Empathy, feminism, and the church [women’s ordination]

zippy2006

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If everybody treated each other with empathy and respect, this world would be transformed into the Kingdom of God.
This is a humanist soteriology, but it is actually a rather anodyne form of humanism. Natural reason is capable of understanding the dangers of empathy, and many secularists have in fact called out these same problems in critiquing the far left. But natural reason is also capable of understanding Aristotle's mean, and the corollary that "too much of a good thing is a bad thing." Empathy-worship is contrary to reason and Christianity alike.

And again, this is not a semantic issue or a minor issue. C.S. Lewis wrote about the problem in many places, including The Great Divorce and The Four Loves. Benedict XVI wrote about it in Caritas in Veritate. Patricia Snow's article, referenced above, is on the same topic. And now we are seeing the same thing arise in the Baptist world in the OP. This is a topic that will only become more important as our decadent society and the warped remains of its Christian roots continue to decay.
 
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FireDragon76

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Geez. Get real. Empathy isn't what's really happening in our society and causing problems. Marxism isn't empathy. Feminism isn't empathy either. So let's drop this conflated canard and get sensible. There are other, more important things to deal with.

I couldn't have said it better.

This seems more like the old veiled attack on liberals and their supposed "bleeding hearts" leading the nation to ruin. It was tired then and it's tired now.

Like I said, disdain for empathy is the virtue only of an insecure bully. I can't square it with the ethics of Jesus of Nazareth.
 
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The Liturgist

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I couldn't have said it better.

This seems more like the old veiled attack on liberals and their supposed "bleeding hearts" leading the nation to ruin. It was tired then and it's tired now.

Like I said, disdain for empathy is the virtue only of an insecure bully. I can't square it with the ethics of Jesus of Nazareth.

Respectfully, the members who have spoken about empathy are not insecure bullies nor are they psychopaths. They are pointing out things I was unaware of, for example, that empathy is a neologism and that it doesn’t mean what we think it means; rather it is a word that was inserted into the English language and describes what is a passion, which is a sort of pity in which improper capitulations are made because we feel sorry for someone.

The passion they are talking about was described by St. John Chrysostom, whose personal holiness is beyond question, and whose homiletics are unsurpassed, and whose liturgical skills and theological knowledge represented the apex of Christian theology in Antioch, a high water mark that would never be surpassed, only equalled, by very underrated Syriac Orthodox saints from that city who are in some Chalcedonian churches falsely accused of monophysitism.

I would describe the passion, now that I understand the point my friends @zippy2006 and @jas3 were trying to make, using a real world case: at United Air Lines, second officers, that is to say, flight engineers, who failed to upgrade to copilot after two attempts were not allowed to make another but were kept in the third seat permanently. This is a policy I find a bit questionable, because the nature of being a pilot flying sideways as flight engineer can result in one losing one’s stick and rudder skills, which is why I have ultimately come to the conclusion that the move to a two man* flight deck was the right one to make. Also the system used by British Airways, and historically by some US airlines such as Western (until the 1960s) of having flight engineers with a background in aircraft maintenance would have avoided this.

At any rate, there was a DC-8 freighter which crashed in the early 1980s as a result of the captain feeling sorry for his second officer, who had failed twice to upgrade to first officer and thus was permanently stuck flying sideways at the flight engineer’s console as a second officer, and thus the captain decided to let the second officer land the aircraft, and the second officer made a disastrous mistake which killed all three pilots (I don’t think there were any casualties on the ground, and this was a freighter with no deadheads on board).

This kind of destructive pity, and I would argue that the ordination of women in denominations that ordain women is not an example of that, but if a schism were caused in a church that has a doctrinal objection to the ordination of women by changing the policy, on the basis of a misguided sense of pity, that would be an example of the above, because nothing is worth causing yet another schism. I myself am so frustrated by the endless schisms that I cannot endorse any action which could provoke another one (this is why Fiducia Supplicans upsets me so much). Preserving unity in the church is becoming increasingly imperative due to an increase in schismatic activity primarily motivated by stupid issues of ecclesiastical politics, for example, petty rivalry between bishops, or factionalism in some churches. Indeed my beloved Park Street Church in Boston experienced, while the current pastor was recovering from a serious injury, a situation which appears to have come uncomfortably close to causing a schism (this appears to have been avoided, since once the pastor returned, he has put his all into restoring unity).

