EnemyPartyII is going to renounce her homosexuality

[artybloke]

the Bible is the inspired word of God,

No it isn't. It's a book of writing by people inspired by the Word of God (Jesus.)

It's about time for the church to get out of peoples' bedrooms.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To artybloke,

the Bible is the inspired word of God,
No it isn't. It's a book of writing by people inspired by the Word of God (Jesus.)

Not quite, it contains the words and teachings of Jesus Himself merely recorded by the writers. One can say the Bible is the word of God.

It's about time for the church to get out of peoples' bedrooms.

its the other way round, its about time peoples sinful antics were got out of the church.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I don't think anyone is going to convince you, OP, because by your own words you make it clear that you're not willing to be convinced. You have instigated a false dichotomy between "human author's words" and "God's words" -- the Bible is the inspired word of God, thus God is claimed as the author, because the Holy Spirit inspired the human authors to write what they did. Similarly, prophets throughout history have spoken for God -- that they are the ones speaking, and not God, in no way detracts from the fact that it is God's message, God's word.

That being said, the Bible is not "some 2000 year old document written by patriarchal men", but a living document interpreted today by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is particularly present in the Catholic Church, which states in no uncertain terms that homosexuality is not a sin -- being tempted is not itself sinful -- but that homosexual actions (intercourse etc.) are. Likewise, the temptation itself is disordered, like alcoholism or any other temptation to sin, but it is no fault of the individual that they are so tempted.

However, it appears you have locked yourself in the box of "my translation of the Bible is my authority and my authority alone," which is a rather terrible prison; thus, you will likely reject that the Holy Spirit is present in the Catholic Church, and thus reject the Catholic Church's teachings. (Also, since the Church is a primary source of communication with the Holy Spirit, it is possible that you could be attempting to interpret the Bible without the Holy Spirit, which necessarily leads to failure.) It is very sad to me, just as when I see Christians who insist that "the earth is only six thousand years old" because of that prison, "science is wrong because what I think about the Bible I'm holding to be right," etc ... (In reality, the same God who gives us religion and faith also gives us science and reason, and God does not contradict himself.)

The Church also has much to say about marriage, and God's design for humans to be sexually complementary to each other -- it takes a man to complete a woman, etc. All of that said, I don't think it has ever said that any relationship is sinful: I have never heard that living chastely with your same-sex lover is wrong. Indeed, I think there is Biblical evidence for creating a covenant before God regarding your relationship; see David and Jonathan in the Old Testament. However, including that covenant, I have seen no Christian basis for homosexual actions, i.e. sex between the couple. (Likewise, that covenant between David and Jonathan is never referred to as 'marriage'.)

I hope some of this post has helped.

Hey, I'm willing to be convinced, if you can meet either or both of my two requirements. Do you honestly think either of them are unreasonable?

 

[artybloke]

Not quite, it contains the words and teachings of Jesus Himself merely recorded by the writers.

Well, that takes care of the Gospels, at least those bits that are actually direct quotes from Jesus. Always supposing that they remembered it right, and didn't put words in his mouth.

But Paul wasn't quoting Jesus, and neither were the scribes that wrote Leviticus.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

It is very sad to me, just as when I see Christians who insist that "the earth is only six thousand years old" because of that prison, "science is wrong because what I think about the Bible I'm holding to be right," etc ... (In reality, the same God who gives us religion and faith also gives us science and reason, and God does not contradict himself.)

That particular prison has driven me, at times, to actual, real life tears.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

That particular prison has driven me, at times, to actual, real life tears.

Well, as I've said, it's the same prison you seem to be in -- if you are claiming that your reading is right, disregarding what the Church teaches, etc.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

Hey, I'm willing to be convinced, if you can meet either or both of my two requirements. Do you honestly think either of them are unreasonable?

Both requirements have already been met, although your language is ambiguous: Homosexuality is a disorder, not a sin, and it is homosexual actions that are sinful.

The argument is already out there; as I've said, you're not willing to listen -- else you don't yet understand.

There are numerous sources out there; right now I'm reading a book by Christopher West about marriage & sex, where he explicates writings of Pope John Paul II. If you want something to read now, although it may be a little difficult to understand, see http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm ... the Catechism is really meant for teachers, not for students, but it's better than nothing for the time being. From that link:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

I have compiled a bit more of the Catechism, giving a fuller sense of what the Church says involving gays, at http://www.danielbridges.info/pages/biblepres.shtml#gaydiscrim

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I don't think I ever said homosexuality is a disorder, did I?

