First off , I'd like to say that this is more like a friendly discussion between brothers than a debate for points .
I present to you the Amillennialist position, that the thousand years is allegorical, it's talking about a church age between the cross and the second coming at the end of time , there is no literal thousand year reign on earth of Christ or " millennium ",
It is noted that no scriptural evidence is offered to prove this claim.
Can you prove with scripture when the thousand years began?
Can you prove with scripture when scripture says it will end?
Can you prove with scripture the thousand years is the church age?
Does not Revelation say it is a time where formerly dead saints reign with Christ with a rod of iron over the nations? I don't see any physically resurrected saints any where. I don't see Christ physically returned any where. It appears you are claiming we are in a time period yet the world lacks all the written components of that special time period.
Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture
To reign means to rule over people and have complete control. Look around at the world. ISIS is murdering Christians and harming the growth of the gospel. The world is full is false gods and religions and evil practices.
It is clear someone else reigns this wicked, morally corrupt world currently:
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Prince here doesn't mean second in command or something like we think in modern English, it means the ruler, the first in rank or power:
G758
a?´????
archo¯n
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
G758
a?´????
archo¯n
Thayer Definition:
1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: present participle of G757
Citing in TDNT: 1:488, 81
According to Christ, the ruler of this world was to come after Christ left. We know from Rev 12 that after He ascended there was a war in heaven and satan was cast to the Earth just as Christ said would happen. According to Jesus Christ himself, the one reigning/ruling the world after His ascension would be satan!
So when would Christ reign his enemies on the Earth?
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
So when does Christ leave the right hand of God in heaven and come to the Earth to defeat his enemies and reign? The second coming of course. We also see this depicted in Rev 19.
Amill asks, "Isn't Christ's kingdom reigning on the Earth now?"
No.
Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
His reign here begins when the 7th trump sounds.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
This is the first time when Christ reigns literally over all kings and their kingdoms.
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable,
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which
in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
His times would be specifically "the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" at the 7th trump! That is when he is actively and defacto King of Kings reigning over all Earthly kingdoms and reigning over his enemies with a rod of iron.
Here is what we know:
1. Christ said satan is the ruler of the world.
2. Christ's reign will begin when he leaves the right hand of God in heaven and comes to the Earth.
2a. That is the second coming at the 7th trump.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Christ knew his kingdom and reign here starts when he returned at the 7th trump.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.
But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Does this mean Christ died and resurrected himself right at this moment or was that a future thing he has authority to do?
Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So in comparison he received the knowledge that in the future he and his saints would rule over the nations with a rod of iron.
That particular reign did not start when John had this vision, which was somewhere around Ad 93 or so. Even AD 70, which I disagree with, is still many decades after the cross. If Christ is reigning now with a rod of iron why the decades of delay after the cross? That makes no logical sense.
But understand both of the things he said he received from the Father were related to the future, everything makes logical and scriptural sense and matches perfectly with each other. This is sound exegesis.
for one the Scriptures teach only one second coming , not a secret coming and a public coming ( Acts 17:31 , 24:15 ) Two everyone will see him ( Acts 1:11 , Mark 14:62 )
That's an argument against the Pre-trib rapture, yet that is not what we are debating here. Christ indeed returns one time but we are debating when that is in relation to the thousand years. Clearly Christ returns once and all see him.
Third , premillennialism states that there's a second chance after the second coming , Scripture teaches no second chance after then ( Matt25:70 , Heb 9:27) ,
Neither of those verses state there are no second chances after the second coming. What Rev 19-20 show is there is a thousand years after the second coming. If God gives anyone a second chance during that time it is God's choice. Clearly God has given some type of a chance to the nations because he allows them to live and be reigned over by Christ and the saints. Why give them that time to be reigned over rather than just kill them at the second coming?
Fourth,the premillennialist position places the center of the gospel as the Jews , instead of Christ the Jewish Messiah ( Rom 1:16 ) ,
This isn't true. Scripture is clear there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ, all are equal. Anyone who espouses anything different is incorrect.
Fifth, the Nicene , Athanaisian , and Apostles Creeds as well as the majority of the church fathers teach the Amillinialists position ,
Firstly, that is untrue. Secondly, even if it were true, it is irrelevant as only scripture matters.
Also Christs kingdom is now in believing hearts and will be fully recognized at the resurrection of all, its not some earthy kingdom ( 1 John 3:2 , Rev 1:5-6) ,
The reign of a rod of iron is very much an Earthly kingdom because the entire purpose of it is to be reigning over the Earthly nations! The nations are not being reigned by Christ now! Look at them, they are murdering Christians, promoting their false religions...if Christ is reigning he isn't actually doing anything to control the nations. It is clear that the nations are wild and reckless and are not under a Godly reign currently because the rod of iron is used to control negative behavior. You are confusing the rod of iron reign (which is temporary, lasting only a thousand years) with his eternal reign.
Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
The Millennium is the first time Christ has the opportunity to rule the nations with a rod of iron. The rod has no need in heaven thus the rod of iron can only apply to an Earthly reign over his enemies.
Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Here he returns, smites and "shall rule" the nations. That happens because shortly after his return the Millennium begins.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
This is clearly a new development else it wouldn't be mentioned.
