Fallen Angels

[Paleouss]

Fr. Jose Antonio Fortea had this to say in his book "Interview with an Exorcist", who was appointed an exorcist but is no longer practising. I suppose he'd had enough of it. It reminds me of a comment I heard from a Presbyterian pastor who'd had a ministy working with street kids when he said "I've just seen too much of it!" (the demonic).

"Demons were not created evil. (In fact, it is impossible for God, who is Goodness itself, to create anything evil.). Remember demons are just 'bad angels'. After God created the angels, He tested their fidelity to Him before admitting them to the Beatific Vision, the sight of his very essence. For purely spiritual beings, this "seeing" of God's essence would be a purely intellectual vision. Some angels obeyed the divine test; others did not. Those who disobeyed were irreversibly transformed into demons and cast out of heaven.

It may seem surprising that some angels would choose to hate God. But we need to understand that those who rebelled saw God no longer as a good - as the Good - but as the oppressor of their freedom. Hate was born as their wills resisted the call of God and held fast to the decision to leave the father's house.

Thank you for your contribution, Bob.


Peace be with you.

 

[Paleouss]

I agree with neither.

Fair enough.

Angels are still angels. Satan is still around.

True

He didn't change into some sort of demonic spirit, so why would we believe that any others did?

Since you seem to attempt to make what I highlighted above as an arguement to convince. I thought I might give my two cents on this statement.

I would agree with the statement that Satan or angels didn't "turn into spirits". But is it the case that Satan and angels were always considered spirits? If we look in the Bible we see in Hebrews 1:13-14 that the Scripture describes angels as "ministering spirits". So this is one clear case that the Bible considers the term 'angel' as being synonymous with the term 'spirit'. Its not suggesting that angels "turned into spirits". Its saying that angels are spirits. Right from the get go. No changing, because they always were considered spirits.

In regard to Satan being a spirit, not that he turned into a spirit but he is, was, and always will be an angel...which is synonymous with the term spirit. In Mattew 12:26 Satan is reffered to as Beelzebub, a demon name, and as the "ruler of the demons". We know this is Satan because in response to the Beelzebub name being braught up, Jesus replies, “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself” (Matt 12:26). Further, in Eph 2:2 Satan is referred to as "the spirit".

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

My personal belief is that demonic spirits are bodiless spirits that once had a body of some sort. I'm a GAP theory believer, so I tend to think that they were part of what earth used to be before satan's war in heaven and subsequent fall from it.

This is very interesting. I have never heard this view before. I hope you don't mind me asking questions about it.

1) If demonic spirits are bodiless spirits that once had a body of some sort...then what creatures body was it previously? From what little you wrote they are creatures from the GAP. So does that not eliminate human bodies? And if they are not human bodies because they are before Adam (I'm assuming), then are they angel bodies?

2) If they are not human bodies or angel bodies, who's bodies are we speaking about?

That's my personal belief on it.

Thank you for your information.



Peace be with you my brother

 

[ARBITER01]

Since you seem to attempt to make what I highlighted above as an arguement to convince. I thought I might give my two cents on this statement.

I would agree with the statement that Satan or angels didn't "turn into spirits". But is it the case that Satan and angels were always considered spirits? If we look in the Bible we see in Hebrews 1:13-14 that the Scripture describes angels as "ministering spirits". So this is one clear case that the Bible considers the term 'angel' as being synonymous with the term 'spirit'. Its not suggesting that angels "turned into spirits". Its saying that angels are spirits. Right from the get go. No changing, because they always were considered spirits.

In regard to Satan being a spirit, not that he turned into a spirit but he is, was, and always will be an angel...which is synonymous with the term spirit. In Mattew 12:26 Satan is reffered to as Beelzebub, a demon name, and as the "ruler of the demons". We know this is Satan because in response to the Beelzebub name being braught up, Jesus replies, “If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself” (Matt 12:26). Further, in Eph 2:2 Satan is referred to as "the spirit".

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

Yes, satan and angels in general are always considered spirits since they are from heaven. They only have a spiritual body, not a fleshly one like ours.

Evil spirits can be a general term in scripture for any of the fallen angels and demonic spirits here on earth.

In my opinion, the two are separate groups. A spirit of fear is a demonic spirit, not a fallen angel. Demonic spirits are the ground forces for satan whereas the fallen angels are more heaven bound, of much greater intelligence, and rule over certain territories/cities. They do their activities from a distance in the sky whereas the demonics spirits are up close, trying to oppress and infiltrate fallen man to act out their personalities and desires.

This is very interesting. I have never heard this view before. I hope you don't mind me asking questions about it.

1) If demonic spirits are bodiless spirits that once had a body of some sort...then what creatures body was it previously? From what little you wrote they are creatures from the GAP. So does that not eliminate human bodies? And if they are not human bodies because they are before Adam (I'm assuming), then are they angel bodies?

