Brain damage patient where is his/her spirit?

tturt

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Some consider death iwhen they meet the medical definition, the natural one. But we're also spirit. (spirit, soul, and body, I Thess 5:23).

"For as the body without the spirit is dead..." (Jam 2:26). For believers, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (II Cor 5:8). Seems death is when both the spirit and soul leave the body permanently - God decides.
 
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vespasia

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The child concerned had an absolutely catastrophic hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy injury in early April. The section of his brainstem that was injured experienced the equivilent of the 'hangmans fracture'. Blood flow to the brain ceased. Whilst there is a very fine line between aggresive PICU preserving life and prolonging dying it is sad to note that this kind of injury just is not one that is recoverable from. There is no medicine or procedure that can reverse what has happened. The MRI scans shows both coning, this means the brain has been forced through a small opening at the base of the skull where it meets the spinal cord, that has lead to ongoing brain tissue and spinal cord necrosis , that means the tissue is dead. Whilst Christ promised to never forsake us he never promised that everyone will be healed in this world.

As for the whereabouts of his spirit- surely that will always be safe in Gods far more capable hands.
 
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The Liturgist

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The child concerned had an absolutely catastrophic hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy injury in early April. The section of his brainstem that was injured experienced the equivilent of the 'hangmans fracture'. Blood flow to the brain ceased. Whilst there is a very fine line between aggresive PICU preserving life and prolonging dying it is sad to note that this kind of injury just is not one that is recoverable from. There is no medicine or procedure that can reverse what has happened. The MRI scans shows both coning, this means the brain has been forced through a small opening at the base of the skull where it meets the spinal cord, that has lead to ongoing brain tissue and spinal cord necrosis , that means the tissue is dead. Whilst Christ promised to never forsake us he never promised that everyone will be healed in this world.

As for the whereabouts of his spirit- surely that will always be safe in Gods far more capable hands.

What you say strikes me as logical, bearing in mind that medically speaking, I am laity (and I assume you are not). That said, I do have substantial concerns about the rights of the family and the view of the NHS trust. The family say they want him moved to a hospice, which the NHS trust is opposing, on the basis that he is “too unstable to move without risk of death,” which makes no sense based on the diagnosis you provided (because if the child is dead, which is surely the case if the injury is as you describe, then the risks associated with transport to a palliative care facility are negligible). Thus if it eases trauma for the parents for him to be moved to a palliative care facility, I can’t imagine why the NHS trust could reasonably oppose it on those grounds.

By the way, out of curiosity, in cases like these, how are patients kept alive for purposes of organ donation, et cetera? Is it on the basis of reflexive action from the brainstem?

I do have a concern about brain death being misdiagnosed or patient/parental care wishes in this type of end of life scenario being mishandled due to an understandable if not excusable desire to harvest healthy organs for transplant. Although I am not sure if that is applicable in this case either (are 12 year olds old enough to provide organs viable for transplant?)
 
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RDKirk

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In 2001 my mother suffered severe brain injury in an auto accident on the way home from a church meeting. Essentially, her frontal lobes were destroyed. Because of Oklahoma law, the doctors were required to keep her on life support until I (as the next of kin) gave them permission to turn it off.

This was a major family issue, and she had three sisters who weighed in. Ultimately, I allowed her to remain on life support for another two weeks while we all prayed for a miracle. When they removed life support, she did not die, but continued to live, albeit as a vegetable.

What I surmise happened is that during those two weeks, her non-intellectual functions repaired themselves sufficiently to keep the body alive, but her frontal lobes were essentially just a mass of scar tissue. But her body lived, so we could do nothing--within our own morals or within Oklahoma law--to end that life.

We could not find a satisfactory nursing home. When I had her removed from the last nursing home, I recall the manager saying to me hotly, "You can't keep her alive for a week!"

One of her sisters moved into her house to care for her. My aunt gave her great care--she never even suffered so much as a bed sore. After eight years in that totally unresponsive, vegetative state, her body finally gave out and faded away.

One of my aunts always believed she was conscious and alert during that time. I hated to think that could be the case. My mother had been an incredibly vibrant, active person. She could strike up a conversation with anyone, any time...a total stranger in a restaurant.

In 1975, my mother visited us in Honolulu. One morning, I took her to the Ala Moana shopping center (at the time, the world's largest shopping center) where she spied actor Khigh Dhiegh, who played McGarrett's archenemy Wo Fat in the original series. I'm a serious introvert, but my mother was irrepressible, so she went over and began chatting with him.

And chatting.

And chatting.

And chatting.

Mr Dhiegh remained pleasant while I was looking at my watch. Then, he suddenly invited us to dinner at a nearby restaurant. Totally flabbergasted me. He and my mother chatted through lunch before he finally bid us goodbye.

That's the kind of person my mother had been. The thought that she could have been imprisoned for eight years conscious in that immobile body might have comforted that aunt, but it seemed like a horror to me.

The aunt who cared for her and I of course talked often and directly. We believe it would have been better to have removed the life support earlier, when the doctors first told us that her frontal lobes had been destroyed and there was no medical resort remaining. Instead, we left her on the life support long enough for the base motor functions to rebuild...and that was too long.

