Exodus and Egyptian Chronology

[SuperCow]

Unfortunately you can NOT rely on secular archaeological dates as reliable for anything. They are only best guesses from people putting together a house of cards. Everything is just based on supposed synchronisms between various cultures. David Rohl has shown how unreliable and wobbly the "industry" of modern archaeology is. Choosing to ignore Biblical information as secondary to supposed modern experts only leads to a wild goose chase of putting square pegs into round holes.

I partially agree. Dates are fairly reliable for civilizations that keep accurate detailed records. The farther back you go, the less reliable archaeological dates generally become; however, they have relative importance. If you ignore them entirely, you can miss interpretations of the Biblical historical record. As an example, the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 587 BC (or 586) according to every secular source. Jehovah's Witnesses claim it is 607 BC due to a rigid doctrinal position regarding the 70 years of captivity. (and some 19th century religious historians made the same error)

The Bible is not wrong, but the interpretation was wrong. And most religious historians use this event as an anchor point for the relative dating of everything in the Bible that precedes it. So occasionally the archaeological dates can be referenced to refine certain aspects of Biblical dating, even if, as you say, an error in the house of cards for a recent date throws off every date before it, if you 100% rely on it.

 

[SuperCow]

This is consistent with my previous message. I did not write anything contradictory to this view. Why would you think otherwise?

My intent was not to say you wrote anything contradictory, but that the two sites contradicted each other, and others exist that contradict both.

Biblical chronology gives a date around 1921 BC for Abraham's entry into Canaan. This would be in the MBA. So, the quotation above is not relevant to our discussion. The EBA is too early for Abraham's migration. Yes, there was destruction at the end of the EBA. But why should we be concerned with the EBA and the destruction that followed it? The biblical chronology suggests a date around 2348 BC for the Flood, which would be near the end of the EBA. But we are not discussing the Flood here.

Yes, the dates in that quote are much too early from a biblical perspective. All they serve to do is confirm @EclipseEventSigns view that they are both unreliable. The flood is relevant though, as it represents the beginning of recorded history as the flood probably destroyed or made indecipherable anything literary before it.

Destruction took place not only at the end of the EBA but also at the end of the MBA. In my previous message, I mentioned the Minoan Eruption. Could the Exodus plagues have been correlated with the Minoan Eruption?

If the Minoan eruption caused the 10 plagues, then was any of it truly miraculous? I would still answer yes, as Moses was able to predict the future, but it wouldn't have been the full-blown spectacle that God said he was preparing for the nations. Still, anything is possible.

Even Ussher's chronology, which tends to have earlier dates than other chronologies, has David's accession in 1048 BC. This is in the Iron Age, for sure. There is no denying that the Philistine Pentapolis was established in David's time. BTW, this is the same chronology I used for the dates of the Flood and Abraham's migration mentioned above. Shishak ruled between 945 and 924 BC.

I don't have a fixed theory to defend. I seek philia sophia. Let's investigate the irreconcilable problems that may arise.

The "irreconcilable" problems (which are only irreconcilable if we rely on secular dating) are the following:

1.) There is only 900 years between the flood and the exodus. Most authorities have the EBA alone lasting 1500 years.
2.) There is only 900 years from the exodus to the destruction of Jerusalem. By most authorities, we are still in the bronze age at this point.

So by anyone's metric, the numbers have to be compressed somehow. (Or the Bible's interpretation expanded, and here we have fewer options, or zero if you regard your seminary school opinions as infallible.)

The problems almost entirely stem from the interpretation of the Egyptian dynasties, originating from Manetho. Since that history is the least secure, it should also be the most suspect. Regarding the conquest of Canaan, most historians doubt this even happened. The primary opinion seems to be that Israel emerged from a Canaanite tribe and manufactured most of its historical origins during Babylonian captivity. Much of the problem here I think is that a lot of what they think is Canaanite, is actually Israel during the judges or early monarchy period. Many of them don't trust anything before the time of Omri/Ahab roughly.

In some sense, the Philistines came from Egypt:

"In the 12th century B.C.E., during the reign of Ramesses III, a confederation of tribes from the “islands” of the “northern countries” attacked Egypt—several times, both on sea and land. . . . Egypt defeated the confederation, as recorded on one of the temple walls at Medinet Habu. . . . After being defeated, some of these tribes settled on the southern coast of Canaan—in what would become the land of the Philistines."

Who Were the Philistines, and Where Did They Come From?

The Philistines are best known from the Bible as the Israelites’ enemies, but they were much more than that.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org

I have no real argument to this. I was merely pointing out that Philistines were in the area long before the iron age.

