Discipleship

[Dave-W]

....

 

[AlexDTX]

I was in the so-called "discipleship" (shepherding) string of congregations during the 1970s and 80s. There were many problems and eventually the entire network collapsed. Many people were hurt, and want NOTHING to do with the "D" word.

I fared somewhat better and was for many years in another fellowship of congregations that held to a similar model of discipleship, with it being less controlling than the Christian Growth Ministries/Integrity Communications organization. But it also had problems, at least in certain pockets. So I left. (hence my name change a few months ago)

But I still believe that we are called to be discipled. Following that, we ourselves are called to disciple others. And that which is described in the Gospels is VASTLY different than the Greek model of teacher/student.

Very interesting article. The first thought that came to my mind is the quote of Jesus to the Pharisees:

Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.​

The problem is that instead of making people disciples of Christ they make them disciples of themselves. If you look at the missions of Paul, he did not stay more than a few years with his new congregations. Paul taught them how to listen to Jesus for themselves which meant he became unnecessary. He would check in on them later and counseled them as needed.

The master is Jesus and the goal of any effort is to help believers to know how to hear Jesus for themselves so Jesus can continue the lifelong process of disciplining his children. That is why so many discipleship programs fail. They don't know how to get past the admonition of Paul to follow him as he follows Christ. It always stops at following him, but not following Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Instead of stopping at some point,
realize it doesn't ever get to the point
of actually being
a disciple of Jesus, usually. (rarely can anyone find a disciple)

If anyone follows Paul as Paul (or any child of YHWH) followed Christ,
they would be 'perfect',
compared to , well, not being 'perfect'.

The first step to be a disciple is rarely ever taken, by anyone,
thus
as I said in the first sentence: "... it doesn't ever get to the point of actually being a disciple of Jesus...." qualified: usually, rarely.

Instead, in all the so-called discipleship training, even the leaders
of such things
make excuses for not being real disciples.....
and those they are 'training'
do not even have an example of Christ to follow , nor to learn from.

 

[Dave-W]

....

 

[FireDragon76]

Discipleship is just regularly going to church and hearing the Word and worshiping God with like-minded people. The revivalists broke the simple faith that Protestant had in the Word. The result of course was predictable embarrassment, a doubling-down of religious enthusiasm and authoritarian tendencies, and so on.

Discipleship really starts with your immediate vocation. The stuff Paul wrote about. Taking care of your family, being a good citizen. The kingdom of God is built up by gladly taking out the trash, washing the dishes, going to work, and tucking your kids into bed at night. That is no small task. Orphanages, divorce courts, and prisons are full of the results of peopling failing at discipleship.

 

[Dave-W]

....

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you really think that is what the gospel writers were thinking when they wrote about discipleship?

Or is that what modern western culture has degraded it into?

I'm not one of those Originalist types. My pastor and I had a discussion about that on Sunday over coffee, there are so many philosophical problems with this approach to interpreting texts. It assumes we can reconstruct the mindset of the authors, who were products of their times, and apply it into a modern context without recontextualizing. It just ain't so.

My pastor is particularly frustrated by folks in our church that pretend to know the mind of Luther on a whole host of modern issues, when in reality they are just turning Luther's memory into a sock-puppet for their opinions.

Modern mainline churches' worship is directly descended from synagogue worship, BTW. The pastor still uses the Aaronic blessing, even. Everything they were doing, we are doing, in a modern context.

 

[Dave-W]

....

 

[FireDragon76]

You CAN know the general mindset of the first century religious Jews by reading the Mishnah and Talmuds. (and filtering out the anti-christian stuff)

I don't think its so straightforward. It's not like what we have in modern Judaism is identical to Second Temple Judaism. And the early Christian community had real differences with other Jews. So, its not an exact science. Look at the controversy around N.T. Wright. It's not even clear how applicable his research is to a modern context, on some points there is no end to the controversy around it.

I can tell you in my church's approach, we do engage in the historical-critical method, including studying the evidence we have for 1st century Judaism. However, our immediate circumstances in which we interpret the Bible is a living religious tradition we have received from our spiritual ancestors. And we only reform stuff that is obviously broken, things like the teaching of contempt for Jews or the Doctrine of Discovery of the Americas, for instance.

 

[Arsenios]

....

Dave-W,
God Bless You, my Brother...
You did well...

+

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Instead of stopping at some point,
realize it doesn't ever get to the point
of actually being
a disciple of Jesus, usually. (rarely can anyone find a disciple)

If anyone follows Paul as Paul (or any child of YHWH) followed Christ,
they would be 'perfect',
compared to , well, not being 'perfect'.

The first step to be a disciple is rarely ever taken, by anyone,
thus
as I said in the first sentence: "... it doesn't ever get to the point of actually being a disciple of Jesus...." qualified: usually, rarely.

Instead, in all the so-called discipleship training, even the leaders
of such things
make excuses for not being real disciples.....
and those they are 'training'
do not even have an example of Christ to follow , nor to learn from.

We are sure known by our fruit, no question...

Yet the Call to Discipleship is across the board, is it not?

Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We are sure known by our fruit, no question...
Yet the Call to Discipleship is across the board, is it not?

"no question"?
Rather, BIG question. (not permitted on this site to go into detail)

"across the board" ?
< shrugs > Do you mean "many are called" ?
If that's what you mean, why ? or , so?

 

[Arsenios]

"no question"? τηρειν

None whatsoever - The tree is known by its fruit... The Master is known by his or her disciples...

Rather, BIG question. (not permitted on this site to go into detail)

The question raised was the doubting of the very existence of disciples...

And this because of the nature of the fruit being produced...

"across the board" ?
< shrugs > Do you mean "many are called" ?
If that's what you mean, why ? or , so?

It did kinda seem like I said "ALL are called..." which is false...
Yet there is no category of person found "on the board" who is excluded...
eg There is no sin that rules any person out of the running for discipleship...
Exception might be the sin of suicide by despondency - But then there is no longer a "board"...
Rejection of God in an encounter with Him perhaps another...

Across the Board means all walks of life - From serial killers to philanthropists...
ANYONE can deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Christ...

Granted that such a precious few actually do so...

Forgive the ambiguity...

Arsenios