We kept her husk alive for as long as it would live...we were certainly not going to take deliberate actions to kill her. But we did agree between the two of us that her care would be as we'd care for a baby, and we'd see that she got regular medical attention, such as times she got different kinds of infections and even caught colds. But we would not go to any extraordinary measures, such as putting her back on life support.

We came to this kind of agreement about such situations, and it's my guide for if such a thing should happen again...and my instructions for if such a thing should happen to me: We would pray for God to work a miracle of healing. We would allow the doctors to do what they can. But when the doctors say, "We've done everything" and their everything did not work, then we'll remove all their devices and let God do what he will.

But to get to the point of the thread, I always wondered where her spirit was during those eight years.

Paul wrote, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Paul did not contemplate that the body could be kept alive when the mind had been destroyed. Paul presumed he would either be alive and actively in pursuit of the Lord's mission, or he would be with the Lord.

I can't believe that the Lord allowed my mother's spirit to remain trapped in that body for eight years, neither active in His mission nor with Him. I prefer to believe that her spirit went to the Lord when her body was no longer able to support her mind.
 
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The Liturgist

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In 2001 my mother suffered severe brain injury in an auto accident on the way home from a church meeting. Essentially, her frontal lobes were destroyed. Because of Oklahoma law, the doctors were required to keep her on life support until I (as the next of kin) gave them permission to turn it off.

This was a major family issue, and she had three sisters who weighed in. Ultimately, I allowed her to remain on life support for another two weeks while we all prayed for a miracle. When they removed life support, she did not die, but continued to live, albeit as a vegetable.

What I surmise happened is that during those two weeks, her non-intellectual functions repaired themselves sufficiently to keep the body alive, but her frontal lobes were essentially just a mass of scar tissue. But her body lived, so we could do nothing--within our own morals or within Oklahoma law--to end that life.

We could not find a satisfactory nursing home. When I had her removed from the last nursing home, I recall the manager saying to me hotly, "You can't keep her alive for a week!"

One of her sisters moved into her house to care for her. My aunt gave her great care--she never even suffered so much as a bed sore. After eight years in that totally unresponsive, vegetative state, her body finally gave out and faded away.

One of my aunts always believed she was conscious and alert during that time. I hated to think that could be the case. My mother had been an incredibly vibrant, active person. She could strike up a conversation with anyone, any time...a total stranger in a restaurant.

In 1975, my mother visited us in Honolulu. One morning, I took her to the Ala Moana shopping center (at the time, the world's largest shopping center) where she spied actor Khigh Dhiegh, who played McGarrett's archenemy Wo Fat in the original series. I'm a serious introvert, but my mother was irrepressible, so she went over and began chatting with him.

And chatting.

And chatting.

And chatting.

Mr Dhiegh remained pleasant while I was looking at my watch. Then, he suddenly invited us to dinner at a nearby restaurant. Totally flabbergasted me. He and my mother chatted through lunch before he finally bid us goodbye.

That's the kind of person my mother had been. The thought that she could have been imprisoned for eight years conscious in that immobile body might have comforted that aunt, but it seemed like a horror to me.

The aunt who cared for her and I of course talked often and directly. We believe it would have been better to have removed the life support earlier, when the doctors first told us that her frontal lobes had been destroyed and there was no medical resort remaining. Instead, we left her on the life support long enough for the base motor functions to rebuild...and that was too long.

We kept her husk alive for as long as it would live...we were certainly not going to take deliberate actions to kill her. But we did agree between the two of us that her care would be as we'd care for a baby, and we'd see that she got regular medical attention, such as times she got different kinds of infections and even caught colds. But we would not go to any extraordinary measures, such as putting her back on life support.

We came to this kind of agreement about such situations, and it's my guide for if such a thing should happen again...and my instructions for if such a thing should happen to me: We would pray for God to work a miracle of healing. We would allow the doctors to do what they can. But when the doctors say, "We've done everything" and their everything did not work, then we'll remove all their devices and let God do what he will.

But to get to the point of the thread, I always wondered where her spirit was during those eight years.

Paul wrote, “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

Paul did not contemplate that the body could be kept alive when the mind had been destroyed. Paul presumed he would either be alive and actively in pursuit of the Lord's mission, or he would be with the Lord.

I can't believe that the Lord allowed my mother's spirit to remain trapped in that body for eight years, neither active in His mission nor with Him. I prefer to believe that her spirit went to the Lord when her body was no longer able to support her mind.

I am sure God was with your mother and that she did not suffer.

By the way, the story of meeting Khigh Deigh is an amazing story you should treasure. He was a great actor and a genuinely good guy. I think the same could be said for most of the cast on the original Hawaii Five-O. Jack Lord was introverted and a perfectionist, but he was also known to be kind to the local children, and was an accomplished sailor who during his service in the US Navy produced training films on marlinespike seamanship (the working of ropes and lanyards). James MacArthur, who in his youth had worked for Walt Disney, had strong moral character and objected to foul language and nudity on television. Likewise I have generally heard good things about the other people involved in the show.
 