*I use the word man according to its traditional meaning, inclusive of female pilots, of whom there are many excellent examples. Indeed some have made interesting arguments that women are in principle slightly better qualified to be pilots than men, but I think the experience in the airline industry is that male and female pilots are equally qualified. What I resent is the recent political correctness in some aviation terminology, for example, in theory, a NOTAM (Notice To Air Men) now stands for “Notice To Air Missions” which I would argue is a terrible name, since it does not convey that NOTAMs are relevant to general aviation pilots, although NOTAM was also problematic since the USAF refers to enlisted personnel as airmen, even if they are not pilots or do not work in a part of the air force where they would have any need to read a NOTAM, but then again as anyone with any knowledge of aviation can tell you the entire system of NOTAMS has become notoriously broken; the number of NOTAMs presented to airline pilots has reached a level where many are irrelevant for their flight, and the formatting of the NOTAM messages makes them hard to read. Another even more unpleasant example of absurd political correctness has been having air traffic controllers no longer ask pilots for the number of souls on board, but rather the number of personnel on board, which is also misleading since it could give the impression of referring only to flight crew and cabin crew. Another example would be attempts at eliminating the term “deadheading” which is convenient as it refers both to non-revenue travel by pilots commuting to work, and also to travel by passholders; fortunately this has not entirely stuck and the term is also widely used on US railways to refer both to crew deadheading on passenger trains, and to trains deadheading, that is to say, making non-revenue movements, which airlines call repositioning or “repo” flights.
 
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FireDragon76

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Merriam-Webster is engaged in “semantics games”?


Certainly not, and certainly not by Christianity’s lights.

Please explain this statement. I guess we have different ideas about what the core teaching and ministry of Jesus was about. Jesus said we are the salt of the earth and the light of the world. And we pray in the Lord's prayer that God's reign will come on Earth as in Heaven. So I don't understand how my statement is sub-Christian.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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They are pointing out things I was unaware of, for example, that empathy is a neologism and that it doesn’t mean what we think it means; rather it is a word that was inserted into the English language and describes what is a passion, which is a sort of pity in which improper capitulations are made because we feel sorry for someone.
If that were all that "empathy" is", a "passion, which is a sort of pity in which improper capitulations are made because we feel sorry for someone". I might agree with you. But empathy is a much more complex human ability.

And since there is power in words let us be careful with them.

1. the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another

2. The act of imagining one's ideas, feelings, or attitudes as fully inhabiting something observed (such as a work of art or natural occurrence) : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it



1. The ability to share someone else's feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person's situation


Obviously, nothing about "improper capitulation". What we do with empathy is another matter. The OP is not about empathy. It is about exploitation or others' plight for political or worldview advancement.
 
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FireDragon76

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Obviously, nothing about "improper capitulation". What we do with empathy is another matter. The OP is not about empathy. It is about exploitation or others' plight for political or worldview advancement.

Agreed. "Woke" usually relies upon notions of justice more than empathy. And concern for justice isn't something to be dismissed as wrong, either, for that matter.

The real issue is how do people with different moral frameworks and worldviews learn to live together? Might I suggest that love is the appropriate response? I don't accept the notion that my neighbor is automatically a bogieman just because they have different priorities or worldviews. The culture doesn't belong to Christians by rights, we are just sojourners in the world- the old Christendom model was wrongheaded a thousand years ago and it's wrong now, too.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Agreed. "Woke" usually relies upon notions of justice more than empathy. And concern for justice isn't something to be dismissed as wrong, either, for that matter.

The real issue is how do people with different moral frameworks and worldviews learn to live together? Might I suggest that love is the appropriate response? I don't accept the notion that my neighbor is automatically a bogieman just because they have different priorities or worldviews. The culture doesn't belong to Christians by rights, we are just sojourners in the world- the old Christendom model was wrongheaded a thousand years ago and it's wrong now, too.
And even within the "Christendom model" there is considerable disagreement.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is a humanist soteriology, but it is actually a rather anodyne form of humanism. Natural reason is capable of understanding the dangers of empathy, and many secularists have in fact called out these same problems in critiquing the far left. But natural reason is also capable of understanding Aristotle's mean, and the corollary that "too much of a good thing is a bad thing." Empathy-worship is contrary to reason and Christianity alike.

