what else this could mean:

… [he] made intercession for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53.12 NIV)​

He made intercession without praying? I would have to have that explained to me. I cannot answer the charge of eisegesis (laid twice in the last rebuttal) with anything but surprise. I have not eisegeted at all. Perhaps my opponent is confused between the concepts of eisegesis (imputing meaning into a text that does not exist) and hermeneutics (principles of interpretation whereby meaning is brought out [exegeted] from a text based on what is there). I have not transgressed in my reading of the text. Rather, it is eisegesis to bring the concept of the bruising of the serpent’s head into the discussion of the Servant Song. These two things are unrelated. It is simply based on the fact that Christians have interpreted both the curse in Genesis and the song of this suffering servant as references to Yeshua. Had they not been interpreted this way, no one would have thought to connect them.

I find it also a bit intriguing that my opponent would bring up the difference between “as a result of” and “for,” since this is generally an argument introduced on the side of the counter-missionary (he who opposes the arguments of missionaries) rather than on the side of the missionary (he who would seek to convert Jews by argumentation to Christian faith). It is true that the servant suffered as a result of the misdeeds of those who had served other gods and performed all manner of abomination (according to the dictates of the Torah). I would not be opposed to that concept at all. It’s what the text says! However, there is more to this than just the word “for.” There is another verse that shows substitutionary suffering here:

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted. (Isaiah 53.4 NIV)​

If we were limited to verse 5, then I would agree with the counter-missionaries and, indeed, with my interlocutor in this debate. However, we have this verse that precedes that, and it says that he was bearing the pain and suffering of others – in this case, the observer who is making the comments about the servant’s suffering and elevation. This is more than suffering as the result of someone else’s actions. This is suffering in place of someone else. That is, Israel underwent exile and expulsion as the result of the people’s idolatry, but it was also unjust for the righteous remnant to have to suffer in this way (as even with regard to Sodom, we are told that God stated he would not destroy the city for the sake of ten righteous people who might be found there – it is contrary to the will of God to destroy the righteous along with the wicked or to allow the suffering of the righteous along with those who actually deserve it).

My opponent has stated that it was a fulfillment of prophecy that Yeshua made no complaint as he suffered, yet this can be said about many people in the history of the world. In fact, there was a video posted to Google+ yesterday that showed the execution of a young man in an Arab country on the charge of apostasy. It was said that he rejected Islam and deserved to die. This could mean that he converted to Christianity, that he renounced belief in Allah, that he simply stated that he didn’t believe in the Qur’an, but whatever it meant, it was determined that he deserved to die. I was shocked as his bravery as he simply took their orders. He calmly walked where they told him to walk. He knelt where they told him to kneel. He looked forward with a determined expression and no anger in his face. He made no complaint and offered no self-defense in the hour of his death. And his execution shot him in the back of the head from less than a meter away. “He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.” This man obeyed those who would take his life. “As a sheep before its shearers is silent.” He made no protest and did not seek to save his own life. Perhaps this young man was the servant of Isaiah 53. My opponent’s argument is that because no protest is recorded in the New Testament, then Yeshua fulfilled this prophecy – yet such a statement could be made about a multitude of falsely tried people who have been killed unjustly.

I have to say that I have often found the beginning of verse 8 a bit odd. I want to give the Hebrew here to demonstrate why I think it is odd:

מֵעֹ֤צֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ לֻקָּ֔ח וְאֶת־דּוֹר֖וֹ מִ֣י יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ
mēʿṓṣer ûmimmišpāṭ lûqqāḥ wəʾeṯ-dôrô mî yəśôḥḗaḥ
me-ótser u-mi-mishpat lukach ve-et-doro mi yesochéach

Here is how it is rendered in the translations:

By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? (NIV)
By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered… (RSV)
He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? (NKJV)
He is taken away from anguish and from doom; who shall tell out the generation of him? (Wycliffe)​

It’s never been clear to me how to understand the preposition at the beginning of this verse. Should it be “out of” or “by” or “because of”? I’m not sure. At least in modern Hebrew the word ótser means “curfew.” The word for “imprisonment” or “custody” is maʾăṣār מעצר (ma’atsar), which is not what we have here. The beginning of the verse, then, has never really made sense to me. What does it mean to say that “he was taken from oppression”? Does it mean that he had been placed in prison? Well, Yeshua was not placed in prison. He was arrested, yes, but he was not placed in prison – and, thus, could not have been taken out of prison.

If the interpretation for Isaiah 53 as Yeshua depends on seeing a “big picture” of humanity needing an atoning sacrifice and a dying savior, then it is a weak case indeed. Isaiah 53 is the main chapter that Christians have used to establish this concept, and yet it seems that the concept itself needs to be adopted in order for one to interpret the text this way.

I would insist that if you read chapters 52 and 54, the context presents itself as certainly the return of Israel to the land of promise – the elevation of Israel in the sight of the nations. And it is this elevation that causes the kings of the earth to cover their mouths in astonishment. It is this elevation that causes men to reflect on the fact that Israel had suffered as a result of their actions (and not in proportion to Israel’s own sins). In context of the preceding and following chapters, Isaiah 53 allows for no other identification of the servant than as Israel – the righteous remnant of the people and the land that itself underwent neglect and destruction over the generations. No other interpretation should be permitted, since this is the context of the chapter and it also agrees with metaphors within the book of Isaiah, as well as prophecies about Israel being raised up in the same terms as the raising up of the servant.
 
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pshun2404

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Thank you for the precise explanations of your view...

Somehow you interpret “familiar” to mean that this sickness and disease were the possession of life of the one (or many). As if this is saying they were sickly and diseased.

