Christianity Made Easy

[KatherineOCA]

I-are-sceptical,
"Prove" is a "mind thing". Minds are great tools for figuring out deducing and other tasks suitable for minds. Faith is not a matter of mind...it is a matter of Heart and of experience and how one interprets that experience. I believe that God can act anonymously in one's life and He is acting in everyone's life. I have been a non-Christian in the past....God acted in my life anyway. I see that now....We are told that one cannot "figure God out"...He is ineffable, incomprehensible, etc. WE are also told that what we can know about God can be seen in what God has made...but most profoundly in Jesus Christ who is the image, the "icon" of God, who is His Father. Can I "prove" that with logic or with science...no. Can I experience it , "yes". God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us. If you want God, God will reveal Himself to you....And it is God who judges us...not the other way around. And He always judges with mercy.... Ohhhhhh....I just thought of something that may be helpful...the lives of the saints...The saints are those whose lives witness to the truth of the claims...those whose lives have been tranformed by Christ and His love and who thereby are demonstrations of Reality. Finally, the proof is one's own life ..... hopefully you can try an AA program or other 12 step program that can give you some support for your task..God bless you, dear

 

[I_are_sceptical]

I-are-sceptical,
"Prove" is a "mind thing". Minds are great tools for figuring out deducing and other tasks suitable for minds. Faith is not a matter of mind...it is a matter of Heart and of experience and how one interprets that experience.

My current religious membership is based on logic and reason. IMO converting me to Christianity will take the same methods.

Secondly, why would I accept on faith that my religion is false?

I have been a non-Christian in the past....God acted in my life anyway.

I belong to a specific religion which (I believe) began just over 160 years ago with a direct Revelation from God. That is why I call myself a non-Christian.

WE are also told that what we can know about God can be seen in what God has made...but most profoundly in Jesus Christ who is the image, the "icon" of God, who is His Father.

Is it possible for God to reveal Himself through other religions?

I just thought of something that may be helpful...the lives of the saints...The saints are those whose lives witness to the truth of the claims...those whose lives have been tranformed by Christ and His love and who thereby are demonstrations of Reality.

Are there saints in non-Christian religions which prove those religions to be True?

hopefully you can try an AA program or other 12 step program that can give you some support for your task

I'm confused by this advice. Exactly what do you think my task is?

God bless you, dear

Thank you. Welcome to Christian Forums.

 

[KatherineOCA]

Sorry, I am not sophistated in the use of this mean of communication. Thanks for your patience.
1. Since, in the Tradition from which I am speaking, God is Truth, i.e. Reality, whatever is true is somehow related to God. Unless what you believe is utterly false and out-of-reality, your faith whatever it contains Truth and is not false. The NT in the writings of St. Paul, affirms that in Romans 1 -2. Those who love God will be lead by God toward union with Himself Many have noted that the religions of the world have many commonalities in teaching. Those who love God when they "see Christ" will know Him as the One Whom they seek. Unfortunately, Christians in our sinfulness and failings are not helpful and in fact it may be that by rejecting the lovelessness shown my some Christians, this may be to one's credit.

 

[KatherineOCA]

"Why accept on faith/". Our minds are very limited. There is much we do not know and a great deal we think we "know" that is untrue or distorted. Science is by its nature tentative and awaits further information. Often what is stated as a fact in science today becomes out-moded tomorrow or even found to be quite untrue.
Faith acts and in that action proves its validity. For example, the martyrs of Christianity as an example "proved" their confidence that true life is not limited to this mortal existance by their lack of fear of the threat and the actuality of their executions by various means. It was this witness that in itself says that there is more to our lives than what is visable and tangible. This has happened not only in the Roman times, but more recently during the Soviet Years in Russia and not doubt even today in places we are ignoring.

 

[KatherineOCA]

My non-Christian time what spent as a Baha'i-7 years. The time frame is similar.
The claim of Christianity is a revelation not in words (for He is the Word, the Logos of God) or a book, but in God's self disclosure of Himself in a Person. God became a Man, the God-Man Jesus, who lived His Life and shared our suffering without giving in to Evil even once, but was obedient to God even to death and was victorious over all that Evil could do and by His Resurrection trampled down Death itself. His Ascension into Heaven takes all of humanity there who want it. God has revealed Himself...that God loves and pours out Himself to us. As I live my life, to the extent it is empowered by the Holy Spirit, it is possible to experience that Reality, not as a story to be "believed".

