Clapping During Song

[jmacvols]

No, of course it doesn't. God didn't ordain you to use the internet either.

I don't use the internet when I sing.

No, there's no such law, and even if there was, we wouldn't be subject to it. God has certainly not given us such a law.

Sure there is, people use it mulitple times everyday. Some just don't want to see it in the bible.

You're applying that verse in an extremely creative manner which is not at all in line with the rest of what the bible teaches. For example, that God looks to the heart. Or that we are not under the law, but yet you've made up a law, about clapping, of all things!

Can you explain what Paul meant when he said not to go beyond that which is written?
I can find in the NT where God said to sing, can you show me where He said to sing and clap?

We're not God's mechanics, we are His children.

Do you have kids? Have you ordained a special way for them to honour you? Can they only give you drawings that don't contain the colour green, for example, or else you won't accept it?

I never said we are God's mechanic, I was showing an example of how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. People use it everyday, yet some choose to ignore it when it comes to the bible.

Clapping aids in singing, it adds nothing to what God has said which is 'sing".

It's an addition. Again, in what verse did God say to sing and clap?

Yes, and we aren't under it. We are dead to it. The law is the power of sin. So since we are free from the law, we are also free from sin. You can still try to live according to the law, of course, if you want. But you will only find that the law is still the power of sin, and that when the commandment comes, sin springs to life, and you end up condemned.

I was referencing the NT law which we are under. If we are not under any law, then there is no such thing as sin.

It is to some. Others will take offense if you don't drink. For example, it's custom in a lot of southern european countries to serve a little liqour before the food, or wine that goes with it. Refusing it is offensive to the host.

If it is sin to you, then it is sin to you.

Drunkeness is a sin for anyone and everyone, it has nothing to do with custom.

The NT doesn't authorize stuff. The NT isn't a law book. It's a testament. It's the gospel accounts, it's the gospel revealed, it's personal letter with teaching from Paul and Peter etc, as well as prophesies. It is not some sort of rule book. If you read it as a rule book, you're reading it completely wrong. And if it was a rule book, it would be the most unclear and least sensible and hard to dechipher rule book ever written.

The NT does contain law, again Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4, where there is no law there is no sin. If we are not under NT law, then there is no such thing as sin today. BUt since there is such a thing as sin today, we are under NT law, James 1:25; Gal 6:2.

 

[jmacvols]

And He won't accept anything else...? Are you for real? Why is it you think God is so weird about stuff like that? Jesus compared God to earthly fathers and said "even if you who are evil know to give your children good things..." - but yet, you apparently believe that God has these weird quirks about singing and clapping. It doesn't figure, and it certainly doesn't resemble any kind of father/child relationship known to man. It looks more like a psychopatic dictators demands from his subjects, like when Chairman Mao ordered peasants to rip the grass out of the ground.

God didn't accept Nadab and Abihu's sacrifice. Do you really think you can force things on God that He did not ask for?

Neither "Spirit" nor "truth" are synonymous with "song". There is certainly no Spirit or truth in reducing worship to some sort of religious excercise in fear of offending some funny quirky distant God. How on earth do you reconcile your view of God with the God who came as a man and died naked on a cross? How do you reconcile it with the man who let a harlot wash His feet with tears and dry them with her hair?

Jn 4:24 says worship must be done in Spirit and in truth. Singing is part of worship, so it must be done is spirit and truth.

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/philippians_31ff_regulated_worship

I posted the above link before. God's word is truth, so worship must conform to God's word. As the link states, those that think they can improvise their own worship are innovators, will-worshippers and are not worshpping God in truth.

 

[jmacvols]

Do you think that would offend God?

A person not offering ther best to God is an offence. So you think people can relegate God to second place in their lives? If one does not have to do his best for God in one area, then he does not have to give his best in any area. One can practice Chrsitianity only when it is convienient, to his own liking and as long as it does not put them to much trouble. Was it an offence to God when people offered less than the best of the flock to God, was offering the lame, sick and blind an offence, Malachi 1? I know this is an OT example, but they are ensamples for us today, and where in the NT does it say God will accept a person's second best?

 

[jmacvols]

I will give the person the benefit of the doubt for what they were wearing. How do you think the other priests at the temple would have greeted the fellow priest that showed up late, haft dressed, dirty and bloody, if that priest on his way to the temple, had stopped on the road to help the man that was left half dead, gotten dirty and loaned him half his clothes?