Brown-Driver-Briggs says yada means to know, to know of, to be familiar with, acquainted with, and Gesenius says to know, to be acquainted with…so where do you get this interpretation that it means that this servant has to have been sickly and diseased?

Also, by your interpretation (if yours is correct) you make this servant, who is God’s atonement (a sin offering), the lamb for slaughter, a sickly, diseased, and deformed lamb (God forbid). You know this is not Torah.

You are defining the servant (the faithful remnant of Israel) as this sacrificial lamb who died for the sins of unfaithful Israel, and then interpreting them further as being diseased and deformed. What? This alone if thought out should tell you, you are mistaken! Such a lamb is utterly unacceptable to God. This is clearly NOT what is said here. Whoever this is referring to, this clearly does not mean that that servant has to be one (or many) who has lived a diseased sickly life and is deformed (May the Lord forgive us).

I also did not say he merely came and healed diseases, I said though he did that also, his purpose was for the healing of our (which includes Israel) spiritual diseases (our transgressions, our iniquities, and that which disturbed our shalom.

As for making intercession, see this word also in Genesis 23:8; 28:11;32:1; Exodus 5:3, should I continue? Prayer is not what is being spoken of here. If modern Hebrew renders it to mean intercessory prayer I must conclude they are incorrect (but honestly you are the first Jewish person I have heard this from). For me. this is to say his action causes the meeting or coming together again, being the place or person of encounter, as a mediatorial instrument in the hand of the LORD. However, because we do see Yeshua in intercessory prayer in John 17 many Christians also interpret this as you do. I believe it is Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoy who describes this mediatorial function of one of the qualities of a Tzaddik. He is being like Jacob’s ladder connecting heaven and earth, bringing man once again to God and bringing God once again to man. This is how I see the use of this word here, and besides, the word prayer is just not in the text. Also I am neither a missionary or a counter missionary. I pray and study, that is all.

Yes I see his suffering as substitutionary as you have described, and yes his silence can be said of many.

I would like to point out though that in the Tanakh, no sinner or group of sinners can be their own Atonement/Sin-offering. Why? Simply because the word of God tells us so. Oh! We can and will suffer for (because of) our sins and even be punished for our sins (the soul that sins it must die), but cannot by our own sacrifice heal our transgressions or iniquities, nor remove them. Our sins (Isa. 59:2) separate us from God. So at the judgment, all whose sins are not atoned for and removed CANNOT enter the kingdom of God. Sin cannot be allowed to continue to exist in His presence. So to me this servant is the LORD’s answer to the sin problem. In this servant, by his sacrificial act (as a lamb for slaughter, which must be sinless) our sins are removed.

I cannot read into the translation in English supplied by the Jewish scholars the idea that we are speaking of two subgroups of a larger group because if we are then Isaiah has declared himself part of the group you define as unfaithful Israel. So I will allow you the last comment on this part, and then we need to discuss the second part of our premise. To do that we are going to have allow what we can know about Yeshua and most of this testimony comes from what I call the New Covenant writings.

So regarding the claims of the New Covenant writings I see only three possibilities (feel free to add):

a) First is, they were totally contrived…these despairing disciples having lost the one they thought was their savior (now dead) made the stories up to build a hoax or a legend.


b) Secondly, the circumstances appearing to be fulfillments of past prophecies were “arranged” by others before and during his life to make it appear to be that he was this awaited anointed one


c) Thirdly, Matthew and John were writing what they indeed witnessed (Mark being the memoirs of Peter), and Luke, a learned man, as a historian, was using records and personal interviews to attain a proper accounting of these events, and thus they were actually what happened.

I believe these cover all the options but feel free to add. I would suspect it best, that should we believe anything about him, it should first be found in the records of people who were there, comparatively, and to whatever degree possible supported by historical record or inference near to the time…like my familiarity with JFK’s assassination, or the return of the Jewish people to the land.

Now imagine if 200 or 300 years from now people read this history, and to deny it, begin to make up all sorts of unsupported stories and claim alleged details that no alive at the time person or near to the time person (for or against) ever implied…how should those who know react? Why would ‘alive at the time people’ have colluded to lie about such a thing if it were not true? In this case, what possible benefit at threat to their own existence would they gain? Wouldn’t at least one of the hostile forces, or one individual, who discovered such a plot, have recorded some indication that this deception was the case?

So IMO, option a) is absurd, and based on prejudice. I say this because there are too many unlikely actual events associated (like the sudden unexplainable darkness that Passover day), being historically confirmed, that give specific detail so unnecessary as to never have been included by someone building a legend or myth. Also including as evidence things like women’s testimonies, etc., which if anything would have been cause for the story not to be trusted in 1st century culture. If building a myth, such reports would not even fall into these men’s frame of reference, let alone be thought of to be used as device to enhance trust in their story. One would only mention such things (and there are more) if the detail was a fact (because it would be considered insignificant or even hostile to one’s cause). So I rule out the first option (but I would be glad to discuss it further)!

Now let us look briefly here at option b. First of all, what group of Jewish people would have done such a thing? The Pharisees (which school)? The vassal Sadducees? The Zealots? The pious Essenes? To arrange for, and succeed at pulling this off, would have involved so many people, places, and events, from years before his birth, continuing on throughout his life, and even engineering the circumstances of his death, burial, the subsequent empty tomb/resurrection events, the changed followers who died for what they 100% believed was the truth, and so on…

For all this to be engineered would be so far beyond mathematical probability (and some math has been done), to make such an assumption is entirely unsupportable. In other words, I am saying, it is not humanly possible to have engineered the appearance of all the fulfillments which circumstantially happened before the destruction of Jerusalem, and the cessation of the sacrificial system (as referred to in Daniel 9).