 

[KatherineOCA]

The 12 step idea. I thought you had taken as a"task" to seek God or a "spiritual awakening". Some people have found the 12 step programs to be helpful with that. If it is not a helpful idea...forget it. No worries, mate.
May God guide you. Thanks for your patience, dear Readers.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Those who love God will be lead by God toward union with Himself Many have noted that the religions of the world have many commonalities in teaching. Those who love God when they "see Christ" will know Him as the One Whom they seek.

Are you saying that all the people who have been led to religious Leaders other than Jesus do not truly love God?

"Why accept on faith/". Our minds are very limited. There is much we do not know and a great deal we think we "know" that is untrue or distorted. Science is by its nature tentative and awaits further information. Often what is stated as a fact in science today becomes out-moded tomorrow or even found to be quite untrue.

Are you saying that ALL the evidence I have found by logic and reason should be discarded and I should accept your beliefs on faith? Even if I do accept a religion on faith, what about the beliefs of other religions?

Faith acts and in that action proves its validity. For example, the martyrs of Christianity as an example "proved" their confidence that true life is not limited to this mortal existance by their lack of fear of the threat and the actuality of their executions by various means. It was this witness that in itself says that there is more to our lives than what is visable and tangible. This has happened not only in the Roman times, but more recently during the Soviet Years in Russia and not doubt even today in places we are ignoring.

If someone is martyred for a non-Christian religion, does that prove the other religion to be true?

The claim of Christianity is a revelation not in words (for He is the Word, the Logos of God) or a book, but in God's self disclosure of Himself in a Person. God became a Man, the God-Man Jesus, who lived His Life and shared our suffering without giving in to Evil even once, but was obedient to God even to death and was victorious over all that Evil could do and by His Resurrection trampled down Death itself. His Ascension into Heaven takes all of humanity there who want it. God has revealed Himself...that God loves and pours out Himself to us. As I live my life, to the extent it is empowered by the Holy Spirit, it is possible to experience that Reality, not as a story to be "believed".

Okay. Accepting that God revealed Himself through Jesus, how does that fact disprove the claim of my religion?

I thought you had taken as a"task" to seek God or a "spiritual awakening".

My task is to find out what evidence Christians have that my religion is false.

May God guide you.

It has been my experience that when Christians say this it specifically means that they are not willing to try to answer my questions.

 

[Kamtre]

If you seek God with your heart, you will find Him. (matthew something) Finding God is the real true goal in life. If you find God, you find yourself. Even if you are a mormon (yes, im pretty sure that's the one) your goal should be to find God. And no the answer isn't "well god's beside me, so i found him.. OH WAIT! i just found me too! Im right here!" lol, just seek after God, and you will be ok

 

[djbcrawford]

I have just a couple of questions which if answered could help us answer your questions

My current religious membership is based on logic and reason. IMO converting me to Christianity will take the same methods.

1. Can you explain what the logic and reason was that led you to your current religious membership?

I belong to a specific religion which (I believe) began just over 160 years ago with a direct Revelation from God. That is why I call myself a non-Christian.

2. What does this religion have to say about Jesus Christ?

 

[I_are_sceptical]

just seek after God, and you will be ok

The Christians who keep telling me I MUST give up my religion, and do it immediately, do not agree that all I have to do is seek God. They want me to accept a long list of theological doctrines.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

1. Can you explain what the logic and reason was that led you to your current religious membership?

My reasons are the result of seven years of research. I couldn't possibly describe them all here, right now. But to start -- determine what proves Jesus to be true, and then apply those same proofs to my religion.

2. What does this religion have to say about Jesus Christ?

It says everything Jesus taught is God's Word, and God's attributes are seen in Jesus' personality.

I suppose there are other issues you want to know about.
Did He die for our sins? Yes.
Was He bodily resurrected? No. That should be interpreted spiritually, not physically.
Is Christianity God's final revelation? No.