As I said before there are sometimes extenuating circumstances beyond ones' control. What about the person who has plenty of time before going to worship to decide what to wear but wears his old, worn work clothes while leaving his better clothes in the closet?

 

[jmacvols]

Does your wife/mother ever wear clothes that show any of her skin below her neck?
That could be reveling to someone in the fellowship that was from Thailand.
Reveling is a very relative term. What some consider reveling is normal dress to others. Long pants, sleeveless dresses, showing your angles, and showing your face on a woman was/is consider “reveling” to some.
How far down can the neckline go and how high up can the slit in the dress go before it is sin?

A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

 

[jmacvols]

I work third shift, and get off at 8:00 AM Sunday morning.
I wear "old work clothes" to church the weeks I am working because I just got off work and barely have time to eat breakfast before I have to turn around and go to church for the service, which starts at 9:00.

Thus said, you basically called me immodest because I don't have time to change between work and church.

I said there are circumstances that are beyond a person's control, I am not talking about these kind of circumstances. I am talking about those with plenty of time before worship to decide what to wear.

 

[holo]

I don't use the internet when I sing.

But you use songbooks. Where did God ordain that?

Sure there is, people use it mulitple times everyday. Some just don't want to see it in the bible.

Where exactly in the bible is this law to be found?

Can you explain what Paul meant when he said not to go beyond that which is written?

Well, he's most certainly not talking about singing and clapping. What exactly the subject matter is may be discussed, but it is clearly not about what you're suggesting.

I can find in the NT where God said to sing, can you show me where He said to sing and clap?

Can you show me where He said to sing and read song books?

I never said we are God's mechanic

No, but you compared our relationship to Him with the one you have with your mechanic, which is just way off base. God Himself describes it as a Father/child relationship, not a business relationship.

I was showing an example of how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. People use it everyday, yet some choose to ignore it when it comes to the bible.

Yes, because we're not actually under any such law. People may use it every day. That doesn't mean God does.

It's an addition.

So is reading song books.

Again, in what verse did God say to sing and clap?

In what verse did God say not to?

I was referencing the NT law which we are under. If we are not under any law, then there is no such thing as sin.

The NT isn't a law book, and there's no such thing as "NT law". The law is in the OT, it belongs to the old covenant. We're not in a covenant based on law, but on promise. On grace, not on works. On Christ, not on us. On heart, not outward appearance. On Spirit and truth, not on religion.

And yes, apart from the commandment, sin is dead. The commandment is the power of sin. Therefore, to be free from the commandment is to be free from sin. The law is, after all, the ministry of death, not of life.

Drunkeness is a sin for anyone and everyone, it has nothing to do with custom.

I wasn't talking about drunkenness though

The NT does contain law, again Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4, where there is no law there is no sin.

Exactly. Therefore, the further you get away from the law, the further you get away from sin. Just like Adam and Eve were, originally. They were free from sin until the commandment came. Sin took advantage of the commandment.

If we are not under NT law, then there is no such thing as sin today.

No such thing as sin in that which is born of God, yes.

How do you figure a God who decided to become man and die naked on a cross, will accept or reject your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

 

[holo]

God didn't accept Nadab and Abihu's sacrifice. Do you really think you can force things on God that He did not ask for?

No. So I will worship Him in Spirit and Truth and honesty, not in religious exercise and meaningless man-made rules such as "thou shalt not clap" which not only doesn't make any sense, but also lack any biblical basis.

God has never asked you not to clap your hands. It's really unfathomable that you can actually read what Jesus said and did, and what the epistles say about the gospel and the nature of God, and still manage to reduce worship to something as petty and unholy as a rule about clapping.

Jn 4:24 says worship must be done in Spirit and in truth. Singing is part of worship, so it must be done is spirit and truth.

And how exactly does "in Spirit and truth" translate to "thou shalt not clap thine hands"?

Is there even a particular reason God doesn't like clapping? Or is He just whimsical?

I posted the above link before. God's word is truth, so worship must conform to God's word. As the link states, those that think they can improvise their own worship are innovators, will-worshippers and are not worshpping God in truth.