So for me (as I am sure is expected) that only leaves option c! Yeshua was a real historical person, and the testimonies are accounts (from four men’s perspectives) of what actually occurred. Please note another fact…no person near to his time denied anything that was preached or taught about him, inscriptions on first century graves in Jerusalem (alive at the time people), Bethany, and elsewhere, confirm what these Jewish people at the time believed…that Yeshua was Messiah; Lord; and had risen…in fact, one of the finds discovered by the secular Jewish scholar Sukenik, which shocked him, says “Yeshua is our l’shelem”…in other words, the one who completed the transaction. What transaction? His atonement healed our separation from the LORD…he was the LORD’s sin offering.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Rounds: Ten rounds, including: an introductory post from each participant; three rounds of back-and-forth debate; and, a concluding post from each participant; should the debate run it's course before the maximum number of rounds is reached, the debate may be closed on mutual consent of the opponents.


Both participants have requested two additional rounds; so the length of this debate is now 12 rounds, a total of 24 posts.:)


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yonah_mishael

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I would ask everyone’s forgiveness for beginning this post so late. Paul’s last contribution appeared on June 16, and this one is now being only begun on June 22 – which is nearly the extent of the one-week limitation governing this debate. In the past week, I spent three days in New York City running around with some great friends of mine, eating in fine restaurants, watching musicals and visiting Chelsea. It had been a while since I used a layover in NYC for sightseeing and enjoyment, and since the convergence of so many good friends took place this week, I had to put the computer aside and give some attention to living. It was a wonderful trip, and I got to spend this weekend back in the Tel Aviv sun. The only downfall of the weekend is that I came down with both a toothache (going to the dentist tomorrow [slash – this morning]) and a sinus infection that kept me in bed until around 3:30pm on Saturday. Needless to say, I haven’t felt much like writing – and I’m now starting this rebuttal at 4:17am hoping to get it finished in time.

As per my regular course, I will first confront some of the things that Paul stated in his last post, things that I think need correcting. This is especially with regard to the use of Hebrew lexicons (and dictionaries in general) and to my view of the suffering servant as a sacrificial lamb – something that has clearly been added to my view in my opponent’s reading of my argument.

Regarding the use of yadua (ידוע) in Isaiah 53.3 in the phrase yedua choli (ידוע חולי), Paul has referred to the Brown-Driver-Briggs (BDB) lexicon and Gesenius’s lexicon to define the root yod-dalet-ayin (י.ד.ע) as “to know, be familiar with, be acquainted with.” I would not disagree with this assessment, of course, since it is the basic meaning of the term. However, I would make the following addition: lexical terms in any language, not just in Hebrew, have their basic meaning that can be changed when they appear in other situations. For example, the verb “taste” in English simply means “to try or test the flavor or quality of something by taking some into the mouth” (taken from dictionary.com). No one would disagree that this is the meaning of the word “taste.” It is clear in the following sentences.

(1) We tasted the apples to see if they were as delicious as we had heard.
(2) I hope some day to taste your mother’s pecan pie!
(3) This ice cream is so delicious! You have to taste it!​

No speaker of English would disagree with the meaning of this term. However, does this meaning hold up in the following sentences?

(4) Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matt. 16.28 NIV)
(5) It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. (Heb. 6.4-6a NIV)​

Would anyone argue that (4) and (5) are using the same meaning of the word “taste” as (1), (2) and (3)? I don’t think so. Yet, this is what Paul is saying that we should do here. We should simply apply the meaning of “know” to this word, although it is passive in form, appears in the construct and is the only instance of this specific form in the Bible. It certainly does not fit the normal paradigm for the use of this root. In modern Hebrew, this form is used only passively, as in the following.

(6) האדם הזה ידוע כגנב – This man is known as a thief.
(7) ידוע לי שחברה זו לא משלמת משכורות כראוי – It is known to me that this company does not pay salaries properly.​

It is actually odd that yedua choli would mean someone who knows sickness rather than someone who is known (in the passive) to be sickly. Yet, this is how everyone apparently translates the term here in Isa. 53.3.

However, if we are going to consult lexicons, then we must be careful to look and see if there are special remarks regarding the specific form that we are interested in. In this case, yedua choli appears specifically in the lexicons and should be treated as a special term, much like the use of “taste” when it means “experience.” Paul quoted Gesenius in his post, yet Gesenius also has this to say in the same entry:

Isaiah 53:3, יְדוּעַ חֹלִי “known to sickness,” i.e. bekannt, vertraut mit Krankheit, for the prose expression יָדוּעַ לָחֳלִי [yadua lo-choli], according to others, known by sickness, as being remarkable for suffering and calamities; an especial example of a man afflicted with calamities.​

In fact, all of the lexicons, when you go beyond the basic meaning of the root י.ד.ע, display the same meaning – that yedua choli refers to a person who was himself sick and often afflicted with disease. The Even-Shoshan Hebrew-Hebrew dictionary (I have the abridged one-volume edition) reads in the following way for the phrase yedua choli. My translation follows in italics:

חולני, חלוש, חולה כרוני – sickly, frail, chronically ill

Indeed, there can be absolutely no doubt that when Isaiah describes the servant as yedua choli, he means that the servant is himself plagued with disease. This, again, is not a description that anyone would agree fits Yeshua, and I am unconvinced that a simple reference with regard to the meaning of the root of the word “know” in Hebrew will change this fact. I am well acquainted with the use of the Hebrew root and have also read further in the definitions provided in the lexicons than just the first line. My opponent would do well to do the same before responding in this way.