 

[KatherineOCA]

Dear I-are- sceptical,
You stated that "my task is to find out what evidence Christians have that my religion is false". I believe I stated earlier all that I could say about it. God is Reality and Truth. This is not a smorgasbord of "truths of the day". God is Real, the only real Reality. Christians assert that God has revealed Himself to us in the God-Man Jesus Christ who lived in history and who lives now. I believe that as you are encouraged by your religion to love God and love others as yourself then you may very well be "not far from the Kingdom".
There is a statement somewhere in the Fathers of the Christian Church to the effect that we can say where we know the Holy Spirit is, but we cannot say where we know that He is not. I can tell you what I believe to be real, witness to that reality by my life to the greatest extent possible for me with God's help, and I can invite you to "taste and see that the Lord is good". Unfortunately I cannot "prove" anything to you if that is what you have set out as your task. This assumes that God is subject to human logic. It is the teaching of the Christian Church and my experience that human logic is just not up to the task of figuring out and judging God. God is incomprehensible, ineffable, eternally the same. Logic and reason are not God and are very very inadequate to understand God. Faith is not the ignoring of the truth in favor of insanity, but the recognition of the truth when it is "seen" and experienced.
And by the way...."May God guide you" is a prayer that God will guide you on your path....that is all. It is God who illumines our hearts whatever the expertise of the one answering the questions. I'm sorry that I must be included in that group that has disappointed you on your search.
Thanks for the welcome, by the way. And May God guide you.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Okay, KatherineOCA, thank you.

 

[djbcrawford]

My reasons are the result of seven years of research. I couldn't possibly describe them all here, right now.

Not really an answer. For example, did your seven years of research look at all religions and come to the conclusion that yours is the right one? Did you start with your current religion and use logic and reason to prove it is correct over the others? Were they all given a "truth" score and yours got the top marks? How objective were you? Did you choose a religion that ticked all the particular boxes you felt should be ticked? Was your current religion a reluctant choice or a happy choice? Without a deeper understanding of your thought processes, I have no way of knowing whether you are using logic to decide between a Honda and a Cadillac or truth over fiction.

But to start -- determine what proves Jesus to be true, and then apply those same proofs to my religion.

Rather than re-invent the wheel, your own research must have dismissed Christianity for a logical reason. It would be more practical to address these logical reasons along with the logical reasons you have chosen your own religion over Christianity.

It says everything Jesus taught is God's Word, and God's attributes are seen in Jesus' personality.

So when Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me", what did he mean if your religion presents another way? If you believe everything Christ taught is God's word, yet don't believe in Christianity, then how do you know what Jesus taught?

I suppose there are other issues you want to know about.
Did He die for our sins? Yes.

That's good, but does this mean he has paid the price for all our sins? Do we need to accept his payment on our behalf or is it ours regardless?

Was He bodily resurrected? No. That should be interpreted spiritually, not physically.

Why? Is there a logical reason he could not be physically resurrected? Do you believe he continued to exist after his resurrection as a definite personality whether physical or spiritual, or did he just die like everyone else and that was it, the old his ideals lived on cop-out? Did the people who claim to have see him afterwards lie, get it wrong or were they made up?

Is Christianity God's final revelation? No.

Depends what you mean by revelation. Spiritual knowledge or another way of salvation? I believe God reveals other ways to worship him and knowledge relating to specific circumstances, but all must lead to Christ, otherwise they would contradict each other. If God reveals spiritual knowledge to others outside of the Christian faith, why would he not want this revelation to lead to Christ? All faiths can produce moral laws, which may or may not be correct, but Christ came to fulfill and surpass the Law. By creating another law, we are taking a step back, even if the law is a good one. Christ will always be greater than the Law, so any moral law produced will always be below Christ. By inviting Jesus into our lives, we try to keep the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

did your seven years of research look at all religions and come to the conclusion that yours is the right one?

The purpose of my study was to compare only two religions, Christianity and the one I belonged to at that time, to be certain which of the two God wanted me to believe in.

Did you start with your current religion and use logic and reason to prove it is correct over the others?

Mine isn't correct above all others. I wanted to check the Christian claim that it is false.

Were they all given a "truth" score and yours got the top marks?

I wasn't checking to see if Christianity was true. That was a given.

How objective were you?

Completely. Any other approach would have been disrespectful to God.

Did you choose a religion that ticked all the particular boxes you felt should be ticked?

One religion answered all of my questions, the other answered none of them.

Was your current religion a reluctant choice or a happy choice?

A happy one.

your own research must have dismissed Christianity for a logical reason.

The only thing I dismissed is the idea that there are no other religions which are Revelations from God, equal to Christianity in every way.

It would be more practical to address these logical reasons along with the logical reasons you have chosen your own religion over Christianity.