And again, this is not a semantic issue or a minor issue. C.S. Lewis wrote about the problem in many places, including The Great Divorce and The Four Loves. Benedict XVI wrote about it in Caritas in Veritate. Patricia Snow's article, referenced above, is on the same topic. And now we are seeing the same thing arise in the Baptist world in the OP. This is a topic that will only become more important as our decadent society and the warped remains of its Christian roots continue to decay.

Indeed, this is a very good argument.
 
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FireDragon76

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And even within the "Christendom model" there is considerable disagreement.

Even if you do have that kind of orientation, I think a more winsome approach is the correct one in terms of Christian ethics when engaging with other worldviews and moral frameworks.

There's alot of fear right now in places like the US that things are getting out of control, now that the number of people identifying as Christians or attending churches is shrinking, especially in younger generations, and we need to find more creative solution that actually rely upon things like empathy as virtues. It's only by really, deeply listening to what people we disagree with have to say that we can really communicate, as opposed to talk past each other. And disagreement doesn't have to be a catastrophe. As the Proverbs say, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".
 
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The Liturgist

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If that were all that "empathy" is", a "passion, which is a sort of pity in which improper capitulations are made because we feel sorry for someone". I might agree with you. But empathy is a much more complex human ability.

And since there is power in words let us be careful with them.

1. the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another

2. The act of imagining one's ideas, feelings, or attitudes as fully inhabiting something observed (such as a work of art or natural occurrence) : the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it



1. The ability to share someone else's feelings or experiences by imagining what it would be like to be in that person's situation


Obviously, nothing about "improper capitulation". What we do with empathy is another matter. The OP is not about empathy. It is about exploitation or others' plight for political or worldview advancement.

If empathy meant what I thought it meant, which is close to the definition provided by Cambridge (which is still problematic since it lacks an element of sympathy and charity, so someone could in principle have empathy but use empathy in a sado-masochistic way, that is to say, they might enjoy imagining the suffering of others), until @jas3 and other members pointed out what it actually means, which is the definition provided by Miriam-Webster, which I have since verified, I would agree with you.

I don’t see a problem with putting oneself in another’s shoes. That is an ancient concept. But when the word empathy was coined, it referred to other things, and those things are what @zippy2006 , @jas3 and myself object to.

But I will say if it were the case that empathy meant what most people think it means, which indeed is the definition given by Cambridge, then this would be a different argument. So indeed, where most people talk about empathy, I think they mean something else, something more noble.
 
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FireDragon76

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This is a humanist soteriology, but it is actually a rather anodyne form of humanism. Natural reason is capable of understanding the dangers of empathy, and many secularists have in fact called out these same problems in critiquing the far left. But natural reason is also capable of understanding Aristotle's mean, and the corollary that "too much of a good thing is a bad thing." Empathy-worship is contrary to reason and Christianity alike.

And again, this is not a semantic issue or a minor issue. C.S. Lewis wrote about the problem in many places, including The Great Divorce and The Four Loves. Benedict XVI wrote about it in Caritas in Veritate. Patricia Snow's article, referenced above, is on the same topic. And now we are seeing the same thing arise in the Baptist world in the OP. This is a topic that will only become more important as our decadent society and the warped remains of its Christian roots continue to decay.

This assumes that Roman Catholic tradition is infallible in its use of natural law framework, that there aren't other possible ways to understand natural law, especially ones more open to the discoveries of the empirical sciences.

I can appreciate operating from a natural law framework ) but I don't agree with how the Roman Catholic church has used it. Traditionally, Catholics silenced any criticism of their use of natural law, even though many pagan natural law philosophers themselves wouldn't have agreed with their conclusions.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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It's only by really, deeply listening to what people we disagree with have to say that we can really communicate, as opposed to talk past each other. And disagreement doesn't have to be a catastrophe. As the Proverbs say, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".
Well now you are sounding like some kind of enlightened being from another planet or an authentic follower of Christ.

For a full and rich life we must be compassionate, empathetic and vulnerable or love one another.
And we must accept that we will get our butt kicked, embrace our cross.
 
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The Liturgist

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Even if you do have that kind of orientation, I think a more winsome approach is the correct one in terms of Christian ethics when engaging with other worldviews and moral frameworks.

There's alot of fear right now in places like the US that things are getting out of control, now that the number of people identifying as Christians or attending churches is shrinking, especially in younger generations, and we need to find more creative solution that actually rely upon things like empathy as virtues. It's only by really, deeply listening to what people we disagree with have to say that we can really communicate, as opposed to talk past each other. And disagreement doesn't have to be a catastrophe. As the Proverbs say, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".

