- May 2, 2017
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I'm trying to wrap my mind about the filioque and whether or not it should be accepted (I'm interested in Orthodoxy for other reasons, but I think this would be enough to push me over the edge, so to speak). I know the basics of the argument for and against, and I'm aware of the claim of semi-sabellianism against the filioque. I posted in a Lutheran facebook group to get some opinions that weren't from RCC sites.
Here's the discussion. It's rather long, so bear with me. I summarized where I could. I know this has been debated numerous times anyway, but I wanted to get responses on these specific arguments and this seemed the best way to do that. Mods, feel free to relocate this if necessary.
That was one conversation. Here's the next, more in-depth one.
To summarize:
1. What if we agree that the procession from the Son is not an origin (i.e. in eternity) of the Spirit, but simply him sending forth the Spirit in time? Is that orthodox?
2. What if we insist that it's not semi-sabellianism? Maybe Sabellianism could be inferred from the filioque; does that mean that the filioque necessitates sabellianism? Can't we accept a divine mystery that the Spirit proceeds from both but yet this is not modalism?
3. [Perhaps this is better for a RCC site] Why do we reject the dual procession? I.e., Roman dogma insists on the procession from both "as from a single source" - why can't the Spirit eternally proceed from both as two sources?
4. What makes us say that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father? The "ekporeuometai" (spelling?) in John 15:26 is not a perfect tense verb, so where do we get the idea of eternal? Is it simply the logical conclusion from (A) the spirit proceeds from the father and (B) the spirit is eternal so (C) the spirit eternally proceeds from the father? If so can't we replace the Major premise with (A) the spirit is sent by the father? and arrive at (C) the spirit is eternally sent from the father?
5. Isn't the EO view subordinationism for the Son [and the Spirit]?
Sorry, lots of rambling. This is a really long post, I know.
Here's the discussion. It's rather long, so bear with me. I summarized where I could. I know this has been debated numerous times anyway, but I wanted to get responses on these specific arguments and this seemed the best way to do that. Mods, feel free to relocate this if necessary.
Lutheran Monk said:How should we respond to the EO claim that the filioque is semi-sabellianism/modalism? I.e., if the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as a single source (which is official RCC dogma; not sure what our "official" position is), then that makes them, well, one source. Whereas we confess that the Father is not the Son, although they are of the same essence.
George said:Without knowing a lot of the discussion going into the EO argument, my first response would be, "have you read the rest of the creed?" The Athanasian Creed lays it out pretty well. I supposed I'd go ahead and point out that the Father did indeed send the Son, and the Son sent the Holy Spirit. To quarrel further on the meaning of the word "proceed" in a sentence being treated apart from the rest of the creeds betrays an a priori assumption the Creeds are in error.
Lutheran Monk said:Except the original Nicene-Constantinople Creed didn't contain the filioque, so isn't the burden of proof on us? Aren't we of the West the ones that have the a priori assumption that the Creed needed to be fixed with the filioque?
Trying to understand this both historically, linguistically, and theologically. Historically, it seems as though the West is certainly in error, even if it is a theological truth. They modified the Creed without an ecumenical council, which was forbidden by the previous ecumenical councils. And I know, we can argue that we're Lutheran so the councils aren't binding on matters of doctrine or practice... but that's a dangerous precedent, in my opinion.
George said:I don't know the historical argument for adding the filioque to the Nicene creed. I can look at the statement and find no error in it, though, certainly not an error of modalism particularly since I also have the Athanasian Creed and clear Scripture against modalism and a firm confession of the Holy Trinity in every creed. It's one thing to make an historical argument of "you had no right to add to or take away from the creed", it's another to claim, "that's modalism, Patrick"
That was one conversation. Here's the next, more in-depth one.
Tim said:I think it's odd to say that "two separate persons sending a third" is modalism.
Lutheran Monk said:That's what I thought at first, too, but then I asked an EO friend to explain it to me. He said that it is not "sending" that is the issue. Clearly, the Son *sends* the Spirit. Rather, it is "where does the Spirit originate?" (Which is not to imply that the Spirit is non-eternal.)
The 15th c. Council of Florence (and RCC catechism) say, "He has his nature and subsistence at once (simul) from the Father and the Son. He proceeds eternally from both as from one principle and through one spiration"
The EO argument, if I'm not mistaken, is that it makes the Father and the Son *one principle* (hence: semi-modalism). Whereas they are two existences/persons of God, not one.
Tim said:Yeah....I'm going to go ahead and say they [the EO] are misreading the word "proceeds". Granted, I do not know my Latin very well, but I do not remember having ever been taught anywhere that "proceeds" means anything more than "sent by."