Again, it is a personal opinion that doesn't have much support in scripture. Adam and Eve were given dominion over earth and told to subdue it. From what? That's a clue pointing to something being here already. I do know that it includes satan and the angels that fell with him, but I think these things were already on earth also.

Demons always seek a body from what scripture points out. They are not always like the huge amount in the demoniac that considered themselves a stronghold called legion, most are following a larger/stronger single demon that is the actual stronghold.

What they were before the earth was destroyed and remade, I have no clue, but again it is my personal opinion on them. I will say that The Holy Spirit has been pointing these things out to me for quite some time, but I have no real scripture references to point to since scripture is mostly silent on earth's past.

2) If they are not human bodies or angel bodies, who's bodies are we speaking about?

On that I just don't know, only that they seek a body in scripture that somewhat gives them rest. That, in my opinion, leads me to believe they had some sort of body before that they lost when satan was thrown out. In scripture, it lends to the belief that satan might have had some sort of kingdom on earth before that was destroyed, and maybe they were apart of that kingdom.

Again, I don't claim to have definitive proof on this since scripture is not forthcoming on any real details on earth's past.

 

[Paleouss]

In my opinion, the two are separate groups. A spirit of fear is a demonic spirit, not a fallen angel. Demonic spirits are the ground forces for satan whereas the fallen angels are more heaven bound and rule over certain territories/cities. They do their activities from a distance in the sky whereas the demonics spirits are up close, trying to oppress and infiltrate fallen man to act out their personalities and desires.

ARBITER01, thank you very much for presenting your view.

I must say that one cannot argue against 'opinion'. But then again, it is near impossible to persuade someone else from just 'opinion' also.

Two points I would like to present in our sharing of opinions.

(1) There is evidence in the Bible that God made the heaven(s), plural. Those are the first, second, third heavens. The first heaven is known by many to be the "air" (Gen 6:7, Isa 55:10, Matt 6:26). Additionally, Satan is described as being the "prince of the power of the air" (Eph 2:2). The third heaven in this concept is known as the heaven of heavens (Deu 10:14, 1King 8:27), the abode of God.

(2) A fallen angel, who is descibed in the Bible as "a spirit", not just being able to be in spiritual form but is said to be 'a spirit' (Heb 1:13-14), can reside in very close proximity to the earth if the first heaven is in fact the 'air'. In other words, the fallen angel, who is a spirit, can be right next to you (literally) and still be in 'heaven'.

Logic would seem to tell me that if a fallen angel, who is a spirit (Heb 1:13-14), can be right next to mankind to influence them...why would they choose to stay in the sky, father away?

(3) Since the Bible uses the terms angel, spirit, and demon as synonymous and angels can still be cosidered 'in heaven' (first heaven) and 'on earth' at the same time then I don't see a reason to speculate on what evil sprits and demons are here on earth. The Bible gives sufficient clues, in my estimation, to conlude they are fallen angels that are just being referred to as spirits and demons.

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

It seems to me that one could hold the above, and still hold the GAP theory and have less speculation.

Demons always seek a body from what scripture points out.

You might be confusing the book of Enoch with the Bible here. Not that we cant point to evil spirits and demons being reported as being in bodies (Matt 8:28-34, Mark 1:23, Mark 7:26, Acts 19:13 to name a few). But I am unaware of any scripture that says "demons always seek a body". Although I will conceed that Satan and his following do seek to influence mankind continually, seeking someone to devour (1pet 5:8) . We just seem to disagree on who those forces are.

I hope God blesses your day brother
Peace be with you

 

[ARBITER01]

ARBITER01, thank you very much for presenting your view.

I must say that one cannot argue against 'opinion'. But then again, it is near impossible to persuade someone else from just 'opinion' also.

Two points I would like to present in our sharing of opinions.

(1) There is evidence in the Bible that God made the heaven(s), plural. Those are the first, second, third heavens. The first heaven is known by many to be the "air" (Gen 6:7, Isa 55:10, Matt 6:26). Additionally, Satan is described as being the "prince of the power of the air" (Eph 2:2). The third heaven in this concept is known as the heaven of heavens (Deu 10:14, 1King 8:27), the abode of God.

Correct. I also espouse this view.

(2) A fallen angel, who is descibed in the Bible as "a spirit", not just being able to be in spiritual form but is said to be 'a spirit' (Heb 1:13-14), can reside in very close proximity to the earth if the first heaven is in fact the 'air'. In other words, the fallen angel, who is a spirit, can be right next to you (literally) and still be in 'heaven'.

Logic would seem to tell me that if a fallen angel, who is a spirit (Heb 1:13-14), can be right next to mankind to influence them...why would they choose to stay in the sky, father away?

Why is satan titled the prince of the power of "the air" instead of the earth?

Since satan is the prince of the power of "the air," then he must have subjects to rule over in that particular first heaven, hence why I say that fallen angels are not really earth bound like demonic spirits are. They can involve themselves more directly with man at times to influence outcomes, but I think it is a matter of pride. Fallen angels consider themselves above mankind, before us, even better than we are, so they only mix with us for certain situations and outcomes that satan wants.