[As a less important point, Gesenius also mentions with regard to להפגיע that it means “to assail any one with prayers.” My opponent surely did not read that far into the lexicon to realize that there’s a difference between פגע and הפגיע and that the latter certainly does refer to intercessory prayer, as I stated before. In fact, even the qal form of this root can be used for prayer, as we see in Jer. 7.16.]

This concludes the first point of my response – regarding the use of lexicons and how it applies to the phrase yedua choli in Isa. 53.3. There can be no doubt that the servant described here is both disfigured and diseased. And the second point is to follow straight away.

My opponent has misrepresented me in stating that I would suggest that the servant in Isa. 53.3 is himself a sacrificial lamb. I have never made that statement. I know perfectly well that animals offered in sacrifice in the Temple had to be free of blemish or defect. If I thought that the servant here were to be thought of as a sacrifice, I would have to agree that my presentation of the servant has been one of imperfection and blemish. I am simply representing what the text says – that when the people looked at this servant, they were turned away from him. It was like an ugly homeless person who approaches you in the street. Your first reaction is to be shocked (“Oh my goodness!”) and then you turn away and try to get along as quickly as you can. This is what we are seeing here, a sickly, weak, abused man left for dead in the street – people turning their heads when they look at him. And this diseased wretch suddenly becomes glorious and strong! That is the marvel of the onlookers in this song. They are shocked at this change in station.

The servant was not to be a sacrificial lamb. No, indeed. And I am not one who ever made that argument. You can start from my introduction and read until now and never find this concept in anything that I said. What I did say is that the people of Israel were abused, despised and afflicted among the nations; they were thought of as less than human; they were mistreated and ignored; and the nations of the world will be shocked when these people rise from the ashes of despair – as has happened even in the last couple of generations of world history.

I do not think this is the time or place to take up the question of the authorship of the gospels, though I will just say that a casual read of Bart Ehrman will be enough to dispel the myths that my opponent is proposing here. Ehrman essentially presents the position of normative scholarship on these questions, even where I would disagree with him. I won’t go into the various debates regarding these things, since it would be only a rabbit trail and have nothing to do with the meaning of Isaiah 53. That said, I would like to go further into my interpretation of this chapter.

Chapter 2 of Isaiah gives us an indication about why Israel was punished:

You, LORD, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and embrace pagan customs. Their land is full of silver and gold; there is no end to their treasures. Their land is full of horses; there is no end to their chariots. Their land is full of idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their fingers have made. So people will be brought low and everyone humbled— do not forgive them. (Isa. 2.6-9 NIV)​

Whose sins were Israel copying? They were copying the sins of the East (superstitions), the Philistines (divination), etc. Everything that they were doing was only a reflection of what the rest of the nations were doing. This is the warning we find in the Torah:

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. (Lev. 18.24-29 NIV)​

They were warned that if they did any of the “detestable things” that the nations had done who lived in the land, they would be vomited out just like the peoples who were there before them. Isaiah is simply saying that the promise in the Torah was to be fulfilled – that the people had imitated the ways of the nations all around them and would themselves be removed from the land. The land itself would be defiled by their sins and emptied of its inhabitants for the sake of its renewal. But, it was ever and always the sins of Israel’s neighbors – that they were not being punished for, after all – that would be the downfall of Israel and bring about its suffering.

The servant is pictured as suffering as a result of the sins of the peoples. Why? Because the nation of Israel adopted the practices of the nations that lived around them. They took up their behaviors and abhorrent practices, and God brought punishment upon them. However, the nations realized that they had committed the same sins, that they were guilty of the very same things. In fact, the righteous among Israel had never done these things, and yet they underwent the same punishments and did not deserve it. When we look at the servant, we are looking at a people who suffered as the result of the nations’ sins – even if it was ultimately because they themselves copied them – and the innocent among them suffered the same fate. Once the wicked were destroyed from Israel, however, the righteous could shine forth.

This destruction of what is unholy from within Israel is mentioned in Isaiah 4.2-6, which speaks of the glory of the return of Israel. Notice that it specifically says that “[t]hose who are left in Zion, who remain in Jerusalem, will be called holy” (verse 3 NIV). These holy ones did not deserve exile, yet they suffered and were able to make it through without becoming defiled. These are those who are ultimately God’s servants. His servants are not those who sinned but those who are called holy.

The raising up of the servant in the end is the very same thing prophesied in chapter 2 of Isaiah:

In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. (Isa. 2.2-4 NIV)​

Just as Isaiah 2 describes the exaltation of Israel, so chapter 53 describes the exaltation of the servant. The picture of the servant’s exaltation – because he does the will of God and does not commit the sins of the nations round about – is completed in chapter 54, where we hear the following call:

Enlarge the place of your tent, stretch your tent curtains wide, do not hold back; lengthen your cords, strengthen your stakes. For you will spread out to the right and to the left; your descendants will dispossess nations and settle in their desolate cities. (Isa. 54.2-3 NIV)

“The LORD will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit— a wife who married young, only to be rejected,” says your God. “For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back. In a surge of anger I hid my face from you for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD your Redeemer. (Isa. 54.6-8 NIV)

Afflicted city, lashed by storms and not comforted, I will rebuild you with stones of turquoise, your foundations with lapis lazuli. I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of sparkling jewels, and all your walls of precious stones. All your children will be taught by the LORD, and great will be their peace. In righteousness you will be established: Tyranny will be far from you; you will have nothing to fear. Terror will be far removed; it will not come near you. If anyone does attack you, it will not be my doing; whoever attacks you will surrender to you. (Isa. 54.11-15 NIV)​
 
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yonah_mishael

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The closing sections of the final servant song of Isaiah remind us of the re-establishment of the city of Jerusalem and the repopulation of the land of Israel. This is the very exaltation of the mountain of the house of God described in chapter 2. Israel goes from being abused and weak to being the most important nation in the world. This is the meaning of the servant song, and it cannot be overlooked when the context of the entire book of Isaiah is brought in.