Okay.

So when Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me", what did he mean if your religion presents another way?

My religion teaches that there are several religions which are just as true as Jesus' teachings. If that claim is correct, my beliefs do not conflict with Jesus' claim, because He is the Founder of those other religions, even if He is known by different names, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, etc.

If you believe everything Christ taught is God's word, yet don't believe in Christianity, then how do you know what Jesus taught?

The Founder of my group claims equality with Jesus, and that our teachings are God's Word. If that claim is true, God Himself is explaining the correct interpretation of Biblical teaching.

That's good, but does this mean he has paid the price for all our sins? Do we need to accept his payment on our behalf or is it ours regardless?

We need to accept it.

Is there a logical reason he could not be physically resurrected?

Perhaps not, but my religion teaches the Resurrection was not physical, and I accept the truth of that statement on faithy.

Do you believe he continued to exist after his resurrection as a definite personality whether physical or spiritual

Yes.

Did the people who claim to have see him afterwards lie, get it wrong or were they made up?

I don't know. But I accept the teachings of my religion, not the Gospel accounts.

Depends what you mean by revelation. Spiritual knowledge or another way of salvation?

God speaking to humanity. I suppose spiritual knowledge would be correct.

I believe

What is that to me? I want to follow God, not you.

God reveals other ways to worship him and knowledge relating to specific circumstances, but all must lead to Christ, otherwise they would contradict each other. If God reveals spiritual knowledge to others outside of the Christian faith, why would he not want this revelation to lead to Christ?

Is Judaism from God? The Jews do not agree their Scriptures lead to Jesus of Nazareth.

By creating another law, we are taking a step back

This is only true if some man made up my religion. If it is from God, humanity is taking a step forward.

By inviting Jesus into our lives

When Christians say this to me, they are telling me to give up my religion. Can you, or any other Christian anywhere on Earth, prove to my complete satisfaction that God wants me to be a Christian instead of belonging to a different religion?

 

[djbcrawford]

The purpose of my study was to compare only two religions, Christianity and the one I belonged to at that time, to be certain which of the two God wanted me to believe in.

Thank you for your concise answers. While there is some truth in what you say, I can see why some would tell you to give it up and choose Christianity. What it would seem to be is an amalgamation of the main big religions, trying to mix them up in a way that make's them all true - at least as true as they can be without contradicting each-other.

Mine isn't correct above all others. I wanted to check the Christian claim that it is false.

Your religion therefore appears to put forward the view then that all religions lead to God, or at least the ones you believe as good/true. If this is correct, we can pick the ones with the least rules and moral obligations - the easiest path.

I wasn't checking to see if Christianity was true. That was a given.

But since Christianity teaches that Jesus is the only way to salvation then it isn't true. Either that or you must believe it is being misrepresentated by it's teachers.

One religion answered all of my questions, the other answered none of them.

I wonder if you were asking the right questions?

A happy one.

Just curious about that one. Hell troubles me, but I believe it is the truth - whether literally or figuratively. It would be nice to believe that God let's us all off in the end, but God's Word tells us the opposite, so I have to reluctantly believe that.

The only thing I dismissed is the idea that there are no other religions which are Revelations from God, equal to Christianity in every way.

Do you believe that other religions can also be inspired by mistaken/greedy/evil people? Can other religions even be inspired by Satan and his minions? (the Devil can appear as an angel of light)

By accepting that all religions can be revelations from God, then you also have to accept that all religions can only be partly true at best and total codswallop at worst.

My religion teaches that there are several religions which are just as true as Jesus' teachings. If that claim is correct, my beliefs do not conflict with Jesus' claim, because He is the Founder of those other religions, even if He is known by different names, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, etc.

Yet none of those religions teach this themselves. In fact, despite having some (and only some) similar moral laws, they teach different and opposing truths about our existance, creation, salvation and purpose. Incidentally, this also explains why your religion rejects a physical resurrection. If Jesus has to be continually re-born over and over again to start these different religions, then he can't have a physical resurrection during his "Christianity phase" as this breaks the chain and makes Christianity special over all the others. Something your religion wants to deny, making it in opposition to Christianity.

The Founder of my group claims equality with Jesus, and that our teachings are God's Word. If that claim is true, God Himself is explaining the correct interpretation of Biblical teaching.