And yet here you are, not only improvising your very own type of worship, but even trying to pass it on as law from God Himself! And you warn others not to "go beyond what is written"!

 

[holo]

A person not offering ther best to God is an offence.

And not clapping your hands is "your best"...?

So you think people can relegate God to second place in their lives?

No, I think the very idea that God can have a "place" in your life is really an insult to the Lord. He's not to have a certain place in your life. He IS your life.

If one does not have to do his best for God in one area, then he does not have to give his best in any area. One can practice Chrsitianity

I think this is the core of the problem - "practicing christianity". The whole concept of "practicing christianity" is a religious concept that has nothing to do with the gospel. You don't "practice" Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ IS our life, He IS the truth, He IS the way, He IS our righteousness and our hope and our salvation.

Was it an offence to God when people offered less than the best of the flock to God, was offering the lame, sick and blind an offence, Malachi 1? I know this is an OT example, but they are ensamples for us today, and where in the NT does it say God will accept a person's second best?

God doesn't "accept" second bests or even first bests. He died for us while we were still sinners and His enemies. If you want to try and please God with your behaviour and your religion, go back to the old covenant and try to keep that, and remember how Jesus raised the bar of the law, because that's what you'll have to do if you want to actually please God.

Fortunately for us, the gospel isn't about us managing to please God, but to believe in Him whom has already pleased Him! Why do christians, of all people, believe that they can actually make themselves approvable to God? And why do they think they can do so by not clapping or not using drums or wearing earrings or whatever?

 

[holo]

As I said before there are sometimes extenuating circumstances beyond ones' control. What about the person who has plenty of time before going to worship to decide what to wear but wears his old, worn work clothes while leaving his better clothes in the closet?

Yes, what about him? Is God going to be offended or disapointed? Will God perhaps accept me even if all my jeans are torn? Will He perhaps lend me His ear if I take a long shower and wear nice clothes and is the first one to church and haven't clapped hands in a month? That must certainly make God a little more benevolent toward me, because it's not like He looks to my heart or knows my innermost thoughts or anything...

 

[jmacvols]

But you use songbooks. Where did God ordain that?

All songbooks do is get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics so things can be done decently and in order. I do not have the lyrics to songs memorized, so I need a book with the lyrics. So even though I use a songbook, the net result is all I am doing is singing, which is all God said for me to do, nothing more.

Where exactly in the bible is this law to be found?

When the Lord instituted the Lord's Supper He used unleaven bread and fruit of the vine. Would it be alright to substitute cokes and hot dogs?

Well, he's most certainly not talking about singing and clapping. What exactly the subject matter is may be discussed, but it is clearly not about what you're suggesting.

Proof?
Things that are "written" is reference to God's word and God's wrod says to sing, not sing and clap.

Can you show me where He said to sing and read song books?

I explained this above. When one sings from a songbook is he doing anything more than singing? No. A songbook is an aid to singing not an addition like clapping or instruments.

No, but you compared our relationship to Him with the one you have with your mechanic, which is just way off base. God Himself describes it as a Father/child relationship, not a business relationship.

The point of the mechanic example was to show how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. Did you see how it works in that example? How about this. You manage a business and hire a new employee and tell that new employee to be at work before 8:00Am sharp tomorrow morning. Eight in the morning comes, but the new employee does not show and you get behind with your work and get in trouble with the owner of the business. Finally at 4:00Pm the new employee shows up for work. You tell him that that you said for him to be there before 8:00Am. He says "But you didn't say not be here at 4:00Pm". Get the point? You did not have to exclude every other time, all you have to say is be there before 8:00Am that excluded him showing up at 4:00Pm. When you tell someone to be there at 8:00Am you expect them to be there at eight not four. WHen God says to sing, He expects people to sing not anything else. Do you want people to treat the words from your mouth as some treat God's words?

Yes, because we're not actually under any such law. People may use it every day. That doesn't mean God does.

We most certainly are. From the above example, if you are to be at work at 8:00Am in the morning, show up at 4:00Pm and when the owner/manager ask why you are late, say "you never specifically said for me not to show up at 4:00PM". Let us know how it goes over.

So is reading song books.