Does Isaiah speak of the Messiah in other places? Yes. Do we learn many things about the Messiah from the prophecies of Isaiah? Yes. Does every chapter of Isaiah stick to the topic of the Messiah? No. In fact, much of the prophecy of the book deals with the punishment of the various nations around Israel, the punishment of Israel itself for idolatry and abomination, and the purification of the people of Israel and their being brought back. The beating of the servant is twofold in meaning, as is its restoration. It refers both to the exile of the people and their abuse while in exile, but it also refers to the destruction of the land itself – and specifically of the city of Jerusalem. The exaltation of the servant refers both to the return of the people to the land and to the repopulation of the land and rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem. The servant is the complete picture of the land and the people together, both suffering and both exalted.

As to the reference of Israel being “cut off from the land of the living,” this goes hand-in-hand with the image of the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37, where a valley of dry bones was to be raised from the dead and turned into a great people. Verse 11 tells us that the dry bones really meant the people of Israel, who had gone into exile and felt that they were cut off, hopeless and dead. God tells them that he would bring them back to life – that is, he would gather them together and bring them back to the land of Israel. The exile of the people was their having been cut off from the land of the living, from the promises of God, from the hope that the Torah had held out to them. Bringing them back to the land represents a reestablishment of the promises, a return to hope and new life.

I have probably not stayed within the allotted space for this post, but I thought that I needed to address a lot. I hope that I have fulfilled my obligations to respond up to this point and have adequately established my position here.

Thank you.

YM

P.S. After submitting this to the CF thread, I see that it was about 2000 characters too long. I’m submitting the last part of the text as a separate post. I hope that this is acceptable this one time. Sorry for overstepping.
 
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pshun2404

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Yonah, a couple of things,

a) Don’t assume I do not read the longer explanations which bring out more subtle shades of meaning and application, as I do, I just disagree they apply here

b) Secondly, I am well aware, and argue even among my brethren, that words in Hebrew can have many applications and meanings depending on their contextual use

c) As just a man, I cannot understand the motive Jewish scholars would have had, when interpreting these passages into other languages, for not just translating it as you claim it should be understood (Were they, against the will of YHVH, intentionally trying to deceive the nations?). Now this is not my opinion. But if when we read the word of God we have been mislead, that is a shame unto Israel and I do not believe it true!

Now next, I am not saying YOU LITERALLY SAID this servant a the lamb of sacrifice, but based on your description of your position, you claimed this passage referred to “…the suffering of the righteous among Israel for the sake of those who were actually worthy of punishment…”. You called this “a more complete view of … the majority of Jews.” Not my words!

My point was the song itself that calls this Servant (the “ish”, or man of sorrows) a lamb for slaughter (53:7), and tells us that his soul (his nephesh) was an OFFERING FOR SIN…(53:10)

It is obvious that this alludes to his being made to be a sin offering (guilt or tresspass are equally fine). This explanation follows the passages that speak of his being cut off (see Daniel 9), his death, his grave, etc., so to say that it does not speak of his death as making intercession or accomplishing atonement, is either a later adaptation to suit an agenda or an intentional translational misrepresentation (which I refuse to believe). Only someone spiritually blind or intentionally refusing to see the obvious conclusion would miss this. So because of this, I stand on my belief that the lexical form I gave is the appropriate one, and that the one you are making (which changes the translation that your people gave) is not the correct one.

So based on quotes from your posts (like the one I give above), and your description of this Servant having to be sickly, diseased, and disfigured, it is the only logical conclusion that IF YOU are correct in your interpretation, then “the righteous among Israel” are the sickly, diseased, and disfigured (I believe you said “deformed”)….

Then…since the passages define this one as a lamb/offering for sin (not my words, unless your Rabbis were being deceivers which I do not believe), and “the righteous among Israel” (according to you), are this servant, then it logically follows this lamb/offering (righteous Israel) is sickly, diseased, and disfigured. Now though you did not literally use these words simply do the math…justify yourself if you must but better someone tell you.

I won’t nit-pick the rest, but there are other flaws in your logic…but we must move on as we only have a couple posts left.

Now one final thing…Ehrman is at best an apostate. His school of thought (which only is one view) negates everything you or I would hold in common as sacred and true. And certainly makes every attempt to misrepresent things I know are true and have reviewed much evidence in support of both from history and archaeology. So if you are going to lift him up as some supporter of your position let all of CF and Hebrew Café KNOW that this man does not believe almost anything you hold dear and true. He does not believe Moses wrote the Torah, doubts at least 75% of what it speaks of. Believes most of it was written (as if by Moses to fool people) by scribal redactors centuries later (as late as the 500 BCE), does not believe in anything miraculous God did, there is no literal heaven, or ha’Satan, David’s kingdom was a mere nomadic chiefdom, and on and on and on…in fact, when you read this man in his entirety you realize he is saying the people of Israel basically colluded to pull off a hoax by stealing other peoples histories and making up legends because they were so ignorant and insignificant. In his very subtle though scholarly presented way of negating real history Ehrman continues all the way through the New Covenant writings as well. Ehrman is a son of Belial! A wolf is still a wolf no matter how many modern sheepskins he hides behind.

