Chrismation/Confirmation and the Holy Spirit

[The Liturgist]

If you join the Catholic Church, instead of being born in it, you will receive all three Sacraments during the same ceremony, which normally is held during Easter Vigil mass.

Indeed, thats very similiar to Orthodoxy. It used to be liturgically almost identical until Pope Pius XII rewrote the Mass of the Presanctified and the Paschal Triduum, so that the Vigil Mass happened in the evening rather than the morning of Holy Saturday (when the Orthodox Vesperal Divine Liturgy is held, with 14 Old Testament lessons, which were historically read during the Baptism; the Roman Rite had 12, in both cases, the lessons were Christological prophecies from the Old Testament.

 

[RileyG]

Catholicism doesn’t have rites of passage, albeit some look at it that way, especially for cradle Catholics: Baptism as an infant, 1st Communion around the age of reasoning, 1st confession close to the same period, and confirmation during high school age.

Yes, but those are sacraments. Not necessarily "rites of passages," they convey divine graces rather than mean passing through a specific age.

 

[Andrewn]

Baptism as an infant, 1st Communion around the age of reasoning, 1st confession close to the same period, and confirmation during high school age.

I was under the impression that Communion is given after confirmation. But you're saying that it is given before confirmation, right?

If you join the Catholic Church, instead of being born in it, you will receive all three Sacraments during the same ceremony, which normally is held during Easter Vigil mass.

I was under the impression that Catholics accepted Protestant baptism. Are you saying that for adults joining the Catholic Church baptism, confirmation, and communion are given only once a year during Easter Vigil mass?

It would be curious to see how the Lutherans and Reformed actually see this (in our Theology) Sacrament.

Yes, it would be interesting to know if during confirmation, like Catholics, they include anointing, laying on of hands, and exorcism. Perhaps @The Liturgist can shed light on this.

 

[Andrewn]

Pentecostals/Charismatic Churches pretty much have two Sacraments: Water Baptism and Baptism of the Holy Spirit (which I would equate to Confirmation). Some of the pastors will use oil during the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but it is primarily performed with the laying on of hands, and praying over the person, until either they start to speak in Tongues or I guess when the pastor gets tired, and the individual hasn’t shown evidence of tongues.

Like other Protestants, Pentecostals have only two ordinances: water baptism and communion. What you describe about baptism of the Holy Spirit may be practiced in some Pentecostal denominations. I don't think it is done in all cases or that it is necessarily done at the time of water baptism. Perhaps @Pavel Mosko can shed light on this.

 

[Erose]

I was under the impression that Communion is given after confirmation. But you're saying that it is given before confirmation, right?

For cradle Catholics confirmation is normally the last rite given, and it is typically given when the child is a teenager. There is always exceptions though.

I was under the impression that Catholics accepted Protestant baptism. Are you saying that for adults joining the Catholic Church baptism, confirmation, and communion are given only once a year during Easter Vigil mass?

. Yes Catholics do not re-baptize, validly baptized Christians. Big stink about that back in the 4th century, and Rome stood always against re-baptism.

Yes, it would be interesting to know if during confirmation, like Catholics, they include anointing, laying on of hands, and exorcism. Perhaps @The Liturgist can shed light on this.

. My curiosity would fall on what do they view the purpose of confirmation is, if it does not confer the graces of a Sacrament such as Baptism and Communion.

 

[Erose]

Like other Protestants, Pentecostals have only two ordinances: water baptism and communion. What you describe about baptism of the Holy Spirit may be practiced in some Pentecostal denominations. I don't think it is done in all cases or that it is necessarily done at the time of water baptism. Perhaps @Pavel Mosko can shed light on this.

From my UPC days, usually the Baptism of the Holy Spirit proceeded baptism, as the gift of tongues were viewed as evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit and thus salvation. Communion was not viewed as necessary.

From my viewpoint and experience, I usually refer to Pentecostals as the Oneness (Modalist) Communities such as the UPC, and the Trinitarian Communities as Charismatic, such as Assembly of God Communites.