Yeah, I know a man who claims that as well, but I put it down to too many drugs in the 60's. Christianity does preach that Christ will return, but not as leader of some sect. In fact it says when he does return everyone will know who he is. It also warns of many who will claim to be Christ too.

We need to accept it.

It is good that this is preached as a truth, but how can the Muslim/Buddist/Jew accept it when their religion denies it?

Perhaps not, but my religion teaches the Resurrection was not physical, and I accept the truth of that statement on faithy.

See above, but I note this was not a decision based on logic like the others.

I don't know. But I accept the teachings of my religion, not the Gospel accounts.

But where do you get your accounts of Christ's teaching if you don't accept the gospel accounts.

What is that to me? I want to follow God, not you.

Quite right, but it would be extemely presumptious of me to say "God states..." over "I believe..."

Is Judaism from God? The Jews do not agree their Scriptures lead to Jesus of Nazareth.

Yes it is/was. It fulfilled it's purpose until Christ arrived. Judaism then became more of a nationality/race thing. Many early Christians were Jews, following Jewish traditions and customs, but were also Christians, believing in Christ.

This is only true if some man made up my religion. If it is from God, humanity is taking a step forward.

You are accepting the word of one man, who claims to be the re-incarnation of several other men. However none of these past re-incarnations felt it was necessary to mention this themselves. In fact, they seem to have spent most of their time teaching things to the contrary?

When Christians say this to me, they are telling me to give up my religion. Can you, or any other Christian anywhere on Earth, prove to my complete satisfaction that God wants me to be a Christian instead of belonging to a different religion?

If I could prove Christianity to your complete satisfaction I doubt i would be spending my time typing on a keyboard at 2.30am. I can only hope that some of what I said can add a piece to your puzzle. God wants you to find him and have a relationship with him. Sin gets in the way. Christianity teaches that Christ is the way through that, yet others have been justified through faith (e.g. Abraham). If you are as sincere in your search as you seem to be that may be enough, but if your search rejects Jesus or makes him out to be less than he is by introducing "other" Jesus's, then I fear you are treading a dangerous path.

 

[I_are_sceptical]

If I could prove Christianity to your complete satisfaction I doubt i would be spending my time typing on a keyboard at 2.30am. I can only hope that some of what I said can add a piece to your puzzle.

Either you, or someone else, can show me PROOF or Christians cannot. I could reply to each of your points but if you are not willing to try and convince me that serves no purpose.

The Baha'is answered my questions. They showed me PROOF. Christians either can't or won't. If one religion proves it's claims and the other does not, which should I believe is God's Will for my life?

 

[djbcrawford]

Either you, or someone else, can show me PROOF or Christians cannot. I could reply to each of your points but if you are not willing to try and convince me that serves no purpose.

Well, you claim the ground you stand on is firm and ask me to prove the ground I stand on is firmer. I'm merely pointing out that your patch of ground isn't that firm to begin with.

My points about your religion were made in response to the statements you made about it and flaws I saw in it's logic. I thought since you had asked for logical debate this would be acceptable.

The Baha'is answered my questions. They showed me PROOF. Christians either can't or won't. If one religion proves it's claims and the other does not, which should I believe is God's Will for my life?

What PROOF have you been given? Our church has seen people healed of sickness and delivered from addictions. Do you consider that proof?

Reminds me of a joke about 4 Rabbi debating a religious point. 3 of the Rabbi hold one view while the 4th holds the opposite view, but every time he tries to make his point the other 3 out-vote him 3 to 1. Finally in frustration he gets down on his knees and prays to God for a sign that he is right. As soon as he is finished praying, the earth shakes. Do you accept my view now he says? The other Rabbis reply however that the area they are in is notoriously unstable and prone to earth tremors and it proves nothing. So he gets on his knees again and prays to the Lord for a greater sign. Immediately he finishes a small cloud starts to form and a bolt of lightening hits a small tree next to them. He looks at his friends expectantly. Given the climate and air temperature that is not that unusual they reply. The Rabbi again falls to his knees and they have barely touched the ground when a voice booms out of heaven "HE'S RIGHT!".

After a moments stunned silence he says to his colleagues "Well, what do you say now?". They look at each-other and reply "Ahh, it's still only 3 to 2..."

So what do you consider proof?