Now then…

He will be the Servant of the Lord (Isaiah 52:13a)…

Even as the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28)…yet it was God who gave him as His ben-yachid (John 3:16)

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me (John 6:38)

He would be highly exalted (52:13b)

Matthew 21:1-11, Mark 11:1-11, Luke 19:28-44 and John 12:12-19
God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name (Philippians 2:9)

There were many that exalted him, but it was God who made him for this role. Now though exalted by many, many more rejected him and hated him.
He would be marred and disfigured (52:14)

Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands…and more (Matthew 26:67)

The shedding of His blood was for atonement (52:15)

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins (John 8:24)

Who was delivered (unto death) for our offences, and was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:5).

…the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins, in his own blood (Revelations 1:5)

He would be despised and rejected by men (53:3)

The governor answered and said unto them, Which of the two would you have that I release unto you? They said, “Barabbas.” Pilate said unto them, What shall I do then with Yeshua which is called Messiah? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified! And the governor said, Why? What evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified (Matthew 27:21, 22)

And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong (Luke 4:28-29)

So though many followed him, most rejected him, and those who came to God through him by his selfless act as the sin offering received the remission of their sins…

Sorrow and grief for his people was his burden, knowing what was to happen (Isaiah 53:3)

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou had only known, even you, at least in this your day, the things which belong unto your peace! But now they are hid from yuour eyes. (Luke 19:41-42; John 11:35)

People associated with him hid their faces from him (Isaiah 53:3)

And they all forsook him, and fled. (Mark 14:50)

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. (Matthew 26:56)

His acts would provide healing (mainly to the soul but also he healed all who came to him) (Isaiah 53:4)

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Hebrew 2:14-15)

…the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed. And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all (Luke 6:17-19)

He came to bear and carry the sins of humanity (Isaiah 53:4)

For Messiah also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit (1 Peter 3:18)

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace (Ephesians 1:7)

Now above, I have given a few testimonials for each of the verses I have covered. In each instance there certainly were more that could be given. There are fulfillments for each and every verse of the Servant Song (and more for many other references from the Tanakh).

Therefore I say unto you…it is not humanly possible for any man or group of men to have engineered all these instances, for they would have had to conspire with so many of the Jewish people, the vassal Priests, the Romans, etc., and as I indicated, all of this would have had to have started with people preparing, from long before His birth, and well after His death, burial, and resurrection. Let alone involving circumstances and forces (some of them hostile to Him and the movement) that would have to have been part of this grand plot. The sheer mathematical improbability of such a phenomenon makes it unreasonable to assume Yeshua was not this person.

Isaiah 63:8-10 For He (YHVH) said, “Surely they (Israel) are my people, children that will not lie: (Now the Prophet comments) so he (YHVH) was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of his Presence (YHVH’s) saved them (the Memra, translated Logos): in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.” (Parentheses mine)

Now we can exchange about each and every nuance of interpretation but the real issue for me is that I cannot see how any can miss the overall point , that after Genesis 3, the underlying effort and intention of God is the movement toward redemption and that this was to involve not only a people (clearly Israel) but a person who He would send for this purpose. The argument that this “person”is merely human is erroneous. Micah 5:2 -4 makes it clear that Messiah was not to be a mere human…this one not yet born as a human had been coming forth since everlasting. Read verse 4 carefully and I will look forward to your next post! Shalom…
 
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yonah_mishael

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Let’s say that you look up the word dog in a dictionary. What do you find? You should find some kind of description of a four-legged mammal with fur, sharp teeth, etc. But let’s say that you’re looking up an expression raining cats and dogs. You look up each word, and you are certain that it means that cats and dogs are falling from the sky. However, hidden in the dictionary is the mention of an idiomatic expression in which raining cats and dogs (this specific congruence of words) simply means “pouring down rain” or “raining very strongly.” Do you then ignore this information for the sake of the literal meaning of the word dog in the first entry of the dictionary?

This is what my opponent in this debate is suggesting that we do with the word yadua in Hebrew. We need to ignore several things: (1) the specific form of the word [that is, yedua (construct) over against yadua (absolute); yadua (passive) over against yodea (active); yodea (simple) over against hodia (causative); etc.]; (2) the word used in connection with other words [in this case choli]; (3) the specific mention of this very verse and this very combination of words in all of the major dictionaries and how they define it. He would have us ignore all of this extra information for the sake of definition the term simply as “to know.”

It would be an oversight not have read to the end of the lexical entry before accusing me of not knowing what the expression meant. It is an absurdity that he uses these dictionaries as authorities for word definitions while ignoring the information that they contain about this specific expression in this specific verse – that is, yedua choli in Isaiah 53.3.

As far as his questioning Jewish motivations in translation, I’m not sure what Jewish translation he has consulted that does not render yedua choli as “familiar with sickness,” which is interpreted by every single Jewish commentator to mean “a person who suffers of diseases.” In order for him to attack Jewish translators, I should hope that he first would provide us with Jewish translations in which this is not the case or commentators who wrote differently.