Both communities have very different theologies, and really IMO the main similarity is the use of Tongues.

Trinitarian Communities are pretty much Evangelical Pentecostals. Oneness Pentecostals are a completely different animal.

 

[Andrewn]

From my UPC days, usually the Baptism of the Holy Spirit proceeded baptism,

The baptism of the Holy Spirit preceeds water baptism! This is different from the AOG.

From my viewpoint and experience, I usually refer to Pentecostals as the Oneness (Modalist) Communities such as the UPC, and the Trinitarian Communities as Charismatic, such as Assembly of God Communites. . . . Trinitarian Communities are pretty much Evangelical Pentecostals. Oneness Pentecostals are a completely different animal.

I used to call the AOG, "Charismatic Baptists" . I guess this is similar to you calling them, "Charismatic Evangelicals."

Beside their Oneness theology, what other differences make the UPC, "a completely different animal?"

 

[Erose]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit proceeds water baptism! This is different from the AOG.


I used to call the AOG, "Charismatic Baptists" . I guess this is similar to you calling them, "Charismatic Evangelicals."

Beside their Oneness theology, what other differences make the UPC, "a completely different animal?"

The disciplines they must follow:
Men can't have beards and must have short hair. No wearing shorts in public, and many still require long sleeve shirts as well.
Women are not suppose to cut their hair. Must wear dresses or skirts, no pants.
No TV. Not sure what they did about the internet since I left by then; I'm assuming some of it is allowed.

Outside of their belief in modalism, their baptism uses the Jesus' Name formula, and not the Trinitarian one. They are not "Sola Fide" believers; and they are not "Once Saved Always Saved" believers either.

One is saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whose evidence given is speaking in Tongues. If you do not have the gift of tongues, that means you don't have the Holy Spirit.

You can loose salvation, which they refer to as "back-sliding"; and if you back-slide, ie. leave church; then you pretty much are ostracized from the community. Lost some, what I viewed originally, good friends when I converted to Catholicism.

Worship is fairly unorganized. Mostly singing and preaching. The belief is that the Spirit will take the congregation where He wants it to go. There have been services, especially during a revival, that I attended, were all we did was sing for three hours, but mostly start out with singing, then preaching, then altar call.

They are also big on the rapture.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It would be curious to see how the Lutherans and Reformed actually see this (in our Theology) Sacrament. From what I understand Lutherans and Reformed only recognize two Sacraments: Baptism and Communion.

While it is a little fuzzy, and it remains a topic of discussion within Lutheranism, Absolution is also recognized as a Sacrament. So for Lutherans, it's more like there are two or three Sacraments, depending on who you ask and how strict their interpretation of the definition of a Sacrament is (per St. Augustine, that what makes something a Sacrament is the union of God's word with a material element).

Lutheranism does not consider Confirmation to be a Sacrament, largely because one of the chief criteria for a Sacrament is that it was personally instituted by Jesus. We have that institution with Baptism, the Eucharist, and with Absolution; but not with Confirmation. That said, Confirmation was retained for its usefulness and benefit for the Faithful. That we might [re-]affirm God's baptismal promises.

In every baptism I've witnessed in the Lutheran church it includes anointing with oil and laying on of hands; but Chrismation is not considered a separate Sacrament so much as it is considered part of the Baptismal Rite itself; thus arguably Chrismation is to be considered part of the Sacrament of Holy Baptism; rather than something distinct or separate. Though this may also be something that probably varies from synod to synod or even congregation to congregation. So take my personal experience on this with at least some grain of salt.

What I can say confidently is that we (Lutherans I mean) recognize that the promise of the Holy Spirit is attached to Baptism in Acts of the Apostles 2:38; and so place the emphasis there rather than on Chrismation/Confirmation. So even if one is not Chrismated or Confirmed, Baptism still guarantees the gift and promise of the Spirit; as that is God's promise to us in Baptism.

-CryptoLutheran