 

[FaithT]

All of This is getting way over my head. Bottom line, is the Bible accurate?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I partially agree. Dates are fairly reliable for civilizations that keep accurate detailed records. The farther back you go, the less reliable archaeological dates generally become; however, they have relative importance. If you ignore them entirely, you can miss interpretations of the Biblical historical record. As an example, the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 587 BC (or 586) according to every secular source. Jehovah's Witnesses claim it is 607 BC due to a rigid doctrinal position regarding the 70 years of captivity. (and some 19th century religious historians made the same error)

The Bible is not wrong, but the interpretation was wrong. And most religious historians use this event as an anchor point for the relative dating of everything in the Bible that precedes it. So occasionally the archaeological dates can be referenced to refine certain aspects of Biblical dating, even if, as you say, an error in the house of cards for a recent date throws off every date before it, if you 100% rely on it.

There are certain major events which can be known with much certainty. The destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon is one such date. The summer of 586 BC has solid evidence to make it reliable. Especially in recent years when the archaeomagnetic dating of a site in the City of David (Jerusalem) confirms the 586 BC date. The Earth’s magnetic field in Jerusalem during the Babylonian destruction: A unique reference for field behavior and an anchor for archaeomagnetic dating

But there is one event that leads to wrong dates if that is not taken into account. Especially if the eclipse record is being used to synchronize historical records. That event is the change of the year which most likely happened in 709 BC. This is a very controversial statement as no secular historian would take this seriously. And most Christian scholars aren't prepared to really research it. The miraculous sign which God gave King Hezekiah (when the shadow moved backwards on the "sun dial") changed the 360 day year to our modern 365.25 day year. The lunar cycle also was modified at this point. There are records of many cultures around the world which had to change their calendar to incorporate 5 additional days around this time. Some of this is discussed in alBiruni's work written around 1000 AD. He lived in the Persian area and most likely still had access to historical documents which have not survived to our modern period. Even in the Biblical narrative it says that an entourage from Babylon unexpectedly visited King Hezekiah shortly afterward to investigate what had happened.

I have verified that this apparent change is very possible using Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion and these ratios could not have been any other way. This being the case, if one tried to use calendars based on 365.25 days previous to 709 BC, exact dates would be inaccurate. Or trying to use eclipse tables calculated with modern astrophysics would not match with recorded eclipses in historical documents - the ones historians attempt to use to synchronize their timelines. One of my theories is that the fire of the massive library in Alexandria destroyed much recorded evidence of this earth changing event.

 

[Andrewn]

There is only 900 years between the flood and the exodus.

This is based on the literal reading of the Bible.

There is only 900 years from the exodus to the destruction of Jerusalem. By most authorities, we are still in the bronze age at this point.

By "most authorities," you mean only yourself . I'm not aware of anyone else who believes the Exodus took place at the end of EBA / beginning of MBA.

or zero if you regard your seminary school opinions as infallible.

I'm open to all suggestions with at least some regard to the Bible and archeological data. I do not regard any opinions to be infallible. But let's not get fixated on the Flood, it is a bag of worms.

Regarding the conquest of Canaan, most historians doubt this even happened. The primary opinion seems to be that Israel emerged from a Canaanite tribe and manufactured most of its historical origins during Babylonian captivity.

The question is whether there are any historical events underlying the biblical account.

Much of the problem here I think is that a lot of what they think is Canaanite, is actually Israel during the judges or early monarchy period. Many of them don't trust anything before the time of Omri/Ahab roughly.

"William F. Albright, the leading biblical archaeologist of the mid-20th century, proposed a date of around 1250–1200 BCE, but his so-called "Israelite" markers (four-roomed houses, collar-rimmed jars, etc.) are continuations of Canaanite culture."

Sources and parallels of the Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Andrewn]

All of This is getting way over my head. Bottom line, is the Bible accurate?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,17 so that the person of God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I'm open to all suggestions with at least some regard to the Bible and archeological data. I do not regard any opinions to be infallible. But let's not get fixated on the Flood, it is a bag of worms.

Actually, it would seem you are not open. Since you stated the Bible has been modified in regards to the 450 years stated by Paul, I showed how that is NOT the case. I used the dates recorded within the Bible itself. It is very clear to see. Yet, you have not acknowledged this evidence.

 

[SuperCow]

All of This is getting way over my head. Bottom line, is the Bible accurate?

The answer is yes, but there just happens to be a lot of different opinions on how to interpret the data.

 

[SuperCow]

This is based on the literal reading of the Bible.

In the absence of a solid reason, how else would you read it?

By "most authorities," you mean only yourself . I'm not aware of anyone else who believes the Exodus took place at the end of EBA / beginning of MBA.