It sounds more like they are making a strawman by using the ambiguity of the meaning of a word without looking at how that word is limited by its context to show that the West is wrong. Again, nowhere have I ever heard anyone in a confessional, creedal tradition of Western Christianity that make the argument that the filioque makes the Father and Son one person. You can't really argue against someone's argument by redefining the words in their argument to mean something other than that they were actually saying. Doing so doesn't prove you're right and they are wrong. It just means you're good at wordsmithing.
Lutheran Monk said:So you're saying that if we understand "proceeds" as "sent by" then the filioque is fine? In Greek the term used is "ἐκπορευόμενον" which means "to issue forth as from an origin" if my sources are correct. So if we understand "proceed" as a translation of this (i.e., Rome) then would you say that is incorrect? Whereas if we understand just as a natural, normal use of the word "proceed" (e.g., sent by) then it's fine?
Tim said:However, this morning I 'issued forth as from an origin' from my wife and my kids at home, but this does not mean that my wife and kids are one person.
What actually confuses me concerning this whole line of thinking, is that if EO argues that "and the Son" means that we are saying that the Father and Son are one and the same origin, then what does that mean for the Spirit that proceeds from them. To me it sounds like making the argument that the filioque implies that the Father and the Son are the same source, then would that necessitate that they believe that the Holy Spirit literally "comes out" of this one origin? To argue that the filioque implies that the Father and Son are one and the "origin" in matter of substance would mean that when they say the Spirit has origin in the Father only, (especially if they don't take issue with the "sent" part of it), then they are saying that the Spirit's "beginning" is in the Father only...meaning that the Spirit has a beginning and therefore is not its own eternal, separate person.
Does any of what I just said make sense? I don't really know how to clearly communicate what I am thinking.
In other words, to argue that "and the Son" means that the Father and the Son are one and the same origin (as in the same person), wouldn't that necessitate that this argument implies that the Spirit is created in the Father, or is one and the same as the Father? I don't see how this argument would make any sense against the filioque unless this is the relationship between the Father and the Spirit as well.
Otherwise, you see two separate and distinct persons "sending" a third separate and distinct person, and, as you said, EO doesn't have a problem saying that.
Lutheran Monk said:I don't think you originated from your wife and kids, as I understand the meaning. An analogy I've heard is if the President writes a letter to someone, he will use his secretary to stamp it, address it, mail it, etc. But the letter doesn't originate with the secretary, since the secretary didn't write it.
I do think that is part of their criticism -- the filioque relegates the Spirit to a lesser position by elevating both the Father and the Son. I see where you're coming from, but I think it's introducing the concept of time to the relations of the Trinity. We would say that the Son has his origin in the Father -- the Word is "begotten of his Father" but we clarify that it is "before all worlds" or outside of time. I think they'd reason the same with the procession of the Spirit. The Spirit proceeds from the Father *in eternity* but is sent by the Son *in time*.
Here is one thing I found on an OO website that I believe clarifies their position.
"So what is wrong with accepting Filoque;
1. It is contrary to Scripture – John 15:26: “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” Thus, Christ never describes the Holy Spirit as proceeding from himself, but only mentions the Spirit’s procession in terms of the Father
2. The idea of “filoque”, makes the Holy Spirit lower than the “Father” and the “Son”. This is extremely wrong because all the members of the Triune God, are equal. No member is greater or less than the other. The Father is God, The Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. If the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son, it makes it a lesser member, which in turn makes it not equal to God.
3. In saying that the “Son” can be shared by two persons, that it proceeds from both the “Father and the “Son” is to elevate those two Persons at the expense of the other. Thus, the balance of unity and diversity is destroyed in the trinity. This again is heretical and goes against what scripture teaches.
4. Apostolic Tradition has always taught that God the Father is the single Source (“monarchy”) of the Son and the Spirit. Moreover it has always been biblical that the Trinity exsited before all ages and was never begotten. There is no chronological order of existence among the Three Persons, i.e. no one of the Persons existed before the other, because They are eternal. Therefore the Names of the Three Persons can be mentioned in any order, because the Holy Trinity is above any order. For example, the order in the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19, i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is different than that in the Apostolic blessing in 2Corinthians 13:14, i.e. the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.
5. St Cyril of Alexandria rightly points out that The Holy Spirit is not estranged from the Son since They have the same essence). Each of the Three Persons is in the other Two.
It is clearly evident that this idea of “Filoque” has many flaws, too many to mention here, this was just a simple overview of the issue."
https://bishoysblog.com/2010/05/25/filoque/
Tim said:But when the Father sent His Son, it was in time. And when the Father and the Son Sent the Spirit, it was in time.
That analogy is also presents what I am getting at: letter is a creation of the President. Therefore, what does this argument say about the relationship between the Father and the Spirit? To have this definition of "origin" and "originate" would mean that the Spirit is a created being and not part of the eternal Trinity.