How so? God said sing, and if I am singing lyrics from a book, am I doing more than what God said? No. When God gives a command, He gives us the authority needed to carry out that command. No reason to give us a command then not give us the authority to use those things to carry out that command. Songbooks are used in carrying out that command, they add nothing to what God said. The bible says the disciples came together upon the first day of the week. If we are to follow their example, then we too are to come together upon the first day of the week. For us to 'come together' and follow their example we need a place to come together, so a building or some other structure is needed in order to follow this biblical example.

In what verse did God say not to?

He did not have to say "not to". When He said sing that excludes clapping. Again its called the law of inclusion and exclusion. A mother is going to bake a pie and needs some eggs. She gives her son enough money and tells him to go to the grocery and bring her back some eggs. If he does what she says, what will he bring back? Eggs. If he brings back something other than eggs he did not do what she authorized him. The mother did not have to make a list a mile long of things not to get until she excluded everything in the store but eggs, all she has to say is get eggs that includes eggs and excludes getting anything else.

The NT isn't a law book, and there's no such thing as "NT law". The law is in the OT, it belongs to the old covenant. We're not in a covenant based on law, but on promise. On grace, not on works. On Christ, not on us. On heart, not outward appearance. On Spirit and truth, not on religion.

YOu are simply wrong on this point. The NT also contains law. Explain Gal 6:2.
Are you saying religion does not matter? Are you saying obedience (works) do not matter?

And yes, apart from the commandment, sin is dead. The commandment is the power of sin. Therefore, to be free from the commandment is to be free from sin. The law is, after all, the ministry of death, not of life.

The bible says sin is transgression of the law. If no law exist today, then there is nothing to transgress and sin does not exist. DO you think sin does not exist today?

I wasn't talking about drunkenness though [

Exactly. Therefore, the further you get away from the law, the further you get away from sin. Just like Adam and Eve were, originally. They were free from sin until the commandment came. Sin took advantage of the commandment.

Exactly how does one "get away from the law"?

No such thing as sin in that which is born of God, yes.

SO those born of God are perfectly sinless? 1 Jn 1:8.

How do you figure a God who decided to become man and die naked on a cross, will accept or reject your worship based on whether or not you clap your hands?

I can read His word,the bible which is truth and that lets me know how to worship in truth. Those that think they can worship God apart form the bible are those trying to worship according to their own feelings and opinions, will-woshippers, seeking to please themselves and not God.

 

[bling]

A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

That is really easy to say. Some middle men seem to think that is anything less then a burqa would be to reveling so that is what you are saying. You have to dress so no man anywhere could possible “lust” after you?

 

[bling]

As I said before there are sometimes extenuating circumstances beyond ones' control. What about the person who has plenty of time before going to worship to decide what to wear but wears his old, worn work clothes while leaving his better clothes in the closet?

Would I not have to talk with them and not just judge their motive?

 

[holo]

All songbooks do is get everyone on the same page singing the same lyrics so things can be done decently and in order.

That's all clapping does as well. It helps keep the rhythm. Why is it OK to use songbooks but not clapping?

I do not have the lyrics to songs memorized, so I need a book with the lyrics.

So what? According to your "law of inclusion and exclusion," reading during worship, or using any form of tool to aid in singing, is against God's will.

When the Lord instituted the Lord's Supper He used unleaven bread and fruit of the vine. Would it be alright to substitute cokes and hot dogs?

Yes, of course, if that's what is available. A lot of people here in Scandinavia can't drink wine without offense, so at the very least it'll have to be alcohol-free, even though Jesus and the disciples drank real wine. If you can't eat anything but exactly what Jesus ate, how can you walk in shoes when He probably used sandals? How come you can pick and choose when this "law of inclusion and exlusion" applies?

Proof?
Things that are "written" is reference to God's word and God's wrod says to sing, not sing and clap.

What specific passage are you talking about?

I explained this above. When one sings from a songbook is he doing anything more than singing? No.

Yes. One is reading. Don't you think God gets a little sad when you can't even remember what you're supposed to sing?

The point of the mechanic example was to show how the law of inclusion and exclusion works. Did you see how it works in that example?

Yes. I also see that there's no such law in the bible or in the kingdom of God.