Then I will enlighten you with a few. I don't know any of their credentials. The list is just to prove to you they exist:

These authors claim the exodus precedes the first intermediate period (6th dynasty Pharaohs)

The Riddle of the Exodus - James D. Long - 2002
https://www.amazon.com/Riddle-Exodus-Startling-Parallels-Archaeological-ebook/dp/B0041VYJSI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1XDLITCQ4WH7X&keywords=the+riddle+of+the+exodus&qid=1683749936&sprefix=the+riddle+of+the+exodus,aps,133&sr=8-1

Gerald E. Aardsma, Ph.D, Institution for Creation Research - 1994
https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=icc_proceedings

Who Was the Pharaoh of the Exodus? - Jeff Williams - 1994
https://www.amazon.com/Who-Pharaoh-Exodus-Jeff-Williams/dp/0882904884/ref=sr_1_1?crid=7O8AK3TN6DDK&keywords=jeff+williams+who+was+the+pharaoh+of+the+exodus&qid=1683749689&sprefix=jeff+williams+who+was+the+pharoah+of+the+exodus,aps,132&sr=8-1

Sefer Ha-Yashar - Jewish Madrash - Original Date unknown
The Book of Jasher

These authors claim the exodus precedes the second intermediate period (12th dynasty Pharaohs) with the caveat that they believe the first and second intermediate periods are the same

Unwrapping the Pharaohs - David Down & Dr. John Ashton - 2006
https://www.amazon.com/Unwrapping-Pharaohs-Egyptian-Archaeology-Confirms/dp/B00CF6F4W6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2GW8VF3J8A3XO&keywords=Unwrapping+the+Pharaohs&qid=1683750170&sprefix=unwrapping+the+pharaohs,aps,139&sr=8-1

The Exodus Problem and its Ramifications - Donovan A. Courville - 1971
https://www.amazon.com/Exodus-problem-Its-Ramifications-Volumes/dp/B000IVZXTE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2V4FISSTKOK28&keywords=Donovan+Courville&qid=1683750252&sprefix=donovan+courville,aps,134&sr=8-1

I'm open to all suggestions with at least some regard to the Bible and archeological data. I do not regard any opinions to be infallible. But let's not get fixated on the Flood, it is a bag of worms.

Agreed. Any discussion about the flood should be its own thread. I only mentioned it because of the use of Iron before the flood; probably used to build the ark. (Otherwise, why would it be mentioned?)

The question is whether there are any historical events underlying the biblical account.

Whatever we come up with here is mostly conjecture on our parts.

"William F. Albright, the leading biblical archaeologist of the mid-20th century, proposed a date of around 1250–1200 BCE, but his so-called "Israelite" markers (four-roomed houses, collar-rimmed jars, etc.) are continuations of Canaanite culture."

Sources and parallels of the Exodus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Building design is hardly a definition of culture. Besides that, other than Jericho the Israelites were allowed to plunder the goods as they went.

 

[Andrewn]

Then I will enlighten you with a few. I don't know any of their credentials. The list is just to prove to you they exist:

Thank you for the effort. But the references are mostly books that I do not have access to.

Gerald E. Aardsma, Ph.D, Institution for Creation Research - 1994
https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1313&context=icc_proceedings

This article states that the Exodus could not have taken place around 1450 BC (I agree with this)and that it must have happened in 2450 BC because, around that time, there was widespread devastation in Egypt!!! No evidence from the Bible is presented. No evidence from archeology is presented. We are supposed to believe the author because he said so!!! I don't. Perhaps the devastation at that time was related to the Flood or a volcanic eruption, or an earthquake, or an epidemic, or war, etc.

First Intermediate Period of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sefer Ha-Yashar - Jewish Madrash - Original Date unknown
The Book of Jasher

The book of Jasher is known to be an unreliable forgery, and it is quite long. But I will read any particular chapter you recommend.

Building design is hardly a definition of culture. Besides that, other than Jericho the Israelites were allowed to plunder the goods as they went.

A date of the Exodus around 1210 BC has been suggested and not refuted in Dr. Aardsma's article (mentioned above). This date should be considered at least because the Israelites were involved in building Raamses and Pithom, in addition to the Iron Age evidence we previously discussed and the four-room houses in Canaan. It is also close to 430 years from Jacob's migration to Egypt.

 

[SuperCow]

Thank you for the effort. But the references are mostly books that I do not have access to.

This article states that the Exodus could not have taken place around 1450 BC (I agree with this)and that it must have happened in 2450 BC because, around that time, there was widespread devastation in Egypt!!! No evidence from the Bible is presented. No evidence from archeology is presented. We are supposed to believe the author because he said so!!! I don't. Perhaps the devastation at that time was related to the Flood or a volcanic eruption, or an earthquake, or an epidemic, or war, etc.

First Intermediate Period of Egypt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes, because that is when they believed the first Intermediate period started when he was doing his research. (Now it is 2184 BC, according to your Wikipedia link, excluding the reign of the female queen Nitocris)

If we take the Wikipedia (and its sources) as the authority, it clearly says that it is about 970 years from the beginning of the first dynasty (3150 BC) to the end of the 6th dynasty (2181 BC). the Bible says it is about 800 years from the flood to the Exodus. What period of 900 years is missing from the Bible? How do you get there without overlapping the dynasties in the Egyptian record? Iron Age or not, how do you push the Exodus into the generally accepted Iron Age timeline and still claim the Bible is a reliable authority?

The book of Jasher is known to be an unreliable forgery, and it is quite long. But I will read any particular chapter you recommend.