The Orthodox churches, except for the Greek Orthodox church, are experiencing membership growth, and furthermore the reproductive rate among traditional Christians including the Orthodox, the Traditional Latin Mass Catholic communities, and some traditional Anglican and Methodist communities is high. I think one can evaluate the health of a church by how many children it has, and how many of those children stay with it, and the churches I have mentioned are doing very well in this respect.

The real problem is that evangelical and Calvinist churches have stopped growing, the Pentecostal churches are slowing down in terms of growth, and the mainline Protestant denominations due to their unwise embrace of obviously unscriptural doctrine on human sexuality and certain other issues such as abortion, have not only lost huge segments of their members, but continue to lose members, since a problem of attrition is ocurring, since many of those who decided to stay were older Christians who really did not relish the prospect of changing denominations, and who in some cases I have seen even sit through a liberal sermon they disagree with as long as the worship remains traditional and the hymns they like to sing are sung. This is a result of Pietism; which is pervasive in the mainline churches, along with something like neo-Latiduinarianism among Anglicans, and it has a problem in that it tends to foster indifference to doctrinal error. But these beliefs have declined, and there is simply not enough remaining Pietist or neo-Latitudinarian sentiment left to sustain the mainline churches, which is why they continue to lose members.
 
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The Liturgist

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This assumes that Roman Catholic tradition is infallible in its use of natural law framework, that there aren't other possible ways to understand natural law, especially ones more open to the discoveries of the empirical sciences.

I can appreciate operating from a natural law framework ) but I don't agree with how the Roman Catholic church has used it. Traditionally, Catholics silenced any criticism of their use of natural law, even though many pagan natural law philosophers themselves wouldn't have agreed with their conclusions.

That’s not true. What my friend @zippy2006 wrote does not depend on RC natural law framework, since it appeals to me as an Orthodox Christian and we lack that particular framework, and of course CS Lewis was an Anglican, a high church Anglican, but an Anglican nonetheless. And the whole point of zippy’s post was that this issue is not specific to one denomination. It was an extremely ecumenical post which is not contingent on Roman Catholic infallibility.
 
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Paidiske

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Paidiske is.
A point which many of our interlocuters will not concede, since they see my ordination and ministry as invalid.

And yet here I am catching up on the thread in a break at a clergy conference, so, you know, I'll take real life ministry over internet objections any day. :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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A point which many of our interlocuters will not concede, since they see my ordination and ministry as invalid.

And yet here I am catching up on the thread in a break at a clergy conference, so, you know, I'll take real life ministry over internet objections any day. :)

You go, Sis! :cool: ... and since I have a whole other interpretive stance on both Tradtition and the Bible, I have little (if no) problem with sisters in Christ leading the way, even as clergy.
 
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The Liturgist

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A point which many of our interlocuters will not concede, since they see my ordination and ministry as invalid.

And yet here I am catching up on the thread in a break at a clergy conference, so, you know, I'll take real life ministry over internet objections any day. :)

Well as you know, I have always regarded your ministry as valid! And I have made a point to express as much in this thread. And I hope that members in Traditional Theology will follow the tradition of ecumenical courtesy that has characterized this forum and recognize your status as a legitimate priest of the Anglican Church of Australia.

For my part, since I joined the forum several years ago, I immediately found myself impressed by your professionalism and concern for pastoral care. Indeed when it comes to pastoral care and safeguarding provisions, and certain other practical aspects of parish operation, I don’t think there is anyone else on Christian Forums who knows as much as you do about how to run such a ministry as far as the presbyter is concerned.

And in the case of where we disagree, I want to make it clear my views are not imbalanced, insofar as what is good for the goose is good for the gander so to speak. Thus with regards to your church,I would be opposed to changing the ordination policies for the same reason I am opposed to changing them in the RCC and other denominations which do not ordain women, because it would very likely cause a schism. And this would be particularly disastrous in the case of the rural parishes of your church, so if someone somehow seized power in your jurisdiction* and fired all the female clergy jt would leave it unable to operate most of its rural parishes, and large numbers of members would depart and a schism would occur and the result would be horrible. Fortunately this is unlikely.*

Additionally, in the case your church, I would assume (and correct me if I am wrong here) provides very good opportunities for women who feel called to serve in pastoral roles to do so. Also, please correct me if I’m wrong but internally in both Victoria and NSW, at least as far as your bishops are concerned, there has not been discrimination against you, I hope? Since my view on your church being an ideal place for women called to the ministry to serve is predicated on that assumption.