How about this. You manage a business and hire a new employee and tell that new employee to be at work before 8:00Am sharp tomorrow morning. Eight in the morning comes, but the new employee does not show and you get behind with your work and get in trouble with the owner of the business. Finally at 4:00Pm the new employee shows up for work. You tell him that that you said for him to be there before 8:00Am. He says "But you didn't say not be here at 4:00Pm". Get the point? You did not have to exclude every other time, all you have to say is be there before 8:00Am that excluded him showing up at 4:00Pm. When you tell someone to be there at 8:00Am you expect them to be there at eight not four.

Yes, but again we're not God's employees, we're His children. Would you use this same principle if your kids picked some flowers for you or wrote "love you dad!! on a card?

It's really quite disturbing that you're equating God with some company owner, and yourself with some completely senseless and obviously mentally retarted employee.

Do you want people to treat the words from your mouth as some treat God's words?

How do "some" treat God's words?

We most certainly are. From the above example, if you are to be at work at 8:00Am in the morning

The above example says absolutely nothing about our relationship with God.

The bible says the disciples came together upon the first day of the week. If we are to follow their example, then we too are to come together upon the first day of the week.

Yes, but why should we follow their example? Why not come together on, say, a wednesday, if that's more practical for us? Why do you think that something written in the bible is automatically some sort of rule for you to follow? And how do you pick exactly which things to take as law, and which things you can ignore?

For us to 'come together' and follow their example we need a place to come together, so a building or some other structure is needed in order to follow this biblical example.

But you don't think that perhaps the point here is that they came together, not that they did so in a particular building or on a certain day?

Would you make some rule that unless your kid talked to you only on thursdays, you would be offended at the child?

He did not have to say "not to". When He said sing that excludes clapping.

What kind of twisted logic is that? When you order a hamburger, does that exclude ketchup?

Again its called the law of inclusion and exclusion. A mother is going to bake a pie and needs some eggs. She gives her son enough money and tells him to go to the grocery and bring her back some eggs. If he does what she says, what will he bring back? Eggs. If he brings back something other than eggs he did not do what she authorized him. The mother did not have to make a list a mile long of things not to get until she excluded everything in the store but eggs, all she has to say is get eggs that includes eggs and excludes getting anything else.

Sure, but why are you comparing worshipping God with getting eggs for your mom? It's not the same thing by a far shot.

YOu are simply wrong on this point. The NT also contains law. Explain Gal 6:2.

Fulfilling the law of Christ, you mean? What does that have to do with clapping your hands? Do you think the "law of Christ" is some list of random stuff God prefers, for no clear reason? Does singing, or refraining from clapping, have anything to do with bearing each other's burdens, as the first part of the verse says?

Are you saying religion does not matter?

Religion doesn't impress God, and it has never helped anyone. Faith, on the other hand...

Are you saying obedience (works) do not matter?

Obedience matters. Making up random laws not found in the bible, based on the "law of inclusion and exclusion", from a testament that warns AGAINST subjecting yourself to such rules as "taste not, handle not", does NOT matter. Not to God, anyway. Do you honestly believe God is upset with me because I clap?

The bible says sin is transgression of the law.

Yes, and it also says that sin existed long before the law, and that sin is everything that is not of faith, and that we aren't under the law, and that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.

If no law exist today, then there is nothing to transgress and sin does not exist. DO you think sin does not exist today?

The law exists, but we are dead. We were in Adam, we were sinners by birth. Then we came to faith and were crucified with Christ. And born again, this time of God. We are, as Paul says, dead to the law. The law has no claim on us. The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the righteous.

Exactly how does one "get away from the law"?

By believing on Christ. When we do that, we are "baptised into His death" as Paul puts it. The only way to get away from the law is by dying.

SO those born of God are perfectly sinless?

Yes, of course they are. Whoever is born of God cannot sin.

1 Jn 1:8.

Yes, He has purified us from all unrighteousness. If there was any unrighteousness left, we wouldn't go to heaven.

I can read His word,the bible which is truth and that lets me know how to worship in truth. Those that think they can worship God apart form the bible are those trying to worship according to their own feelings and opinions, will-woshippers, seeking to please themselves and not God.

Which is pretty much what you're doing when you're reducing "Spirit and truth" to be a certain movement with your hands. BTW, what exactly can you do when you sing? Can you close your eyes? Tap your foot? How many songs must you sing? How long must you sing for? Which songs exactly can you sing? Can you improvise a song?

 

[bling]

Holo,
You might want to include the fact that we use four part harmony today and back then there was no four part harmony.

