El and Yahweh Are Separate Gods Redacted Into One

[Usus Vox Tractus]

MOD HAT...

Everyone; this is a proposal thread, not a debate thread. If you are going to debate this, then post your intent and I will set it up. If you don't want to engage the proposer in a formal debate, then please don't try and do so informally here.

OK?

Mark
Staff Supervisor

Whoops....sorry!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Whoops....sorry!

No worries.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't agree with you, but I can already tell I like you. It's obvious you've put some real thought into this and the way that you accept an evolving religious background is intriguing. I'm not sure it would measure up under real scrutiny, but I like that it has some depth as opposed to "ignore all evidence that disagrees with my wants". Kudos!



I don't know - now I'm kinda wondering about a debate over whether or not it is important to Christianity's core teachings.

I think I'd be more willing to go that route as well. Something like: "Is the truth of Christianity depend on the literal historicity of the Torah?"

Although I think it could be framed better, something that would both take into account that your "Yes" answer isn't the answer of a literalist Christian but rather of a non-religious historian, and take into account the fact that my answer is not an absolute "No" but a qualified "No."

However it's worded, I think a good jumping off point would be the argument Paul makes in Romans 9-11, especially his thematic statement in 9:4-5: "They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen."

Would you gentlemen like to proceed in this direction? GCC, you mentioned a better 'framing'; how does this look?

1. Title: El and Yahweh Are Separate Gods Redacted Into One
2. Topic: The truth of Christianity is dependent on the literal historicity of the Torah.
3. BlueLightningTN will be taking the affirmative position; GratiaCorpusChristi will be taking the negative position.
4. Number of alternating rounds...
5. Maximum lengths of posts...
6. Outside quotes will be allowed, but will be subject to the 20% rule
7. Start date:_________________
8. I would like to try an open peanut gallery rather than a moderated one; so I'm suggesting creating one in
   
   Unorthodox Doctrinal Discussion since this just does not fit in GT.

There is nothing here written in stone; I'm just throwing out suggestions. It will be your debate, so we need you guys to be OK with the stipulations. Item two, the topic, is open enough that it will allow for some "conversational drift" without taking the thread off topic; is this ok or would you like to tighten it up? If we tighten it up, we can create more spin-off debates if the need arises.

Let me know your thoughts.


Mark



I

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This has been an interesting subject for me and I've read enough to have some familiarity with it. And I do think an orthodox case can be defended. But while I know enough to discuss it, my knowledge isn't deep enough for debate. Sorry.

It's all good. I'm waiting on BL and GCC to weigh in on the stipulations.

Mark
Staff Supervisor

 

[BL2KTN]

I'm cool with it. I won't be responding as quickly as usual though. I'm a little burned out on long posts =)

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm cool with it. I won't be responding as quickly as usual though. I'm a little burned out on long posts =)

No worries; we can make the post size a little smaller here, say 500-1000 words. Let's see what GCC thinks.

I would actually like to learn more about the ugaritic texts. I would also like to see how much there is to support the idea that seems to be gaining popularity with scholars that the ancient Hebrew religion evolved out of the Canaanite people. I believe there is a fair amount of evidence, both archaeological and textual, that this is not so. This would also open the debate to more fields of expertise. And while I am anything but expert, I have familiarized myself somewhat with some of the archaeological evidence. But to try to prove either assertion from purely a textual standpoint, I feel is a somewhat fruitless endeavor. I have studied biblical redaction of the NT texts, and eventually came to the conclusion that it was all rather pointless by itself, and that other factors needed to be considered in determining what texts are the most reliable or "most original."

RevelationTestament, this is not a discussion thread so please hold off posting. Once we have the debate set up I will be creating a Peanut Gallery thread where everyone can discuss this subject. When it is open, I will move this post, and a few others in this thread to the Peanut Gallery.

OK?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I would actually like to learn more about the ugaritic texts. I would also like to see how much there is to support the idea that seems to be gaining popularity with scholars that the ancient Hebrew religion evolved out of the Canaanite people. I believe there is a fair amount of evidence, both archaeological and textual, that this is not so. This would also open the debate to more fields of expertise. And while I am anything but expert, I have familiarized myself somewhat with some of the archaeological evidence. But to try to prove either assertion from purely a textual standpoint, I feel is a somewhat fruitless endeavor. I have studied biblical redaction of the NT texts, and eventually came to the conclusion that it was all rather pointless by itself, and that other factors needed to be considered in determining what texts are the most reliable or "most original."

If you're interested in that sort of thing, I would start with, on the moderately "liberal" works like Mark S. Smith's The Early History of God and William G. Dever's What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?, which represent a variety of positions within the mainstream of contemporary scholarship, while balancing that with the moderate "conservatism" of Kenneth Kitchen's On the Reliability of the Old Testament and Provan, Long, and Longman's A Biblical History of Israel. Michael Coogan's Oxford History of the Biblical World is particularly good for understanding the thought-world of the biblical authors within their wider Levantine and Near Eastern contexts.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'm cool with it. I won't be responding as quickly as usual though. I'm a little burned out on long posts =)

No worries; we can make the post size a little smaller here, say 500-1000 words. Let's see what GCC thinks.

Something of that length sounds good. I'm pretty wordy as everyone knows, so I'd say put it at 1000 but give each of us longer times to respond. But I'm willing to go with whatever works best for BLTN.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm cool with it. I won't be responding as quickly as usual though. I'm a little burned out on long posts =)

Something of that length sounds good. I'm pretty wordy as everyone knows, so I'd say put it at 1000 but give each of us longer times to respond. But I'm willing to go with whatever works best for BLTN.

BL, let's make it 1000 words then, that's really not that big.

BL, GCC; The next question is how many rounds do you feel are needed to give this topic a proper treatment? I'm thinking minimum 5? Keep in mind I'm willing to extend debates on mutual consent if the need arises.

Time limit between posts; how about 1 week, or would you guys like it longer. I'm flexible on these as well, and if you go over, I just send out a friendly prompt via PM.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

That all sounds good.

 

[BL2KTN]

I'm fine with all of that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thanks guys!

I'll get this all set up tonight and will post back here once everything is in place.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Debate thread is set up as is the Peanut Gallery thread. The Debate thread which contains a link to the peanut Gallery can be found here: Formal Debate - El and Yahweh Are Separate Gods Redacted Into One

I am on vacation next week but this forum will be looked after by whitebeaches so if you have any questions feel free to contact either her or Tishri1 while I'm away. They are both great and know what's up in Formal Debate.

I am also moving some of the off topic discussion posts from this thread to the Peanut gallery: Formal Debate Peanut Gallery- El and Yahweh Are Separate Gods Redacted Into One

I am closing this thread now.

Enjoy your debate!

Mark