I also have to confess I wish this thread had not been posted in Traditional Theology, since it has become polemical, and historically, threads in this forum have not been polemical.

* I say unlikely but unfortunately I can not say such things are impossible, at least not in the US. I am aware of several instances where such things have happened in a wide variety of churches, ranging from mainline Protestant to Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.

One of the most chilling cases I am aware of involved a canonical Orthodox parish being taken over by a particularly unpleasant group of schismatic Old Calendarists** due to a legal technicality, in that during the ensuing lawsuit the incompetent attorneys for the canonical diocese failed to file a particular document on time and thus allowed the schismatics to win by default. It is frightening to think that sort of thing can happen; a malicious actor could sue hundreds of churches and potentially gain control of at least one (in this case, the Old Calendarists did have a connection to the parish but they represented only a faction within the parish community, and after their takeover the members opposed to them had no choice but to go to other nearby parishes). For this reason we should pray that our churches are protected from malicious attempts to expropriate their property.

Hopefully this sort of thing would not work in Australia: it would at a minimum be much more expensive to try since in the US the loosing party is not automatically responsible for legal fees.

** The incident was made even more chilling by the extremist nature of Old Calendarists, who regard all canonical Eastern Orthodox churches as heretical, because some canonical Eastern Orthodox churches have engaged in ecumenical dialogue and also even those canonical Orthodox churches that use the Old Calendar are in communion with those which do not, and they are extremist to such a degree that nearly all converts from canonical Orthodox churches are required to be rebaptized, which is particularly shocking when one considers that the fourth century Christian church received returning Arians and converts from Arianism by profession of faith, since the goal was to make it as easy as possible for those who had been converted by or who had been born into Arianism to escape from it into the tender embrace of Nicene Christianity. These extremist sects emerged as a unified group in protest to a change in the liturgical calendar of several churches starting in 1920, and gained credibility due to severe persecution by the Greek military junta in the 1970s, but by that time had already began to fragment into different rival synods, and as this continued, they developed a hardline opposition to ecumenical dialogue and became progressively more extreme from there.
 
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zippy2006

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Please explain this statement.
See my post here.

And we pray in the Lord's prayer that God's reign will come on Earth as in Heaven. So I don't understand how my statement is sub-Christian.
It does not follow that empathy+respect = salvation. That's pretty basic Pelagianism.

The empathy fad in our culture is part of a collapse into the black hole of the self. It reorients the solar system around personal feelings, irrespective of whether those feelings are legitimate or true. Protestants say faith saves; Catholics say faith in love saves; folks in this thread say empathy saves.

Again, just watch the first few minutes in the video of the OP. It's remarkable that I am still responding to people who have never even looked at the OP.
 
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See my post here.


It does not follow that empathy+respect = salvation. That's pretty basic Pelagianism.

The empathy fad in our culture is part of a collapse into the black hole of the self. It reorients the solar system around personal feelings, irrespective of whether those feelings are legitimate or true. Protestants say faith saves; Catholics say faith in love saves; folks in this thread say empathy saves.

Again, just watch the first few minutes in the video of the OP. It's remarkable that I am still responding to people who have never even looked at the OP.

... the OP article partially represents the sort of thinking that provides one of several reasons why I don't join more "staunch" congregations of fellow believers. It's not as if I haven't tried to connect with them in amenable ways, but what invariably happens is that because of what is averred to and promoted by the church leaders as "the righteous way" all too often ends up reducing to a coercive effort by them to get folks like me to tow and parrot back the party line and, with a more or less sociopathic tinge, they've more than once implied in their preaching: "to hell with everyone's feelings [or to valid counterfactual knowledge] in the congregation if it differs from ours," with the further insinuation being that what they are really saying in all of this is that if a person in the congregation merely disagrees, then he/she should leave.

And I find the OP article laced with similar insinuations, as well as with conflations in argument where women in the church are concerned.

Yeah, what invariably happens is that as I patiently attempt to communicate my point of view in such a congregation, animosity gradually builds up against me by those who realize I won't tow the party line, being the Existentialist and Evidentialist and Critical Realist that I am.

The main problem is that truth, goodness and reality are 'bigger' than what both the biblical writers and those of later tradition, and those modern leaders in various churches, have expressed. The most unfortunate thing is that apparently many people simply can't come to terms with that larger epistemic context.
 
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