Discussion of When Life Begins [Everybody welcome]

[BelindaP]

This is a discussion that I started to have elsewhere, but it didn't go so well. So, I thought it would be a great one to try for our first discussion here.

I've been thinking a lot lately about when life begins. I know that the default position of many Christians is that it begins at conception. However, I think people choose that because they think the Bible is completely silent about the matter, so they go as early as possible.

I don't want this to turn into a discussion about abortion at all. Rather, I'm interested in what others think the Bible says or doesn't say about when life begins. I'll start by posting a verse and then give my thoughts.

Lev. 17:11 (KJV)--For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

Embryos don't have their own blood supply until about a week after implantation. Since that is the case, would it mean that life doesn't really begin until the embryo has it's own blood?

 

[MrJim]

couldn't have found something a little less...sparky to start off with, like the color of the curtains we're gonna hang up around here

I'm with the default conception argument on this one, the usual verses you already know by heart from Jeremiah & Psalms.

As far as the Leviticus/blood idea~hadn't heard it before, but I'd have to go with intent; that is, blood or not, creation is in progress.

 

[BelindaP]

Hey, when I test a forum, I really test a forum.

I know the other verses, but the don't address the when specifically, as far as I can tell.

 

[MrJim]

Hey, when I test a forum, I really test a forum.

I know the other verses, but the don't address the when specifically, as far as I can tell.

It's the mystery of it~a little something I picked up from the Orthodox folks, that it's ok to accept mystery, in this case the mystery of creation.

 

[Criada]

I go with conception - because that is when the potential to become a human being begins...

Interesting point, tho - hadn't noticed those verses.
But - I think the embryo's own blood develops much later than that - the initial blood supply is maternal...
Not sure when actual foetal blood cells differentiate - have to look that one up.

 

[£amb]

I also like the verse in Jermiah that MrJim was talking about. How special we are that God already know the purpose to our lives before we are actually flesh and blood. So to me, no matter when the true life begins, God already knows us...

*whew...got that controversial subject answered*

 

[Athene]

I go with implantation purely because not all fertilised eggs are viable, they won't all implant in the womb lining, who knows how many fertilised eggs are shed by sexually active women. But after implantation there is a significant probability that the egg will develop into a baby.

 

[BelindaP]

Athene, that's interesting, because it is shortly after implantation that an embryo develops its own blood supply.

 

[Willtor]

Biologically speaking, the embryo is a living thing. It's also a human. Is it a person? Is it alive in a spiritual sense? I think these questions are more difficult to answer. I _don't_ think that the Scriptures were written so that we would know precisely when a sort of spiritual being appears. I think the typical passages used to reference such things are hyperbole to make quite the opposite case from the way they are typically used: God knew me before I was.

However, inasmuch as I have known women to have (what seemed to me) very real spiritual connections to their unborn children, I'd have a difficult time arguing that the spiritual person is not present (at some level) in some very early stages of development.

 

[BelindaP]

I would agree with you there, having been pregnant. I know it happens pretty early on.

 

[Lisa0315]

Conception even if the pregnancy is not viable...It is still life. Ectopic pregnancies are still life but it is not murder because there is no chance for survival. When ectopic pregnancies become medically viable, I would consider ending those as murder as well.

Lisa

 

[BelindaP]

I think the latest an ectopic pregancy (at least one in the tube) has ever been discovered was at about 13-14 weeks. I know it would have been extremely troubling for me to lose one that late

 

[Willtor]

I wouldn't jump to murder so quickly. As with any homocide one has to look at individual cases to determine. On the extremes it might be murder vs. justifiable homocide. And there's also a lot of area in between.

 

[BelindaP]

I don't know that God differentiates one sin from another. It has a lot to do with where your heart is.

 

[Tenebrae]

Spoke with my sister about egtopic pregnancys and she said, there is almost no chance for the mother to be able to carry the baby to term. (shes an ED Doc)

However wouldnt make it suck any less

 

[Lisa0315]

I wouldn't jump to murder so quickly. As with any homocide one has to look at individual cases to determine. On the extremes it might be murder vs. justifiable homocide. And there's also a lot of area in between.

I have a very strong opinion about abortion. It will be one of the tests for myself to see how well I fit in here. I will not argue the point here, but in that area, I am very, very uber Conservative. Many things, I can see gray areas on, but this isn't one of them. Like I said, not arguing with you about it, just explaining my own position and how I may not be a good fit for this forum. I am here in test mode because I have so many friends who have signed in. I love them and may want to fellowship here, but may not be good member material. Just trying to wait and see.

Lisa

 

[BelindaP]

That's understandable, Lisa. And I think you'll find that the abortion threads might not be the best place for you to linger. I think that one thing that will make this forum work is if people realize what their views are and avoid discussions where their sensibilities will be harmed or offended.

I'm actually trying to avoid bringing abortion into this particular discussion, because that's not what it's really about. I'm looking for the scriptural basis for when life begins. I know what a lot of people believe on both sides and the logic they use to defend it, but I'm wondering what God has to say about it.

My choosing one verse out the the entire Bible could be taking things way too literally and out of context. So, I'm hoping to see what others think about that, too. At this point, this is a musing and a wondering on my part.

 

[Lisa0315]

That's understandable, Lisa. And I think you'll find that the abortion threads might not be the best place for you to linger. I think that one thing that will make this forum work is if people realize what their views are and avoid discussions where their sensibilities will be harmed or offended.

I'm actually trying to avoid bringing abortion into this particular discussion, because that's not what it's really about. I'm looking for the scriptural basis for when life begins. I know what a lot of people believe on both sides and the logic they use to defend it, but I'm wondering what God has to say about it.

My choosing one verse out the the entire Bible could be taking things way too literally and out of context. So, I'm hoping to see what others think about that, too. At this point, this is a musing and a wondering on my part.

Oh, I see and I did jump from the beginnings of life to abortion, you are right. They are linked in my mind, and I imagine in everyone elses as well. Sorry about that.

Lisa

 

[Willtor]

I have a very strong opinion about abortion. It will be one of the tests for myself to see how well I fit in here. I will not argue the point here, but in that area, I am very, very uber Conservative. Many things, I can see gray areas on, but this isn't one of them. Like I said, not arguing with you about it, just explaining my own position and how I may not be a good fit for this forum. I am here in test mode because I have so many friends who have signed in. I love them and may want to fellowship here, but may not be good member material. Just trying to wait and see.

Lisa

No worries if you think my thoughts are stupid and entirely unfounded. Almost certainly, someone here does. Nevertheless, I'm eager to put my thoughts on the table and expose them to collective scrutiny. I hope you will, too (put yours on the table and/or scrutinize my views).

The reason I say what I say is that there are many times that one person kills another person. Sometimes it is justifiable and sometimes it isn't. To the degree that the law is authorized to decide between such things, I don't see it as helpful to say that all abortion is murder unless all homocide under any circumstance is murder.

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As a side note, if you feel particularly strongly and want to take the level of discussion and dissection up a notch (BAM) there is (or will be) an "Outside" forum here for the purpose of outright debate.

 

[BelindaP]

No, it's fine. We're just having a discussion and meanderings happen.