Can anyone explain how the moth got it's owl eyes?

[Thurston-howell-III]

Can anyone explain what it took for a moth to gain owl eyes on ea wing? Owl are formidable predators recognized by would-be moth enemies.
Just wondering.

 

[trophy33]

The resemblance to owl eyes provides a survival advantage that gets reinforced over generations.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

1 small mutation at a time over generations. Also, your second sentence is a clue to what drives it.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

All I see on this is bait on wanting to start an argument between people who accept of evolution and those don't accept evolution.

So I'll just hedge my bets and say God did it... through evolution.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

The resemblance to owl eyes provides a survival advantage that gets reinforced over generations.

I see. But it must have taken a slew of mutations to get the artwork just right and have not one but two, to be true to life

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I see. But it must have taken a slew of mutations to get the artwork just right and have not one but two, to be true to life

It would take as many as was needed to get to that stage.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

All I see on this is bait on wanting to start an argument between people who accept of evolution and those don't accept evolution.

So I'll just hedge my bets and say God did it... through evolution.

This is a forum, what are you doing here?

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

It would take as many as was needed to get to that stage.

As many as needed? Looks as though the moth definitely needed those eye designs for protection huh? Let’s have some lucky mutations and get the job done, that’s how evolution works right?

 

[trophy33]

I see. But it must have taken a slew of mutations to get the artwork just right and have not one but two, to be true to life

Nature has a lot of time to get it "just right". Before that, it could be less perfect, but still advantageous.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

This is a forum, what are you doing here?

Being on this forum. Now, there is a difference between having a debate, as can and has been done on this forum many times, and attempting to start unnecessary drama between two groups. And the latter is the vibe I got from your OP, especially in using the wink emoji.

As many as needed? Looks as though the moth definitely needed those eye designs for protection huh? Let’s have some lucky mutations and get the job done, that’s how evolution works right?

That's quite a nonsensical statement and shows that you don't get how evolution works. We don't know the exact number of mutations for anything because that's not something that science is able to answer. But to say 'as many as needed' is accurate. Trial and error is the name of the game when it comes to evolution, and it would take many, many, many tries, especially for creatures as short lived as moths.

 

[Hans Blaster]

As many as needed? Looks as though the moth definitely needed those eye designs for protection huh? Let’s have some lucky mutations and get the job done, that’s how evolution works right?

It didn't *need* that particular protection, but once some pattern on its wings had a slightly confusing aspect to owls, any future random change that made that effect more prominent was advantageous in avoiding being eaten by owls. (There are certainly *other* predators of moths that this decoration pattern doesn't protect against.)

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

Being on this forum. Now, there is a difference between having a debate, as can and has been done on this forum many times, and attempting to start unnecessary drama between two groups. And the latter is the vibe I got from your OP, especially in using the wink emoji.



That's quite a nonsensical statement and shows that you don't get how evolution works. We don't know the exact number of mutations for anything because that's not something that science is able to answer. But to say 'as many as needed' is accurate. Trial and error is the name of the game when it comes to evolution, and it would take many, many, many tries, especially for creatures as short lived as moths.

I wonder how many "ABSOLUTELY LUCKY" mutations it took to get the job done.
How come you don't empty your bank account to play the lottery since you believe in luck so much?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I wonder how many "ABSOLUTELY LUCKY" mutations it took to get the job done.
How come you don't empty your bank account to play the lottery since you believe in luck so much?

See, it's because of comments like this that make me feel that you're not here to converse in good faith.

 

[Aaron112]

Can anyone explain what it took for a moth to gain owl eyes on ea wing? Owl are formidable predators recognized by would-be moth enemies.
Just wondering. View attachment 345574

Yes.
It is in the title of this section.

• 
  Creation &

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

See, it's because of comments like this that make me feel that you're not here to converse in good faith.

The faith is that we can post tough quests.

See, it's because of comments like this that make me feel that you're not here to converse in good faith.

The faith is that we can post tough quests. I am supposed to believe in the incredible luck of mutations that created a masterpiece of owl's eyes on the wings. I think you've alot of explaining to do.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

The faith is that we can post tough quests. I am supposed to believe in the incredible luck of mutations that created a masterpiece of owl's eyes on the wings. I think you've alot of explaining to do.

It's not a tough question in the slightest. The owl moth got its distinctive pattern through evolution via the natural selection of the genetics for that mutation to be present in the population. Now, many others such as myself will say this was done by God, an act of hand's off creation was it were. Others will dispute that and say it's just solely an act of creation.

If you want to be so blasé and simple about it, but all it takes is that one single mutation to get a start in the gene pool, and that's kind of it. It might be a number's game, and no-one but God really knows the numbers, but in the end, it's always a 1:1.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

It's not a tough question in the slightest. The owl moth got its distinctive pattern through evolution via the natural selection of the genetics for that mutation to be present in the population. Now, many others such as myself will say this was done by God, an act of hand's off creation was it were. Others will dispute that and say it's just solely an act of creation.

If you want to be so blasé and simple about it, but all it takes is that one single mutation to get a start in the gene pool, and that's kind of it. It might be a number's game, and no-one but God really knows the numbers, but in the end, it's always a 1:1.

Well I'm not sure where you're coming from, I'm sensing mixed messages.
A true Darwinist believes in chance mutations. (aka LUCK)
"It takes is that one single mutation to get a start" ????
Actually you're going to need a lot of luck to get the correct mutations to enable a new feature, and let alone something as complex as eyes.
Natural selection has ZERO in the way of creativity. It creates nothing. Mutations are the engine. Lucky engine

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Well I'm not sure where you're coming from, I'm sensing mixed messages.
A true Darwinist believes in chance mutations. (aka LUCK)
"It takes is that one single mutation to get a start" ????
Actually you're going to need a lot of luck to get the correct mutations to enable a new feature, and let alone something as complex as eyes.
Natural selection has ZERO in the way of creativity. It creates nothing. Mutations are the engine. Lucky engine

I fail to see how I'm giving you mixed message on this whole thing. If you want to learn more about evolution, make the time and effort to read the sources available for free online.

 

[expos4ever]

Well I'm not sure where you're coming from, I'm sensing mixed messages.
A true Darwinist believes in chance mutations. (aka LUCK)
"It takes is that one single mutation to get a start" ????
Actually you're going to need a lot of luck to get the correct mutations to enable a new feature, and let alone something as complex as eyes.
Natural selection has ZERO in the way of creativity. It creates nothing. Mutations are the engine. Lucky engine

It seems to me that you are not properly accounting for the role of natural selection. Yes, mutations are a matter of luck, I suppose. But luck is not all that is involved - natural selection is also at play, and is simply not a random process.

 

[Thurston-howell-III]

It seems to me that you are not properly accounting for the role of natural selection. Yes, mutations are a matter of luck, I suppose. But luck is not all that is involved - natural selection is also at play, and is simply not a random process.

NS is at the mercy of mutations, which you just admitted are lucky.
Evolution is based on chance luck, do you run your life on luck?
speaking of luck, what are the chances that nucleotides in dna are arranged in such a way, that they form a code?