 

[Gabby2]

Originally Posted by jmacvols
A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

So how much/what type of clothing is that? A burqa, perhaps? With the complete head scarf so that no hair is showing (since some guys lust when they see hair)? Must also cover the eyes, since they can be revealing, and cause lust.

At the same time, since you are so concerned about *women* not wearing *anything* that could possibly cause lust - what about men? Granted, I know that women don't have the problem with being visually turned on that men do, but let me tell you - if I see a guy wearing pants that fit just *right*, a shirt that reveals his physique....you get my drift...in fact now that I think of it - when I was single, in order to avoid my having lustful thoughts, I'd have to ask that you men also wear loose clothes - maybe a burqa with *loose* pants underneath.

The road goes both ways, you know - unless YOU are wearing clothes that don't potentially cause a woman to lust, you shouldn't expect women to do that for men!

 

[jmacvols]

That is really easy to say. Some middle men seem to think that is anything less then a burqa would be to reveling so that is what you are saying. You have to dress so no man anywhere could possible “lust” after you?

Yes, the bible calls it shamefacedness.

 

[jmacvols]

That's all clapping does as well. It helps keep the rhythm. Why is it OK to use songbooks but not clapping?

Clapping And singing are not the same thing, ask any child. When God commanded singing, He gives the authority to use aids to carry that command out, hence songbooks are aids. God nowhere said to sing and clap.

So what? According to your "law of inclusion and exclusion," reading during worship, or using any form of tool to aid in singing, is against God's will.

The law of inclusion and exclusion is a part of logic which you apparently choose to ignore or only see when it's convenient. Teaching/preaching is a part of worship which included reading the bible. Those in Thessolonica studied the scriptures daily to see if those things were so, could they do this without reading the scriptures? Your "rational" falls short.

Yes, of course, if that's what is available. A lot of people here in Scandinavia can't drink wine without offense, so at the very least it'll have to be alcohol-free, even though Jesus and the disciples drank real wine. If you can't eat anything but exactly what Jesus ate, how can you walk in shoes when He probably used sandals? How come you can pick and choose when this "law of inclusion and exlusion" applies?

What I underlined above speaks for itself. Jesus used unleaven bread and fruit of the vine yet you think you can change what Jesus instituted. It's all about what holo wants not what the Lord wants.

What specific passage are you talking about?

Paul told the Corinthians not to go above that which is written. That which is written in the bible is "sing", you go above that by trying to add clapping.

Yes. One is reading. Don't you think God gets a little sad when you can't even remember what you're supposed to sing?

Where is it written that I have to memorize every lyric to every song? Do you have the entire bible memorized?

Yes. I also see that there's no such law in the bible or in the kingdom of God.

The law of inclusion/exclusion is in the bible your denial does not make it go away.

Yes, but again we're not God's employees, we're His children. Would you use this same principle if your kids picked some flowers for you or wrote "love you dad!! on a card?

It's really quite disturbing that you're equating God with some company owner, and yourself with some completely senseless and obviously mentally retarted employee.

You are apparently are not reading what I posted. Nowhere did I say we are God's employees or that God owns a company. I gave common, everyday examples of the law of inclusion/exclusion and instead of addressing them, you avoided them and falsely accuse me of something I did not say. The examples prove that everyone frequently uses the law of inclusion/exclusion yet you chose to ignore it for it completely refutes what you are trying to do.

How do "some" treat God's words?

Not as well as they treat their own words. People can understand, and expect others to understand, the law of inclusion/exclusion when they use it, but want to ignore when God uses it.

The above example says absolutely nothing about our relationship with God.

I gave an example of the law of inclusion/exclusion and you choose to avoid it, again.

Yes, but why should we follow their example? Why not come together on, say, a wednesday, if that's more practical for us? Why do you think that something written in the bible is automatically some sort of rule for you to follow? And how do you pick exactly which things to take as law, and which things you can ignore?

What I highlighted above speaks for itself, you have no respect for bible authority, you only do what pleases holo and not God. Can you show us a biblical example of the church meeting on a day other than the first day of the week?

But you don't think that perhaps the point here is that they came together, not that they did so in a particular building or on a certain day?

Would you make some rule that unless your kid talked to you only on thursdays, you would be offended at the child?