As per claiming that I implied that the servant was a sacrificial lamb, that is a conclusion of his own mind. I never hinted at such a thing, but if that is how he reads my arguments, I can only remain unsurprised. His mind has already been convinced that Isaiah is speaking of a lamb dying for the sins of the world, so why should it shock me that he would think that I write about such a thing, too? He seems to find what he wants to within the words of other people. As for me, I never had that in mind at all. I do not imagine the servant here as a sacrificial lamb. The only closeness in the verse appears in two things: (1) that he bears sins of others (which calls to mind the scapegoat of Yom Kippur – not a lamb); and, (2) that he doesn’t speak before his accusers like a lamb that does not cry out before its shearers (though, this silence does not mean that he’s a lamb). I never said such things, but I can understand why a mind led by these types of thoughts would come to that conclusion – but it’s still a wrong conclusion. Rather than calling the servant a lamb for slaughter, as my opponent claims is the case in Isaiah 53.7. A comparison was made to a sheep that was silent before its shearers and a lamb that goes without resistance to be slaughtered. This compliance does not mean that he was called a lamb in this passage.

I have to say that I do not like the tone of this last post. It rings of accusations – “a later adaptation to suit an agenda,” “an intentional translational misrepresentation,” “someone spiritually blind,” “intentionally refusing to see the obvious conclusion,” etc. This is not the type of interaction that I signed up for. At every point in this debate, I have sought to express my thoughts clearly. I work directly from the Hebrew text and am not depending on mistranslations, intentional or otherwise. If I have an agenda, it is an agenda of understanding a text according to its context. Whether or not I am spiritually blind, I will leave to greater authorities than myself to determine.

However, if this is how the rest of the thread will tend, then I would like to call for an end of the discussion – that the conclusions be drawn and we be finished with this.

Thank you,

YM
 
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pshun2404

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Well let’s see Yonah, apparently I struck a nerve, the ancient Masoretic as translated into English by your ancient scholars says this 53:3 “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not

The Mechon-Mamre interprets it “He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not

The Jewish scholars when translating the Great Isaiah Scroll give us these words…”He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him

So no indeed, my point was not accusative, as I stated clearly (twice) that I did not believe it to be the case that they misinterpreted it or intentionally gave a different implication (though it differs consistently from your own). In other words, I think they were being honest with the text, and this is what the text intends to say. My question was if it does not say this then why make it say it this way?

But however if as you say is true, then it should read “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and known for being sickly (or leprous): and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.” If this is correct why did not at least one of these groups of learned men simply say that?

So again I will agree with the wording your translators gave to us, which I believe they did attempting their best, objective, commitment to the text they had received. So if you want to argue this point, and claim falsely that I am accusing the Jewish people of such a thing, you are wrong and your argument from now on with regard to this point is with YOUR people’s translators, not with me. So no, I will not waste any more time on this point, not because I was accusing the Jewish scholars who made ALL these translations, but because I agree with the plain wording of what they wrote.

Is not the first rule of PARDES that the basic level, the foundation (yesod), is the primary reading? I believe that is so. Thus I just take the word for what it says, the rest is commentary, discussion, interpretation, and so on!

I am not out of step with many early Rabbis that this song speaks of Messiah but you can believe what you will, that’s fine with me. I did not say they intentionally misrepresent what is said here, I said if it does not say what it says (which I do not believe) THEN it is intentionally misinterpreted (for which I see no reason or motive).

As per claiming that I implied that the servant was a sacrificial lamb, that is a conclusion of his own mind. I never hinted at such a thing, but if that is how he reads my arguments

Again, for the third time (so I will not repeat it) I did not say YOU said this, I said the word of God says this (vs. 7 and 10) so please read what I wrote and stop with the false accusations, please.

His mind has already been convinced that Isaiah is speaking of a lamb dying for the sins of the world

Sad really, I thought more highly. I believe it is talking of a man (who like a lamb for slaughter) suffers to atone for our sins, and that is does not speak of the people that the song says he is doing this for (Isaiah, a righteous Israelite, and his people). And yes, this servant fulfills the role of the scapegoat, and the lamb slain whose blood sprinkles many.

Now consider a small number of prophetic utterances fulfilled:

Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1). Born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18). He was of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33). He would be King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31). He would be called a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11), the Prince of Peace, and the mighty God, and He would do works of wonder (Isaiah 9:6,7), teach in parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34), be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2), enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37), be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50), for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15), the sell-out money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7), forsaken by His own (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50),falsely accused (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60), silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14), badly beaten (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26), spat upon (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30), struck about the head (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30), mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31), killed, they would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24), He would intercede (even in prayer) for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34), suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28) and be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34), crying out, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46),cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24), none of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33), they would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34) and will so again, and mourn, He was executed with criminals (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38), but be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60), and on and on…

Now one may perhaps point to another, or even a few, to whom some such things were experienced, but for one man to have all these happen, and to be forever compared to these things…to be called the Son, the Word, the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace, etc.??? What are the odds?

From around 200 years before His birth, we see in Jewish literature and tradition, a growing awareness of the day of his arrival welling up among the learned as Daniel’s weeks of years was coming to a close.

For example, we see this theme hinted at in the writings of the priests of Qumran, who may have been the Essenes, at first they provide us with pictures derived from scriptures of a Priestly, and a Kingly Messiah, who come in that order at different times. As their literature and commentary develop, we see these characters revealed a single, possibly eternal, entity, who is none other than one who is like Melchizedek returned (the King of Righteousness, the King of Peace). The sole source for their conclusion is the Law and the Prophets. There was no Yeshua, no New Covenant writings. (see The Dead Sea Scriptures, by Hebrew Scholar Theodore Gaster).