I think it is only a partial forgery. It has definitely been severely altered, which makes it unreliable, but some parts of it are definitely older than the 16th century source copy. A story of Abraham mirrored in the Quran for instance is 1000 years older, and others from the Genesis Rabbah which is an older Midrash.

The only relevant item from Jasher (no need for you to read it, unless you are curious why it has drawn so much attention) is that the Pharaoh of the oppression reigned for 94 years, and the following Pharaoh reigned for 4 years, co-regent for 3 of them. This matches Pepi II (Neferkare) and Merenre II (Nemtyemsaf II) and no other Pharaoh. (minus the co-regency which the king lists do not mention) No forger in his right mind would pick these reign lengths unless he was picking those two Pharaohs specifically on his own (very unlikely) or heavily plagiarizing from older writings.

A date of the Exodus around 1210 BC has been suggested and not refuted in Dr. Aardsma's article (mentioned above). This date should be considered at least because the Israelites were involved in building Raamses and Pithom, in addition to the Iron Age evidence we previously discussed and the four-room houses in Canaan. It is also close to 430 years from Jacob's migration to Egypt.

It's refuted by the Bible. There's no possible adaptation of scriptural interpretation that could place the exodus in 1210 BC. You just can't squeeze the monarchy and judges period that tightly. All the variations on the religiously calculated 1446 BC put it earlier, not 200+ years later. And Courville demonstrated that the name Rameses was in use much earlier than Rameses the Great. There's no Pharaoh from the 18th or 19th dynasty encountered anything like what is described in Exodus.

 

[Andrewn]

Yes, because that is when they believed the first Intermediate period started when he was doing his research. (Now it is 2184 BC, according to your Wikipedia link, excluding the reign of the female queen Nitocris). If we take the Wikipedia (and its sources) as the authority, it clearly says that it is about 970 years from the beginning of the first dynasty (3150 BC) to the end of the 6th dynasty (2181 BC).

It doesn't matter to me whether the end of the Old Kingdom is 2184 as Wikipedia says or 2450 as Aardsma says. It probably deteriorated gradually anyway. Why choose the end of the Old Kingdom as a date for the Exodus?

the Bible says it is about 800 years from the flood to the Exodus.

Here, you answer my question. Aardsma seems to propose 3250 BC as the date of the Flood and deduct 800 years to the Exodus. But this is based on a faulty assumption that the Flood took place in 3250 BC. The whole theory is built on a flawed premise. What is the evidence that the Flood took place in 3250?

What period of 900 years is missing from the Bible?

What period is missing from the Bible?

How do you get there without overlapping the dynasties in the Egyptian record?

It is Aardsma that brought up the Egyptian record.

pIron Age or not, how do you push the Exodus into the generally accepted Iron Age timeline and still claim the Bible is a reliable authority?

I did not propose that the exodus took place in the Iron Age but perhaps at the end of the MBA / beginning of EBA, with expulsion of the Hyksos.

The only relevant item from Jasher (no need for you to read it, unless you are curious why it has drawn so much attention) is that the Pharaoh of the oppression reigned for 94 years, and the following Pharaoh reigned for 4 years, co-regent for 3 of them. This matches Pepi II (Neferkare) and Merenre II (Nemtyemsaf II) and no other Pharaoh.

Pepi II reigned from 2284 to 2216 or 2184. This is more than 250 years after Aardsma's proposed date of the Exodus. Which chapter in Jasher has this information? How do you fit this very early date (2450 BC) with later Biblical events?

It's refuted by the Bible. There's no possible adaptation of scriptural interpretation that could place the exodus in 1210 BC. You just can't squeeze the monarchy and judges period that tightly.

W.F. Albright and other Christian scholars who proposed dates in the 1250-1200 period were not stupid. These scholars assign the period of Judges from 1200-1025 BC, in the Iron Age as the Bible suggests. OTOH, in Aardsma's theory, he would count approximately 1000 years for the Judges, half of it in the prosperous MBA and the other half in the poor LBA. How do you fit this very early date (2450 BC) with later Biblical events?

 

[SuperCow]

It doesn't matter to me whether the end of the Old Kingdom is 2184 as Wikipedia says or 2450 as Aardsma says. It probably deteriorated gradually anyway. Why choose the end of the Old Kingdom as a date for the Exodus?

I think what happened to Egypt in Exodus would have precipitated a very fast decline, not gradual at all. Its wealth was destroyed. Its military was destroyed. It's population was decimated.

Here, you answer my question. Aardsma seems to propose 3250 BC as the date of the Flood and deduct 800 years to the Exodus. But this is based on a faulty assumption that the Flood took place in 3250 BC. The whole theory is built on a flawed premise. What is the evidence that the Flood took place in 3250?

He's probably using the chronology from the Septuagint to get that year for the flood. If you do that and count the judges period as the Apostle Paul does, you get to almost exactly 3250 BC. I used to think the Septuagint chronology was the correct one at an earlier point in my life; among other reasons, the older count is easier to reconcile with Egypt's origins. From Abraham on, though, the differences are not significant to this discussion.