What kind of twisted logic is that? When you order a hamburger, does that exclude ketchup?

the law of inclusion/exclusion is part of logic, you need to do some studying about it. Google it.

Sure, but why are you comparing worshipping God with getting eggs for your mom? It's not the same thing by a far shot.

I didn't, you falsely accuse me again of something I did not do. I gave another example of a common use of the law of inclsuion/exclusion and you ignore it. You obviously do not want to deal with the facts.

Fulfilling the law of Christ, you mean? What does that have to do with clapping your hands? Do you think the "law of Christ" is some list of random stuff God prefers, for no clear reason? Does singing, or refraining from clapping, have anything to do with bearing each other's burdens, as the first part of the verse says?

THe NT is the law of Christ and if the NT says sing then that's the "law", yet you choose to ignore it anyway.

Religion doesn't impress God, and it has never helped anyone. Faith, on the other hand...

James 1:27.

Obedience matters. Making up random laws not found in the bible, based on the "law of inclusion and exclusion", from a testament that warns AGAINST subjecting yourself to such rules as "taste not, handle not", does NOT matter. Not to God, anyway. Do you honestly believe God is upset with me because I clap?

THe law of inclusion/excluison exists, you can ignore it when you like but you can't get rid of it.
God is upset when people disobey Him. WHen He said sing and people instead clap-- thats disobedience.
Again is worship about what God wants or is about what satisfies holo? Should we all stop reading the bible to see what God wants and just listen to you? This seems to be what you are trying to say.

Yes, and it also says that sin existed long before the law, and that sin is everything that is not of faith, and that we aren't under the law, and that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under it.

We are under the NT law and when the NT says sing and one claps then he is transgressing the law.

The law exists, but we are dead. We were in Adam, we were sinners by birth. Then we came to faith and were crucified with Christ. And born again, this time of God. We are, as Paul says, dead to the law. The law has no claim on us. The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for the righteous.

No one is born a sinner, this is a false idea of Calvinism. Eccl 7:29 God made man upright, but man has gone about seeking inventions.

By believing on Christ. When we do that, we are "baptised into His death" as Paul puts it. The only way to get away from the law is by dying.

No verse says such, only Christ by dying on the cross could remove the OT law.

Yes, of course they are. Whoever is born of God cannot sin.

John said that if you say you have no sin you deceive yourself and truth is not in you, 1 Jn 1:8. You do not understand 1 jn 3:9.

Yes, He has purified us from all unrighteousness. If there was any unrighteousness left, we wouldn't go to heaven.

1 Jn 1:8 proves all are sinners, no one is perfectly sinless.

Which is pretty much what you're doing when you're reducing "Spirit and truth" to be a certain movement with your hands. BTW, what exactly can you do when you sing? Can you close your eyes? Tap your foot? How many songs must you sing? How long must you sing for? Which songs exactly can you sing? Can you improvise a song?

Again you ignore the bible and will only do what please holo. We are to worship in truth, Gods word is truth so we are to worship by what God said in the bible and all God said was sing. Of course you won't accept God's authority on the matter anyway.

 

[jmacvols]

Originally Posted by jmacvols
A person should be clothed enough not to cause another to lust.

So how much/what type of clothing is that? A burqa, perhaps? With the complete head scarf so that no hair is showing (since some guys lust when they see hair)? Must also cover the eyes, since they can be revealing, and cause lust.

At the same time, since you are so concerned about *women* not wearing *anything* that could possibly cause lust - what about men? Granted, I know that women don't have the problem with being visually turned on that men do, but let me tell you - if I see a guy wearing pants that fit just *right*, a shirt that reveals his physique....you get my drift...in fact now that I think of it - when I was single, in order to avoid my having lustful thoughts, I'd have to ask that you men also wear loose clothes - maybe a burqa with *loose* pants underneath.

The road goes both ways, you know - unless YOU are wearing clothes that don't potentially cause a woman to lust, you shouldn't expect women to do that for men!

Yes I believe both men and women should dress approprately, shamefacedness applies to both.

 

[Gabby2]

So - how do you dress in a way that avoids lust for the women? If you expect women to wear loose fitting *dresses* that avoid giving shape to the female figure, do *you* also wear shapeless clothes that do not give shape to your male, uh, shape?