Can we reconcile the Catholic Mary to the Biblical Mary ?

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Im looking for a Debate Partner who will take the affirmative position that the Catholic Mary coincides perfectly with the Biblically described Mary . My Debate Partner would go first taking the affirmative position ; I shall take the position that there is enormous discrepancy between the Catholic Mary and the Biblical Mary. Agreement on using official or highly practiced Catholic Teachings from the latest Catechism , Papal public Prayers, approved Catholic Church Apparitions and The Bible...are the only Sources permitted ; extraneous sources such as published encyclicals and early church Fathers are not allowed .

The standard debate rules shall apply except that each can use up to 5,000 words per submission.

If you agree to this Debate, please let me know as well as the Moderator so he can set up a Formal Debate Room...then please proceed with your first introductory Post.

Thanks, David.

 

[mickey30981]

I guess my first response it to wonder what you mean by Catholic Mary versus, Biblical Mary. What would be an example of how the two are not consistent. I see no inconsistency. If your are referring to doctrines based both on Tradition and Scripture, then your debate is not really meaningful from a Catholic perspective. In other words, the nature of your debate seems to really be from the perspective of an argument in the context of Sola Scriptura. In which case, the debate is not just about Mary but about the role of Tradition and Scripture in Catholic Mariology. I hope this makes sense. If so, can you please clarify?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I guess my first response it to wonder what you mean by Catholic Mary versus, Biblical Mary. What would be an example of how the two are not consistent. I see no inconsistency. If your are referring to doctrines based both on Tradition and Scripture, then your debate is not really meaningful from a Catholic perspective. In other words, the nature of your debate seems to really be from the perspective of an argument in the context of Sola Scriptura. In which case, the debate is not just about Mary but about the role of Tradition and Scripture in Catholic Mariology. I hope this makes sense. If so, can you please clarify?

The Bible alone is our ultimate source of trust according to the One who inspired it ..not made up traditions by men over time.

This proposed debate is the Catholic view of Mary which is practiced versus the Mary of the Bible to see if there are any differences. Catholic theologians like to assure us that all Catholic official teachings don't go against the Bible ...and I strongly take issue with that. At least 30 official DOctrines compete with the Bible and this debate will cover just 1 of them.

I will not give any examples of how they do, for, that will come out very clearly in the debate.

If you think the Catholic Mary is supported without nullifying the Bible and what it has to say about Mary..then please become my Debate Partner because im looking for someone like yourself.

 

[Athanasias]

Oh I will debate you David. I would love to debate you on this topic. I hope your also going to also be using authoritative documents on Mary by the Popes Such as "The Mother of the Redeemer" by Saint John Paul II :
Redemptoris Mater, John Paul II, March 25 1987

Vatican II's document on Mary and the Church in Lumen Gentium Chapter 8:

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium

and infallible documents of the Popes on Mary such as Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate conception :

Ineffabilis Deus



and Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
Munificentissimus Deus

And the infallible truth of her perpetual virginity at The Lateran Council, 649 AD
D256 in

Canon 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived....., and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned.

And the Council of Ephasus in 431 A.D. which defined her as Mother of God or God bearer.

But I will debate you definitly.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Oh I will debate you David. I would love to debate you on this topic. I hope your also going to also be using authoritative documents on Mary by the Popes Such as "The Mother of the Redeemer" by Saint John Paul II :
Redemptoris Mater, John Paul II, March 25 1987

Vatican II's document on Mary and the Church in Lumen Gentium Chapter 8:

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium

and infallible documents of the Popes on Mary such as Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate conception :

Ineffabilis Deus



and Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.
Munificentissimus Deus

And the infallible truth of her perpetual virginity at The Lateran Council, 649 AD
D256 in

Canon 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived....., and that she incorruptibly bore [Him?], her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned.

And the Council of Ephasus in 431 A.D. which defined her as Mother of God or God bearer.

But I will debate you definitly.

Actually no...I wont be using any of those impressive sounding Latin documents ; rather, I will be using what everyday Catholics use (at least the minority use) which is the Catechism . Then we shall examine them for heresy and to see how 'they don't nullify the Bible' as we are told by Catholics .

I would rather debate a common Catholic as they don't come to the table with as much legalism , flowery language that you need a Catholic Dictionary for , etc... I hope you understand , but thanks for offering to debate.

 

[Arcangl86]

The Catechism isn't a stand alone document. It is just a summary of the faith that needs to be put into context by the source documents. This doesn't seem like a fair debate. You are requiring the person arguing from a Catholic perspective to not use many of the sources of that perspective, and require them to argue the affirmative, without knowing what exactly they are supposed to be defending.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

The Catechism isn't a stand alone document. It is just a summary of the faith that needs to be put into context by the source documents. This doesn't seem like a fair debate. You are requiring the person arguing from a Catholic perspective to not use many of the sources of that perspective, and require them to argue the affirmative, without knowing what exactly they are supposed to be defending.

I thought I made it pretty clear what they would be defending. It is this :

That any and all the official Catholic teachings on Mary, coincide with what the Bible says...and does not go against the Bible in any way. The opening post from the Catholic might include showing how the Catholic understanding of Mary...her person and her current abilities that Catholics give her.... do not go against any biblical view of Mary . The opening post might also address the common misunderstandings that Bible Followers (Evangelicals) have toward Mary in Catholicism . How the person chooses to approach this is entirely up to them , but essentially, im wanting a Seasoned Catholic to show why the Catholic view of Mary is something to be embraced and why typical Protestants should be more open to the Catholic view of Mary. Im thinking of a couple of notable former Protestants such as Steve Hahn who once they embraced the Catholic notion of Mary, allowed them to experience 'the fullness of the Faith' in a greater way...........so., it would be good to explore how and why this happened based on what is true about Mary . These are just a few suggestions for the prospective Debater and the Person can choose for him/herself what they wish to focus on with regard to Mariology .