 

[AetheriusLamia]

I think you might have misread what I wrote. I'm saying that you've said that someone has to come up with an argument that "homosexuality is sinful" when "homosexuality" is not sinful. (I said after the colon what it was -- "inherently disordered" to quote the Catechism again. You make me wonder how carefully you've read any of my posts.)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I think you might have misread what I wrote. I'm saying that you've said that someone has to come up with an argument that "homosexuality is sinful" when "homosexuality" is not sinful. (I said after the colon what it was -- "inherently disordered" to quote the Catechism again. You make me wonder how carefully you've read any of my posts.)

although your language is ambiguous: Homosexuality is a disorder, not a sin,

Sorry, looks like thats what you're saying there.

I did read what you posted, and I appreciate you taking the time to post... but I can't see where my OP requirements are met. I would also like to know, do you think either of my requirements are unreasonable? Remember, even completing one of them will get me to renounce homosexuality. You don't even have to address them both...

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Here they are again...

1. Overwhelming evidence that the Bible is ACTUALLY God's word AND it condemns homosexuality,

and/or

2. A logically coherent and consistent moral argument against homosexuality

 

[Armistead]

Here they are again...

I'll post tomorrow.

However, how long have you known you're gay..from puberty or just a decision.

I see two groups of gays today. Those that suffered through the times of hiding in the closet and many today just are sexual people. Not so much bisexual, just everything goes with both sexes. I think this comes from gay
being a theme today and many jumping on the wagon. However, I think a lot of girls do it to get attention from guys.

Did you ever date guys. As beautiful as you are, you're being gay must
have broken a lot of guys hearts...

I'll give a detail response tomorrow.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

However, how long have you known you're gay..from puberty or just a decision.

For as long as I can remember being attracted to people, they have all been women.My first stirings in this regard, like most people, were around 7-8, and got more and more concrete as puberty progressed. If you really, really must know, I had a seriously intense, sexually specific, crush on Penny, from the Inspector Gadget cartoon. Don't ever accuse me of being dishonest.

Not so much bisexual, just everything goes with both sexes. I think this comes from gay
being a theme today and many jumping on the wagon.

I sincerely doubt that anyone who is genuinely not attracted to someone of the opposite sex would claim to be a sexual orientation they are not, just to seem cool. Of course, when there are strong social norms inplace, you can be forced into a gender role that is contrary to your orientation (either way) but I don';t see that as the same thing. I certainly don't think anyone makes a concious decision to be the sexual orientation that they are.

Did you ever date guys.

No, I have never dated guys. I have many male friends, and relationships with men whom I respect deeply and admire, some of whom I'd even say I "love", and an excelent relationship with both my father and brother. I go out with male friends and we can have a good time, but I simply do not, never have, felt any level of sexual attraction or tension with any male. It simply doesn't happen to me. Now, of course, I might meet some guy tommorrow who suddenly sets off heterosexual beels and buzzers... but it hasn't happened yet, and I can only talk about my personal experience to date.

As beautiful as you are, you're being gay must
have broken a lot of guys hearts...

Kind of you to say, but believe it or not, it is usually my heart that gets broken.

Look forward to hearing from you later.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

EnemyPartyII, you're not taking the time to read carefully what I say, or to even to think about what you failed to read carefully, so I'm done here. (I really don't have time to waste.)

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You've got to do what you feel is right, of course

 

[EnemyPartyII]

So... anyone?

 

[Zaac]

I'll post tomorrow.

However, how long have you known you're gay..from puberty or just a decision.

I see two groups of gays today. Those that suffered through the times of hiding in the closet and many today just are sexual people. Not so much bisexual, just everything goes with both sexes. I think this comes from gay
being a theme today and many jumping on the wagon. However, I think a lot of girls do it to get attention from guys.

Did you ever date guys. As beautiful as you are, you're being gay must
have broken a lot of guys hearts...

I'll give a detail response tomorrow.

Alright Armistead. No flirting with the children. You're happily married.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I'm still waiting for Armistead to get back to me.

Flirting with "children"?

 

[Zaac]

I'm still waiting for Armistead to get back to me.

Flirting with "children"?

Flirting with the young lady.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Flirting with the young lady.

Oh, well he's barking up the wrong tree if he is. I took it as being a pleasant compliment, nothing more.