What period is missing from the Bible?

Assuming you are trying to apply Masoretic chronology to Egyptian chronology, then the Biblical chronology should be 800 years longer. That's the missing period I was asking you about.

I did not propose that the exodus took place in the Iron Age but perhaps at the end of the MBA / beginning of EBA, with expulsion of the Hyksos.

One of the popular hypotheses out there. (I assume you meant LBA and not EBA)

Pepi II reigned from 2284 to 2216 or 2184. This is more than 250 years after Aardsma's proposed date of the Exodus. Which chapter in Jasher has this information? How do you fit this very early date (2450 BC) with later Biblical events?

This shows you misunderstand my position. I don't place the Exodus at 2450 BC. Neither do I place it at 2184 BC. I believe the Bible chronology as it was originally intended using the literal reading of the Judges which puts the Exodus in the mid-1500s BC. Or if I could be convinced it was 1446 BC, it wouldn't change my position any. I don't care when Wikipedia says Pepi II reigned, because Wikipedia is irreconcilable with the Bible. Therefore I am not looking for secular evidence of exodus conditions happening in 1550 BC. I completely expect secular reasoning to place every event that occurred much earlier than it should be according to the Bible, up until the time of roughly king Ahab or Omni, as they are the first kings named outside of Israel in any kind of artifact.

So, for example, if want to search for evidence of what was happening in Abraham's time, and the Bible tells me he was born 1952 BC or 2052 BC (or some other variation, depending on the source), then I fully expect that I should probably be looking at what normal archaeologists think was going on in 2500-2800 BC.

W.F. Albright and other Christian scholars who proposed dates in the 1250-1200 period were not stupid. These scholars assign the period of Judges from 1200-1025 BC, in the Iron Age as the Bible suggests. OTOH, in Aardsma's theory, he would count approximately 1000 years for the Judges, half of it in the prosperous MBA and the other half in the poor LBA. How do you fit this very early date (2450 BC) with later Biblical events?

No, they are not stupid. They use very creative methods to ignore what the Bible says in its timeline, and relate it to the secular historians so they can get published outside of religious circles. But again, I don't believe that the exodus was in 2450 BC, I think that the EBA, MBA and LBA happened later (in numerical dating) than reported in the encyclopedias.

 

[Andrewn]

This shows you misunderstand my position. I don't place the Exodus at 2450 BC. Neither do I place it at 2184 BC.

I assumed that you were in agreement w/ Aardsma. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I believe the Bible chronology as it was originally intended using the literal reading of the Judges which puts the Exodus in the mid-1500s BC.

Good. We agree to this.

I completely expect secular reasoning to place every event that occurred much earlier than it should be according to the Bible,

Are you saying that the EBA and the reign of Pepi II were just before the Exodus in mid-1500s BC?

So, for example, if want to search for evidence of what was happening in Abraham's time, and the Bible tells me he was born 1952 BC or 2052 BC (or some other variation, depending on the source), then I fully expect that I should probably be looking at what normal archaeologists think was going on in 2500-2800 BC.

Do you think archeologists, historians, and astronomers who calculated the reigns of kings of Egypt and Assyria inflated the numbers? Why would they conspire to do this? Why can't the Flood of 2348 BC be an event that caused widespread devastation but did not destroy the pyramids or annihilate the entire population only in a certain area? Some time ago, there was a discussion about this topic. You may find the following thread interesting:

Was the Great Pyramid Built Before Noah's Flood?

It is generally agreed that Abraham lived around 2,000 BC (or about 4,000 years ago). Archaeologists and historians tell us that the Great Pyramid of Egypt was built around 2,500 BC (or 4,500 years ago). So the Great Pyramid was about five hundred years old when Abraham came out of the city of...

www.christianforums.com

 

[SuperCow]

I assumed that you were in agreement w/ Aardsma. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

A reference to Aardsma was merely an example of an author who believed in a First Intermediate Period Exodus, as in the context of the original question.

Are you saying that the EBA and the reign of Pepi II were just before the Exodus in mid-1500s BC?

That is basically my position, yes.

Do you think archeologists, historians, and astronomers who calculated the reigns of kings of Egypt and Assyria inflated the numbers? Why would they conspire to do this?

No, I do not believe they intentionally inflate the numbers. I think they are victims of Manetho's king list and the misunderstanding of his works. Did you know that the original calculation of the origin of Egypt based on Manetho's work was 5285 BC? Since the general consensus is now 2000 years later, I think that all these researches have been getting more accurate over the years as more information continually comes to light.

Why can't the Flood of 2348 BC be an event that caused widespread devastation but did not destroy the pyramids or annihilate the entire population only in a certain area? Some time ago, there was a discussion about this topic. You may find the following thread interesting:

Because the Bible says the origin of Egypt was Mizraim, and Mizraim was born after the flood. I don't think anyone (other than maybe the ancient aliens people on the history channel) believe that the pyramids were constructed by anyone other than Egyptians, whether the workers were hired workers or slaves. The sphinx is another story, but I'm not going to argue any of the dozens of theories around that. There's too much evidence that Egyptians were building pyramids from the 3rd to 6th dynasties, and also the 11th and 12th dynasty.