Are you someone who would be interested in such a friendly debate ?

 

[Arcangl86]

Thank you for clarifying. However as I am no longer part of the Roman Church, I'm not the right person to defend their beliefs.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Thank you for clarifying. However as I am no longer part of the Roman Church, I'm not the right person to defend their beliefs.

Interesting . Thanks.

 

[Athanasias]

The Catechism isn't a stand alone document. It is just a summary of the faith that needs to be put into context by the source documents. This doesn't seem like a fair debate. You are requiring the person arguing from a Catholic perspective to not use many of the sources of that perspective, and require them to argue the affirmative, without knowing what exactly they are supposed to be defending.

Bingo! Well said! The "infallible" teachings on her come from some of those documents I quoted. The Catechism is fine as a summery and quotes those same documents I quoted. So If he(Dave) wants to use the Catechism then he will have to also use those "Latin documents"(which are translated into English btw and free to look at online) that the CCC Quote to get a deeper context. That is unless he is really not interested in hearing what the Catholic Church officially teaches on these issues to truly understand the Churches point.

And and btw ***** Dave****** his name is Scott Hahn, Dr. Scott Hahn not Steve. And Yes Dr. Hahn is a a former protestant minister now Catholic bible scholar and he wrote a book on the bible and Mary called "Hail Holy Queen the mother of God in the word of God".

I highly recommend using that especially as I teach also using that. It will show anyone the biblical connections to all marian doctrines and devotion using old and new testament both. I have shown this to a methodist women who eventually became Catholic.

Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Que...sr=1-1&keywords=hail+holy+queen+by+scott+hahn

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Just a word to all...

When debating doctrines and dogmatics, one against the other; how fair is it that one side can limit or prohibit the other side from referencing their historic documents and confessional writings while the other can access what ever they wish? It seems to me that such would be like handcuffing your tennis opponent.

In the interest of fairness and a level playing field, know that I will not approve such a debate.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Bingo! Well said! The "infallible" teachings on her come from some of those documents I quoted. The Catechism is fine as a summery and quotes those same documents I quoted. So If he(Dave) wants to use the Catechism then he will have to also use those "Latin documents"(which are translated into English btw and free to look at online) that the CCC Quote to get a deeper context. That is unless he is really not interested in hearing what the Catholic Church officially teaches on these issues to truly understand the Churches point.

And and btw ***** Dave****** his name is Scott Hahn, Dr. Scott Hahn not Steve. And Yes Dr. Hahn is a a former protestant minister now Catholic bible scholar and he wrote a book on the bible and Mary called "Hail Holy Queen the mother of God in the word of God".

I highly recommend using that especially as I teach also using that. It will show anyone the biblical connections to all marian doctrines and devotion using old and new testament both. I have shown this to a methodist women who eventually became Catholic.

Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Que...sr=1-1&keywords=hail+holy+queen+by+scott+hahn

Im only interested in what a typical Catholic can defend and from the CCC since JP2 said it was to be read by all ... and which 'some' Catholics read albeit sparsely . Since the CCC is the Summary, that's what im going with and the Debate will be predicated on this criteria .

Thank you for your offer and information, and now, if you continue to badger Me and the Debate I wish to engage in, then youll be moving into the realm of flaming/goading/and purposely causing dissension ------- all of which is against Forum Rules . Please don't continue with the degrading remarks or ill have to ask a Moderator to step in and take charge.

 

[Hetta]

Just a word to all...

When debating doctrines and dogmatics, one against the other; how fair is it that one side can limit or prohibit the other side from referencing their historic documents and confessional writings while the other can access what ever they wish? It seems to me that such would be like handcuffing your tennis opponent.

In the interest of fairness and a level playing field, know that I will not approve such a debate.

Good to know.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Just a word to all...

When debating doctrines and dogmatics, one against the other; how fair is it that one side can limit or prohibit the other side from referencing their historic documents and confessional writings while the other can access what ever they wish? It seems to me that such would be like handcuffing your tennis opponent.

In the interest of fairness and a level playing field, know that I will not approve such a debate.

I think you have a misnomer here Mark ; BOTH sides would be limited to the same established agreed-upon Sources --- and so, that is quite fair and not one sided . The protocol of the debate im offering, is to stick with the summary of the teachings on the Catholic Mary using their summary book called the Catholic Catechism , and, using the summary book on the Biblical Mary from the Bible without launching into a plethora of extraneous other sources . Both the Catechism and the Bible are revered primary Sources and its simply these that im wanting both of Us to stick to.

If your still not going to approve such a fair debate then please let me know and remove this Debate Proposal .

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think you have a misnomer here Mark ; BOTH sides would be limited to the same established agreed-upon Sources --- and so, that is quite fair and not one sided . The protocol of the debate im offering, is to stick with the summary of the teachings on the Catholic Mary using their summary book called the Catholic Catechism , and, using the summary book on the Biblical Mary from the Bible without launching into a plethora of extraneous other sources . Both the Catechism and the Bible are revered primary Sources and its simply these that im wanting both of Us to stick to.

If your still not going to approve such a fair debate then please let me know and remove this Debate Proposal .

Providing both sides would agree, I would allow this.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Providing both sides would agree, I would allow this.

THanks.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Bumping this thread to see if there are any takers.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Bumping this to see if we have any more interest...

Mark