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Yosoyguapo

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Some consider death iwhen they meet the medical definition, the natural one. But we're also spirit. (spirit, soul, and body, I Thess 5:23).

"For as the body without the spirit is dead..." (Jam 2:26). For believers, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (II Cor 5:8). Seems death is when both the spirit and soul leave the body permanently - God decides.

Thessalonians 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself purify you to completion. And may your entire being45 – the breath, and the soul, and the body46

45 The entirety of one’s person, what a man consists of, is first described in the creation account. ”And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7). Thus, the body made of dust became a “living soul” when infused with the breath of God, the same three components mentioned by Paul. These three components are not mutually exclusive as many infer, but are those mentioned by Moses in his description of the creation of man. The same process described in Genesis 2:7 will be repeated for each one in the resurrection.
46 Paul was alluding to the most vivid description of the resurrection in the Bible – Ezekiel 37:1-14 – where God promised to reassemble the bones of His people, reconstruct the muscle and flesh on the skeleton, and then breathe the breath of life back into them, then give them the permanent Land inheritance.

James 2:26 The word translated ''Spirit'' is literally ''Breath''. Pneuma in Greek= Breath, Wind or Spirit. The literal meaning is Breath or Wind, the figurative sense is spirit. It is neuter, so when it is applied to God, it is because, it is ''The literal Breath of God''. It is not a separate entity. Is your ''breath'' another person? People do not posses an independent entity living inside them, that can live separate to the body. That is Greek Mythology which has invaded the church.
The gift of God is eternal life. [Rom. 6:23]
Only the Father is immortal [1 Tim. 6:16]
We do not go to heaven. John 3:13 Only Jesus has ascended to heaven.
John 8:21 Jesus where I am going you cannot come
John 7:34 You will search for Me and will not find Me, and where I am you are powerless to come.
The [Righteous dead, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, Rev. 20:4 ] are raised at the [First] resurrection. John 6:40 and I will raise him up in the last day.”
See also Daniel 12:2, Dan. 12:13, Isaiah 26:20.
Acts 2:24...
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death
Death is not a glorious state for the dead, even for Jesus.

Death is our enemy, not our friend.
Read 1 Corinthians 15:12 to the end of the chapter
Victory from death only comes at the resurrection.

Job 3:11-13
11“Why did I not perish at birth,

and die as I came from the womb?

12Why were there knees to receive me

and breasts that I might be nursed?

13For now I would be lying down in peace;

I would be asleep and at rest

Job 14:12, Psalm 6:5 etc...

God comes to live with man. Man does NOT go live with God.
Rev 21:3
, Ezekiel 37:27, 43:7, Psalm 5:11 LXX
 
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RDKirk

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Thessalonians 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself purify you to completion. And may your entire being45 – the breath, and the soul, and the body46

45 The entirety of one’s person, what a man consists of, is first described in the creation account. ”And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (Gen. 2:7). Thus, the body made of dust became a “living soul” when infused with the breath of God, the same three components mentioned by Paul. These three components are not mutually exclusive as many infer, but are those mentioned by Moses in his description of the creation of man. The same process described in Genesis 2:7 will be repeated for each one in the resurrection.
46 Paul was alluding to the most vivid description of the resurrection in the Bible – Ezekiel 37:1-14 – where God promised to reassemble the bones of His people, reconstruct the muscle and flesh on the skeleton, and then breathe the breath of life back into them, then give them the permanent Land inheritance.

James 2:26 The word translated ''Spirit'' is literally ''Breath''. Pneuma in Greek= Breath, Wind or Spirit. The literal meaning is Breath or Wind, the figurative sense is spirit. It is neuter, so when it is applied to God, it is because, it is ''The literal Breath of God''. It is not a separate entity. Is your ''breath'' another person? People do not posses an independent entity living inside them, that can live separate to the body. That is Greek Mythology which has invaded the church.
The gift of God is eternal life. [Rom. 6:23]
Only the Father is immortal [1 Tim. 6:16]
We do not go to heaven. John 3:13 Only Jesus has ascended to heaven.
John 8:21 Jesus where I am going you cannot come
John 7:34 You will search for Me and will not find Me, and where I am you are powerless to come.
The [Righteous dead, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, Rev. 20:4 ] are raised at the [First] resurrection. John 6:40 and I will raise him up in the last day.”
See also Daniel 12:2, Dan. 12:13, Isaiah 26:20.
Acts 2:24...
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death
Death is not a glorious state for the dead, even for Jesus.

Death is our enemy, not our friend.
Read 1 Corinthians 15:12 to the end of the chapter
Victory from death only comes at the resurrection.

Job 3:11-13
11“Why did I not perish at birth,

and die as I came from the womb?

12Why were there knees to receive me

and breasts that I might be nursed?

13For now I would be lying down in peace;

I would be asleep and at rest

Job 14:12, Psalm 6:5 etc...

God comes to live with man. Man does NOT go live with God.
Rev 21:3
, Ezekiel 37:27, 43:7, Psalm 5:11 LXX

You didn't answer the question, though.
 
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You didn't answer the question, though.

Well to a certain extent the question is ambiguous, because its not clear to what extent the brain has been injured.
 
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