Now the other question about the flood is a different story, and I have come to some flexibility about that. If you believe the (הָאָרֶץ֒ : erets) means earth and not the entire planet crowd, then it is possible that the flood wasn't global. (And there are other things directly in the narrative that might lead you to that conclusion as well.) However, to fit the narrative it must have been:

1.) The largest flood ever experienced in the history of man.
2.) Destroyed the entire population in Noah's sphere of influence.
3.) Destroyed the nephilim. (And depending on how much if any of Enoch is true, any other abominable biological experiments)

(And remember, you called this a can of worms, so I don't know if you want to pursue this line of questioning.)

The link is interesting, but as per my reasoning above, I don't dispute the dynasties of the pyramid builders, since I place those dynasties much later in time than they do.

 

[Andrewn]

Since the general consensus is now 2000 years later, I think that all these researches have been getting more accurate over the years as more information continually comes to light.

But they are still about 650 years above your calculations? This is still a significant gap to bridge.

the ancient aliens people on the history channel

Yesterday I was talking with someone who believes this. He was the 3rd person I met that believed God and Jesus were ancient aliens. Hard to convince them otherwise. I stopped watching those ridiculous programs over ten years ago. They're creating a new challenge for Christianity.

Because the Bible says the origin of Egypt was Mizraim, and Mizraim was born after the flood.

One does not have to imagine that Egypt was empty until Mizraim and his wife settled there in 2188 BC. It is easier to think he was the father of Egypt in the sense that he was the first king of unified Egypt. "According to Byzantine chronicler George Syncellus, the Book of Sothis, attributed to Manetho, identified Mizraim with the legendary first Pharaoh Menes, who is said to have unified the Old Kingdom and built Memphis." This is the same sense in which we call the Founding Fathers of the U.S. But again, Menes/Narmer started his reign around 3150 BC, 962 years earlier than the biblical date.

There's too much evidence that Egyptians were building pyramids from the 3rd to 6th dynasties, and also the 11th and 12th dynasty.

The first pyramid was built during the reign of Djoser (2687-2613 BC). This is a whole 300 years before the Flood. One has to concede that the Egyptians were technologically advanced geniuses that early in history. The biblical Flood was in 2348 BC, according to Ussher.

Now the other question about the flood is a different story, and I have come to some flexibility about that. If you believe the (הָאָרֶץ֒ : erets) means earth and not the entire planet crowd, then it is possible that the flood wasn't global.

I agree.

And remember, you called this a can of worms, so I don't know if you want to pursue this line of questioning.

We can talk about this. Personally, I think the Flood was near the end of the Last Glacier Period, around 12,000 years ago. What's your thinking about the Flood and its dating?

 

[SuperCow]

But they are still about 650 years above your calculations? This is still a significant gap to bridge.

While I am flexible regarding the scale of the flood, I do believe that all humans were destroyed other than those on Noah's ark. (Certain portions of a book by Vine Deloris Jr. entitled "Red Earth, White Lies" leaves me open to the possibility of other survivors in the Americas, just because some of their stories of surviving the flood are entirely consistent with the behavior of God in other parts of the Bible)

That being said, the extra centuries in the Egyptian timeline don't go away whether they need to be compressed in the early periods or the later periods or both. I am in support of a combination of the assessments by David Rohl/Peter James for the 3rd Intermediate period, and Donovan Courville for the 1st & 2nd Intermediate period. (And a small expansion of the Biblical timeline via the book of Judges)

Yesterday I was talking with someone who believes this. He was the 3rd person I met that believed God and Jesus were ancient aliens. Hard to convince them otherwise. I stopped watching those ridiculous programs over ten years ago. They're creating a new challenge for Christianity.

In the strictest sense of the term, God and angels are aliens, ancient or otherwise. They just aren't in the physical sense traveling across the galaxy in some kind of technologically advanced spacecraft. In fact, people have asked me whether the potential discovery of life outside of earth would shake my faith and I tend to answer no, the Bible already says there is other intelligent life out there.

One does not have to imagine that Egypt was empty until Mizraim and his wife settled there in 2188 BC. It is easier to think he was the father of Egypt in the sense that he was the first king of unified Egypt. "According to Byzantine chronicler George Syncellus, the Book of Sothis, attributed to Manetho, identified Mizraim with the legendary first Pharaoh Menes, who is said to have unified the Old Kingdom and built Memphis." This is the same sense in which we call the Founding Fathers of the U.S. But again, Menes/Narmer started his reign around 3150 BC, 962 years earlier than the biblical date.

A prehistory in Egypt is definitely possible, but they were wiped out in the flood along with the rest of the Middle East. (At a minimum) Then it was resettled after the flood, and then probably conquered and unified after Babel by the descendants of Mizraim, and spread out into the different clans from Genesis 10:13.