For another example, look in The Psalms of Solomon (from around 100 BCE), Chapter11, the writer says:

“Blow the Shofar in Zion, to summon the Saints, and to cause you to be heard in Jerusalem, the voice of him that brings good tidings. For God has pity on Israel in visiting them

And again in Chapter 13 it reads:

“For he corrects the righteous as a beloved son, and his chastisement is that of a firstborn

When R.H. Charles (The Apocrypha and Pseudephigrapha of the Old Testament) found and translated ‘The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs’ these were accused of having been written in the 2nd century CE and probably redacted by Christians…but then lo and behold we found copies of some among the Dead Sea Scrolls dating between 137 – 107 BCE and they did not differ a hairs breadth. They are a witness to the thinking of these Jewish priests and writers as the weeks of years counted down…

In Simeon we read “Then the Mighty One of Israel (Isaiah 9:6)* shall glorify Shem. For the Lord God shall appear on Earth and Himself save men…God has taken a body, and eaten with men, and saved men, …be not lifted up against these two, for from them shall arise unto you the Salvation of God (Yah’s yeshuah). For the Lord shall raise up, as it were…a High Priest, and…a King, God and man, and He shall save the Gentiles, and the people of Israel

In Asher…“…the Most High shall visit the earth, coming Himself as a man, eating and drinking with men, and breaking the head of the dragon (a reference to Gen. 3:15)…He shall save Israel and all the gentiles, God speaking in the person of a man

In Benjamin the writer says “…the Most High shall send forth His salvation in the visitation of an only begotten Prophet…He shall enter into the Temple and be treated with outrage, and He shall be lifted up on a tree, and the veil of the Temple shall be rent, and the Spirit of God shall pass unto the gentiles…He shall ascend from the abode of the dead, and pass from earth to Heaven…how lowly He shall be on earth…how glorious in Heaven…”

(Parentheses mine)

The Qumran writers tie this “time of visitation“, to Isaiah 52:7’s herald, or “messenger of good tidings“, who brings God’s shalom (that is Shiloh), and then go on to say that He is the one anointed in Isaiah 61:1. Now all this is Jewish from before the birth of Yeshua.

Can all this evidence given so far, just looked at objectively, not baffle the mind. Only Yeshua fits this picture in all of human history!
 
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yonah_mishael

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I believe that this discussion was supposed to be both civil and focused. Civil in that we agreed to have an open discussion regarding a chapter in the book of Isaiah and do so with reason and persuasive argument. Focused in that the chapter of our attention was singularly Isaiah 53. It has increasingly become both uncivil and unfocused, and I think the intention of this discussion has been lost.

I’m reminded of the debate between Pablo Christiani and the Ramban (Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman Gerondi). It certainly started out civilly enough. Each debater wanted to establish his own point and make the better argument, but once the Ramban did not cave to Christiani’s “reasoning,” the debate turned to preaching and attacks. He essentially relied on the prejudiced opinions of the audience to stir up emotional opposition to the lone Jew who came to reason together with them.

We should have though that this discussion, which was unparalleled in history, would have led to greater understanding and appreciation of the Jewish view, but it certainly didn’t. The debate, which took place in 1263, became known far and wide – especially how the arguer for Judaism stood against the preachment of the Dominican friar who had converted from Judaism. As a result of this debate, the Talmud was censored by the authority of King James I of Aragon, and I am convinced that it contributed to the Catholic Kings expelling Jews in 1492 and instituting the Inquisition.

I’m not suggesting that our online debate could have any lasting ramifications over and beyond what our readers take away on this forum, but I was hoping that the conduct within in the debate could be maintained on a higher level and represent the best type of dialogue. My hopes have been deflated, though, in the last two posts of my opponent. Does my opponent believe that Yeshua was the Messiah? Does he read Isaiah 53 with regard to the Messiah and think that it applies to Yeshua? Yes and yes. That is fine, and we could debate that all day, but what I’ve come to see is that he isn’t really interested in understanding my position – which I’ve labored to make clear in this debate – and he is becoming frustrated that I will not consent to his rightness. He has now accused me of twisting the meaning of the text, of being spiritually blind, of ignoring what he thinks no reasonable person should be able to miss – the conclusions of his position, of missing the entire thrust of Jewish prophecy and history. We’ve come to a point where we can no longer discuss anything reasonably, since it will all be powdered with his emotional aversion to my obstinate character (“this is a stiff-necked people” indeed!).

I do not consider preaching or personal attacks to be good forms of debate, and I will not respond to the last rebuttal which my opponent has posted – at all.

Let it be noted that I have called for conclusions and will no longer respond to my opponent. My conclusion will be written with the goal of wrapping up my position and answering one other question posted on the open forum.

Regards,
YM
 
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pshun2404

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Apparently I do owe you an apology Yonah! As I read back, when I posted

"My point was the song itself that calls this Servant (the “ish”, or man of sorrows) a lamb for slaughter (53:7), and tells us that his soul (his nephesh) was an OFFERING FOR SIN…(53:10).

It is obvious that this alludes to his being made to be a sin offering (guilt or tresspass are equally fine). This explanation follows the passages that speak of his being cut off (see Daniel 9), his death, his grave, etc., so to say that it does not speak of his death as making intercession or accomplishing atonement, is either a later adaptation to suit an agenda, or an intentional translational misrepresentation (which I refuse to believe). Only someone spiritually blind or intentionally refusing to see the obvious conclusion would miss this
"

I can see how you would have taken that as a personal shot. Based on the description given in the passage I should have said "In my opinion one would have to be spiritually blind or intentionally refusing to see the obvious..." but even that does not leave other options...

So I am sorry for not thinking this our more...it was meant to be a generality about how one reasons from the evidence given, but apparently a very poor and insensitive one, because if someone disagrees (which is the purpose of a debate) then this places then into one of these (opinionated) categories.

I will try to keep on my toes and not make the same mistake...

your friend,

Paul
 
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