On a personal experience note,... I have seen one of these things before. They can be associated with people involved in satanism, which is where I seen one of them.

(3) Since the Bible uses the terms angel, spirit, and demon as synonymous and angels can still be cosidered 'in heaven' (first heaven) and 'on earth' at the same time then I don't see a reason to speculate on what evil sprits and demons are here on earth. The Bible gives sufficient clues, in my estimation, to conlude they are fallen angels that are just being referred to as spirits and demons.

angels = spirits&demons (Heb 1:13-14,Matt 12:24-26,Eph 2:2,Psa 104:4,Num 27:16)
demons = spirits (Luke 10:17-20, Matt 8:16, Luke 9:39-42)
angels = spirits & demons

I don't combine the designations. I think they are identified separate in our bibles for a reason. Demons are demons and fallen angels are fallen angels. Both can be evil spirits in a generalized term since they are not with GOD, but neither designation is interchangeable.

You might be confusing the book of Enoch with the Bible here. Not that we cant point to evil spirits and demons being reported as being in bodies (Matt 8:28-34, Mark 1:23, Mark 7:26, Acts 19:13 to name a few). But I am unaware of any scripture that says "demons always seek a body". Although I will conceed that Satan and his following do seek to influence mankind continually, seeking someone to devour (1pet 5:8) . We just seem to disagree on who those forces are.

Not at all,....

Mat 12:43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.

Jesus described the actions of demons when they are cast out of the unregenerate. They have no body and no rest, hence why they seek to return, and by doing so, they make things even worse for the person. But they seek to dwell in a body.

 

[Paleouss]

Since satan is the prince of the power of "the air," then he must have subjects to rule over in that particular first heaven, hence why I say that fallen angels are not really earth bound like demonic spirits are.

I guess I didn't get across that the "air" seems to be literally on earth. But we can agee to disagree.

On a personal experience note,... I have seen one of these things before. They can be associated with people involved in satanism, which is where I seen one of them.

I don't wish that on anyone.

I don't combine the designations. I think they are identified separate in our bibles for a reason. Demons are demons and fallen angels are fallen angels. Both can be evil spirits in a generalized term since they are not with GOD, but neither designation is interchangeable.

Got it. You are saying
Angels = spirits (I agree)
demons = spirits (I agree)
Angels ≠ demons (we will have to just agree to disagree based on Matt 12:24-26 & Rev 12:4)

Not at all,....

Mat 12:43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.

Well, to be technical.
You said, "Demons always seek a body from what scripture points out."
Then I said, "But I am unaware of any scripture that says "demons always seek a body"

Now that I know you equate

'demons' (you) = 'unclean spirits' (Matt 12:43)
'body' (you) = 'the man' (Matt 12:43)
'always seeks' (you) = 'seeking rest' (Matt 12:43)

I see the verse in which you had referred. As I said, Satan and his following do seek to influence mankind continually, seeking someone to devour (1pet 5:8). We just don't agree on who demons are.

Thank you for your insights ARBITER01.

May God do a fruitful work through you.

 

[ARBITER01]

I guess I didn't get across that the "air" seems to be literally on earth. But we can agree to disagree.

I don't view the term heaven as being upon earth, but yes we can agree to disagree.

Got it. You are saying
Angels = spirits (I agree)
demons = spirits (I agree)
Angels ≠ demons (we will have to just agree to disagree based on Matt 12:24-26 & Rev 12:4)

Well, to be technical.
You said, "Demons always seek a body from what scripture points out."
Then I said, "But I am unaware of any scripture that says "demons always seek a body"

Now that I know you equate

'demons' (you) = 'unclean spirits' (Matt 12:43)
'body' (you) = 'the man' (Matt 12:43)
'always seeks' (you) = 'seeking rest' (Matt 12:43)

I see the verse in which you had referred. As I said, Satan and his following do seek to influence mankind continually, seeking someone to devour (1pet 5:8). We just don't agree on who demons are.

Well, in some respects, our learning must also include experience to understand scripture more. I can't read a book on rocket science and then conclude that I am a professional at it and begin to teach others,..... we must have those experiences from GOD that help shape our views and understandings of The Holy Spirit's writings.

For instance, I've been with The Lord for over 30 years now, and during that time I've bumped heads with at least 6 different people who were involved in witchcraft and satanism. People who were good at it and somewhat deadly at what they were doing. Those experiences over the years has helped shape my understandings of scripture on such a subject we are talking about.

I can't promote experience over scripture, but experience is to be involved in our learning of it,...

Heb 5:13 For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

On such a subject, I may have more experience on it with a deeper understanding of how satan operates his kingdom down here, and some of the particulars that we may have disagreement over, but I don't throw that in your face, just that I try to provide what truth that I can to convince and persuade if possible. You can very well have great experience in areas that GOD doesn't use me in, and with that a better understanding of such things talked about in scripture.

But with that, it's been nice conversing with you, take care.