The first pyramid was built during the reign of Djoser (2687-2613 BC). This is a whole 300 years before the Flood. One has to concede that the Egyptians were technologically advanced geniuses that early in history. The biblical Flood was in 2348 BC, according to Ussher.

The Mesopotamians were technologically advanced as well. And remember that the early pyramids had a lot of engineering trial and error that took some time to iron out. But that is a digression.

I think that Egypt was unified and divided many times, but the details of the early dynasties are not well known. I support the theory that at least two of the dynasties in the old kingdom are in parallel with the others, and that holds for the later dynasties as well. Which ones? I'm not sure, but the geography of Egypt and the capital cities of the dynasties gives me some educated guesses.

Dynasty 1 & 2: Thinis (Upper Egypt)
Dynasty 3 & 4: Memphis (Lower Egypt)
Dynasty 5: Elephantine (Upper Egypt)
Dynasty 6, 7, & 8: Memphis (Lower Egypt)
Dynasty 9 & 10: Herakleopolis (Lower Egypt, but fairly far south near the waterway of Joseph - Bahr Yussef)
Dynasty 11: Thebes (Upper Egypt)
Dynasty 12 & 13: Itjtawy (Lower Egypt)
Dynasty 14 & 15: Avaris (Lower Egypt)
Dynasty 16, 17, 18: Thebes (Upper Egypt)
Dynasty 19: Partly in Thebes (Upper Egypt) and partly in Pi-Ramesses (Lower Egypt)
Dynasty 20: Pi-Ramesses (Lower Egypt)

It's over 400 miles on average between the capitals in Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt. Lower Egypt is closer to most of the tribes around Canaan.

We can talk about this. Personally, I think the Flood was near the end of the Last Glacier Period, around 12,000 years ago. What's your thinking about the Flood and its dating?

I'm not sure if the archaeological evidence of the flood is disguising itself as a glacial period or not, but that is one possibility, depending on the physics causing the flood in the first place. (I am an old-earth creationist myself, which based on your comments you are probably similar; however, I don't believe in evolution. The 6000 year (or 7500 LXX) history of the Bible (other than Genesis 1) is the history of man.)

I find it curious that the ice age is not centered on the poles, but over North America. (Eastern Canada to be more specific) I also have a strong interest in a geographic feature in the Hudson Bay called the Nastapoka arc, which is near the center of the extent of the ice age in North America.

So I am not against your premise here per se, but I would question the dating of it, assuming it was the same event. Whatever caused the flood would have to be a dramatic climate event for sure, as are any ice age periods, but did they last for hundreds or thousands of years or is that just a theory? I don't have enough expertise to critique the descriptions of millions of years of geological transformations on the planet, but there are many problems accepting a 6-day creation schedule.

 

[Andrewn]

While I am flexible regarding the scale of the flood, I do believe that all humans were destroyed other than those on Noah's ark. (Certain portions of a book by Vine Deloris Jr. entitled "Red Earth, White Lies" leaves me open to the possibility of other survivors in the Americas,

Do you think everyone in Africa, Asia, and Europe died (except the 8 people in the Ark)? If so, then the end of the Glacier Period does not work because the destruction was not complete.

That being said, the extra centuries in the Egyptian timeline don't go away whether they need to be compressed in the early periods or the later periods or both. I am in support of a combination of the assessments by David Rohl/Peter James for the 3rd Intermediate period, and Donovan Courville for the 1st & 2nd Intermediate period.

Your list of Egyptian dynasties and their capital cities is interesting. Do you propose that the northern and southern dynasties might have overlapped? IOW, Egypt existed as two separate countries for most of its ancient history?

And a small expansion of the Biblical timeline via the book of Judges

People have also proposed gaps in the biblical lineage of Adam, but this would extend the period before the Flood, not the period after the Flood that we're discussing.

In the strictest sense of the term, God and angels are aliens, ancient or otherwise. They just aren't in the physical sense traveling across the galaxy in some kind of technologically advanced spacecraft. In fact, people have asked me whether the potential discovery of life outside of earth would shake my faith and I tend to answer no, the Bible already says there is other intelligent life out there.

I agree. Unfortunately, this is not how my three friends see it.

A prehistory in Egypt is definitely possible, but they were wiped out in the flood along with the rest of the Middle East. (At a minimum) Then it was resettled after the flood, and then probably conquered and unified after Babel by the descendants of Mizraim, and spread out into the different clans from Genesis 10:13.

I cannot imagine a literal scenario of the Flood like this.

The Mesopotamians were technologically advanced as well.

I agree.

I find it curious that the ice age is not centered on the poles, but over North America. (Eastern Canada to be more specific) I also have a strong interest in a geographic feature in the Hudson Bay called the Nastapoka arc, which is near the center of the extent of the ice age in North America.

I'm not familiar w/ this evidence and am unsure how it would affect the biblical Flood.