If you are 100% sure about your religion why come on to a Christian Forum and ask us to convince you ours is correct? If you are here to gain converts for Bahai-ism, you seem very reluctant to share what it teaches and defend it from criticism. Have you made similar posts on Jewish or Muslim forums or just Christian ones? Is something pulling you in this direction?

 

[I_are_sceptical]

Well, you claim the ground you stand on is firm and ask me to prove the ground I stand on is firmer. I'm merely pointing out that your patch of ground isn't that firm to begin with.

Please present evidence that God agrees with your position.

My points about your religion were made in response to the statements you made about it and flaws I saw in it's logic. I thought since you had asked for logical debate this would be acceptable.

Simply because you see flaws in my logic does not convince me that you are right and my religion is wrong. Can you explain why *I* should see flaws in my logic?

What PROOF have you been given?

Studying the Baha'i Faith answered all of my questions. So far not one Christian has answered a single one of them. That shows, if I want answers, God wants me to go to the Baha'is, not to the Christians.

Our church has seen people healed of sickness and delivered from addictions. Do you consider that proof?

Proving Christianity to be true does not prove the Baha'i Faith to be false, any more than proving Judaism to be true proves that Christianity is false.

So what do you consider proof?

One thing only. You or any other Christian answering the questions that I have.

If you are 100% sure about your religion why come on to a Christian Forum and ask us to convince you ours is correct?

For many years Christians have been telling me to give up my religion. I am giving them every opportunity to prove to my complete satisfaction that God agrees with what they are saying.

If you are here to gain converts for Bahai-ism, you seem very reluctant to share what it teaches and defend it from criticism.

1. No, that is not why I am here. Besides, in thirty-five years as a Baha'i I have not gained even one convert. I'm discouraged, so these days I rarely attempt to try.
2. Forum rules do not allow me to share Baha'i teachings. Which, in addition to other such incidents, personally convinces me that Christians are deathly afraid of allowing us non-believers to consider other points of view.
3. I couldn't care less if non-Baha'is criticise my beliefs. I don't follow their personal opinions, I want to follow God. Let them show me proof that the Baha'i Faith is false and I will give it up.

Have you made similar posts on Jewish or Muslim forums or just Christian ones? Is something pulling you in this direction?

No Jew or Muslim has ever walked up to me on the street, or knocked on my door, and tried to convert me.

 

[KatherineOCA]

I_are_Sceptical:
Yes, I knew that I recognized the story! I too was a Bahai for seven years. I made pilgimage to Haifa and to Akka where the man called Bahaullah is buried in a tomb. There was a time going into the Bahai Faith that I too recognized that by doing so I was making a statement about Jesus that was not consistent with Christianity as Christianity has always been taught and understood by Christians and ratified by the Councils. At the time I was pretty casual about it.
One day someone presented me with the story from Acts 1 where the angels said to the disciples as He was ascending into heaven, Why are you staring into Heaven? This same Jesus who you saw going into heaven will come again." Again I was faced with that decision again. I discovered that I cannot judge God. (Very safe conclusion, it is God who judges me...thankfully. His judgement is always mercy).
I took the route of Jesus. The Logos and Word of God who became a human being and took on flesh. And yes I believe the Gospels. The NT, including the Gospels, are the Church's interpretation of the life of this Man Jesus of Nazereth. This is what the Church believes about Him. We do believe that the OT (all of it including the so-called Apocrapha) is a "pedagos" to Christ and is about Him (in type).
We cannot stand on the outside and judge what is on the inside...that is not faith. We must immerse ourselves in the Way and by living it and by seeing the effect of the Way on the lives of others (saints) and thereby determine the truth of it.
In effect this is what you do with Bahai daily. You live it (hopefully or you are experiencing a deep rift between your self and what you say to yourself that you are). By that you know the truth of it or not. Gnosticism whether is is 2nd-3rd Century or 19th-20th-21st century still separates the body from the spirit and says that God cannot and did not become incarnate in a human body that He has created (Arius). That Jesus Christ was a creature. Christians, including Athenasius and the Nicene Council dispute that to their deaths. Jesus Christ is divine with the same divinity as His Father, God who begot from all eternity, and He is fully Human with the humanity we all share because He was born from his human Mother, the Theotokas and ever Virgin Mary. Christmas celebrates this, not something else. Christian veneration of the Virgin Mary is insisted upon because of our insistence on the incarnation as basic to our faith.
May God guide you as you go on your path.
Thanks again for listening.