It is at the 7th trump when he takes reign over the kingdoms of the world, stripping them of the reigns they previously enjoyed. That is the use of the rod of iron in action, dissolving their evil administrations.
Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Barnes:
As the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers - The ironic here is that of the vessel of a potter - a fragile vessel of clay - struck with a rod of iron and broken into fragments. That is, as applied to the nations, there would be no power to oppose His rule; the enemies of his government would be destroyed. Instead of remaining firm and compacted together, they would be broken like the clay vessel of a potter when struck with a rod of iron.
Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Rev_12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
"Rule"
G4165
p??µa?´??
poimaino¯
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166;
to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Some people don't understand what a supervising shepherd does when he TENDS a flock under his control. To tend is to take care of! A supervisor watches over his employees, not kill them! A shepherd controls and protects his flock and that is the type of rule that shall be not the judgment and destruction of the wicked during the Millennium. They are protected from the deceptions of satan for the entire thousand years. It is clear error to mix the concept of shepherding with judging and punishing and killing. In addition, they will have no way to group and form together to rebel during this time which is expressed by the vessels being broken up. The pieces are individuals and the vessels represented they previous way they had been grouped together in opposition to Christ.
There is another use of this vessel being destroyed and it is not about killing people but breaking up an organization of people who rebel against God:
Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
Isa 30:13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
Isa 30:14 And
he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
The metaphor of a vessel being broken is never about individuals being killed. God didn't kill every Jew. But their rebellion and sin against him caused the demise of their chosen status, even the covenant between them and God. Fast forward to the Millennium and again those who rebel against Christ shall have their wicked organizations broken up, leaving them powerless and unable to organize against Christ during this period of TIME of the reign/rule with a rod of iron. They live to be reigned over. When God allows satan to deceive them, then a brief and failed rebellion occurs and they are killed and judged and are no more forever.
Barnes:
As the breaking of the potter’s vessel - That is, as an earthen, fragile vessel, which is easily dashed to pieces. The image here is all drawn from the bursting forth, or the complete ruin of the swelling wall; but the sense is, that the Jewish republic would be entirely broken, scattered, demolished.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Barnes:
Psalms 2:9
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron - That is, evidently, thine enemies, for it cannot be supposed to be meant that he would sway such a scepter over his own people. The idea is that he would crush and subdue all his foes. He would have absolute power, and the grant which had been made to him would be accompanied with authority sufficient to hold it. That dominion which was to be conceded to him would be not only one of protection to his friends, but also of punishment on his enemies; and the statement here is made prominent because the former part of the psalm had respect to rebels, and the Messiah is here represented as being invested with power sufficient to punish and restrain them. The Vulgate renders this “thou shalt rule;” the Septuagint, “thou shalt feed - p??µa?e??? poimaneis; that is, thou shalt feed them as a shepherd does his flock; thou shalt exercise over them the care and protection of a shepherd.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
This speaks of this. The rod of iron destroys their dominion and systems of control and rebellion for a period of TIME known as the Millennium. They are allowed to live for that period, then they will be destroyed just as Rev 20 portrays. And this is the corroboration for the Millennial period some have demanded at length.
Psa 2:9 (LXX) You shall break/tend them with a rod?ofiron; as?vessels of a potter?you shall break them.?
AMill thinks the term "break" means destroy. Many of the translations Psalms 2 translations read "to rule" (BBE, NIV, NIRV, ERV, Brenton (LXX), DRB, YLT, ABP) because they recognize that the LXX uses of it (shepherd) and the illogical conclusions related to the inheritance if it means "destory"
Psa 2:9 (LXX) You shall tend them with a rod?ofiron; as?vessels of a potter?you shall break them.?
The New Testament translation ALL USE the word "shepherd" (poimaino) in REV 2:27 which means to "tend, feed, or rule". It NEVER MEANS to destroy.
For example:
Matt 2:6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are not the least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you shall come a Ruler who will shepherd My people Israel.' "
Did Micah mean Jesus would destroy God's people, Israel? No!
John 21:16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."
Did Jesus tell Peter to kill His sheep??? NO!
Acts 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Did Paul tell the Ephesian elders to kill the congregation??? No!
1 Pet 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
Did Peter tell the elders to kill their congregations??? NO!
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Is Jesus going to kill the saints after He wipes away tears from their eyes? No!
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
This corresponds to this:
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
This corresponds to this:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and
reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall
go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
So we have the first beast of Rev 13 being cast into the LOF which happens in Rev 19, the 7th trump. Daniel says "rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time." proving people do survive past the 7th trump for a period of TIME.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
This corresponds to this:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
This corresponds to this:
Rev 13:7 And
it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
This corresponds to this:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
and this:
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
This corresponds to this:
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
[/QUOTE]and there will be no extra temple ,[/QUOTE]
Irrelevant to topic.
for Jesus blood is sufficient, no further sacrifices necessary,
I already informed you that I don't believe the sacrifices ever return so why would you mention this here?
and lastly believers and unbelievers alike will rise at the end of time at the same resurrection.
There will never be an end of time because the eternity is an eternity of time, Rev 21-22.
Believers are said to rise first, 1Th_4:16, so it is false to claim believers and unbelievers rise at the same time.