I don't have enough expertise to critique the descriptions of millions of years of geological transformations on the planet, but there are many problems accepting a 6-day creation schedule.

I am an old-earth creationist, also. I believe in evolution, but God directs everything.

 

[SuperCow]

Do you think everyone in Africa, Asia, and Europe died (except the 8 people in the Ark)? If so, then the end of the Glacier Period does not work because the destruction was not complete.

I don't see how to read the text any other way. However, this is possible in the sense that most people in this time period lived at low elevations near to rivers, seas and oceans. The largest death toll in modern times due to a tsunami was in Indonesia and killed 225,000 people. Then it rained for 40 days (Genesis 7:12) creating possible flash floods in many areas. Then if anyone survived that, they might have starved to death as the flooding continued for 150 days. (Genesis 7:24) And it was sometime after that before Noah could leave the ark.

Your list of Egyptian dynasties and their capital cities is interesting. Do you propose that the northern and southern dynasties might have overlapped? IOW, Egypt existed as two separate countries for most of its ancient history?

In the absence of more detailed evidence, that is the most probable scenario. Very early periods of history would have a very difficult time of controlling that large of a territory without loyal vassals governing the area. These vassals occasionally decide they would like the complete power themselves. Even so, they are likely to make monuments for themselves and pass on their title to their offspring and if they rebel at some point, then they will likely justify their position with their own king lists. That is why there are a dozen or so king lists, and some kings are missing from them. (Not considered legitimate heirs, etc.)

People have also proposed gaps in the biblical lineage of Adam, but this would extend the period before the Flood, not the period after the Flood that we're discussing.

They also propose alternative meanings to the lifespans as well rather than accept degradation in either humans or the environment after the flood.

I'm not familiar w/ this evidence and am unsure how it would affect the biblical Flood.

Exhibit #1. Note that the ice age covers all of Canada and part the eastern USA (down to about 39 degrees N)
https://www.kgs.ku.edu/Publications/PIC/28figures/figure_1.jpg

Exhibit #2. Here is the extent in Europe. The furthest southward extent is in Northern Germany or Poland at roughly 50 degrees N.
Weichselian glaciation - Wikipedia

It's virtually non-existent in eastern Russia below 65 degrees N, so it's hard to get an ice age map of Asia, but the worldwide map gives you the idea.
https://www.climate.gov/media/11951

This really only is significant if you believe in a catastrophism model of a comet impact as a catalyst for the flood.

I am an old-earth creationist, also. I believe in evolution, but God directs everything.

Another term for that is "theistic evolutionist".

 

[Andrewn]

I don't see how to read the text any other way. . . . Then it rained for 40 days (Genesis 7:12) creating possible flash floods in many areas. Then if anyone survived that, they might have starved to death as the flooding continued for 150 days. (Genesis 7:24) And it was sometime after that before Noah could leave the ark.

Because of the similarities w/ the Epic of Gilgamesh and the mention of Mount Ararat, it has been suggested that the Flood affected mainly Mesopotamia. Interestingly, Gilgamesh lived between c. 2900 – 2350 BC, and the biblical Flood is dated 2348 BC.

In the absence of more detailed evidence, that is the most probable scenario. Very early periods of history would have a very difficult time of controlling that large of a territory without loyal vassals governing the area. These vassals occasionally decide they would like the complete power themselves. Even so, they are likely to make monuments for themselves and pass on their title to their offspring and if they rebel at some point, then they will likely justify their position with their own king lists. That is why there are a dozen or so king lists, and some kings are missing from them. (Not considered legitimate heirs, etc.)

I will accept the scholarly consensus until they change their views . But your theory has merit.

Exhibit #1. Note that the ice age covers all of Canada and part the eastern USA (down to about 39 degrees N)
https://www.kgs.ku.edu/Publications/PIC/28figures/figure_1.jpg

Exhibit #2. Here is the extent in Europe. The furthest southward extent is in Northern Germany or Poland at roughly 50 degrees N.
Weichselian glaciation - Wikipedia

It's virtually non-existent in eastern Russia below 65 degrees N, so it's hard to get an ice age map of Asia, but the worldwide map gives you the idea.
https://www.climate.gov/media/11951

If, in the Last Glacial Period, ice sheets covered the northern parts of North America, Europe, and Asia, then subsequent flooding in the early Holocene Age did not affect the Middle East as much. This is actually the case:

Holocene - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This really only is significant if you believe in a catastrophism model of a comet impact as a catalyst for the flood.

This is possible, but the Flood will still have to be around 2348 BC, according to the Bible, which means that it has to be local in Mesopotamia as it did not destroy the pyramids of Egypt. The only way around this is your method of reducing Egyptian chronology or suggesting a wide gap in the biblical record between the Flood and Abraham. Remember that when Abraham went to Egypt, it was fully civilized and prosperous. It could not have been established by Mizraim and his wife a mere 3 generations before Abraham.

Another term for that is "theistic evolutionist".

Exactly.