I could be wrong, but that seems like a hardcore mixing of the "Imminent Trinity" and the "Economic Trinity." How God subsists in Himself in eternity is not equal to how God reveals Himself in time to work for our salvation, which is what the Creed is speaking of. If I am wrapping my head around this right, they are making an Imminent argument against the Economic, which is what causes the confusion.
"Each of the Three Persons is in the other Two" sounds much closer to modalism or some other kind of heresy than saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
I also don't understand how they can make the argument that you cannot exalt the Son so that both the Father and Son are above the Spirit, yet they make the argument that the Father is above both the Son and the Spirit...unless you are confusing the Immanent and Economic aspects of the Trinity. This also plays right in to what I said originally. With what you just posted, the Filioque was, or at least can be used, to combat Subordinationism, which would go up against their whole "monarchy" deal...unless you are keeping the Immanent and Economic separate and distinct: how the eternal Trinity operates within Himself vs. how the Trinity has revealed Himself to work in time for our salvation. If you blend the two, then I would imagine that you would come up with an argument that sounds very similar to the arguments that you shared from that site.
Also going WAY back in this line, you also captured my point on the ambiguity of the word "origin." However, unlike this argument against the filioque, you were not saying that I was wrong in what I said, because you understood what I meant when it was limited to the context. Instead you said, "That's not the definition that they are using." Right. They are using a different definition of the word to change the meaning of the filioque, but by doing so they are betraying their own thinking that...I'm not even sure. I don't think they would actually argue that the Spirit is a created being, but that's the only way that I can see their argument against the filioque.
In addition to that, their statement, "Each of the Three Persons is in the other Two," it seems like they would NOT have a problem saying that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, if the Father and the Son are in each other.
Point 3: "Thus, the balance of unity and diversity is destroyed in the trinity." There. In one sentence this shows that the person making this argument cannot let the paradox of the Imminent and Economic Trinity stand. They feel the need to reconcile the two, and therefore the filioque must be dealt with.
This argument also just asserts that the "filioque" automatically implies things without giving any evidence or support, and then immediately turns around to rebuke it. Some of the things that they claim the "filioque" teaches, again, I have never heard come out of the mouth of a confessional, creedal Western Christian. In order to argue against someone, you have to argue against what they say, not redefine their argument and import new meaning into it to show that new meaning is wrong. If you do so, you have actually not engaged their argument at all. I think it all boils down to, not the filioque itself, but what they mean by "proceeds."
Looking at that once more, the Greek word, ἐκπορευόμενον in BDAG says,
"ἐκπορεύομαι (s. πορεύομαι) impf. ἐξεπορευόμην; fut. ἐκπορεύσομαι; pf. ἐκπεπόρευμαι LXX (mid. since X.; ins, pap, LXX, En; GrBar 6:1; Just., D. 31, 2 ποταμὸς εἷλκεν ἐκπορευόμενος [Da 7:10 LXX and Theod.])
① to be in motion from one area to another, go
ⓐ abs. (UPZ 5, 11; 78, 44; BGU 1078, 4 [39 A.D.] al.) go away Ac 3:11 D. ὄχλοι ἐκπορευόμενοι crowds or people that came out Lk 3:7; go out Ac 25:4. εἰσπορεύεσθαι καὶ ἐ. go in and out 9:28 (cp. Dt 31:2; Tob 5:18; 1 Macc 3:45). Esp. of hostile spirits come out Mt 17:21; Ac 19:12.
ⓑ w. indication of the place fr. which: ἔκ τινος (Polyb. 6, 58, 4; Mi 1:3; Ezk 47:12 al.) out of the sanctuary Mk 13:1. ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου B 2:7 (cp. Dt 25:17). Of a bride come out of the bridal chamber Hv 4, 2, 1. ἔξω τῆς πόλεως outside the city Mk 11:19. ἀπό τινος (Jer 5:6; Sir 42:13) from Jericho Mt 20:29; Mk 10:46. ἐκεῖθεν 6:11 (cp. 2 Km 16:5). Cp. παρά τινος proceed from someone (Ezk 33:30) of the Spirit ὃ παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται J 15:26.
ⓒ w. the goal indicated: εἴς τι (X., An. 5, 6, 33; Jer 6:25; Ezk 44:19) εἰς ὁδόν set out on a journey Mk 10:17. εἰς ἀφεδρῶνα 7:19 (s. ἀφεδρών). ἐ. εἰς ἀνάστασιν ζωῆς come out (of the graves) to a resurrection that brings life (opp. κρίσεως) J 5:29. ἐπί τινα to someone (cp. Zech 6:6, 8) Rv 16:14. πρός τινα to someone (Judg 9:33; Is 36:16) Mt 3:5; Mk 1:5.
② to come forth from, come/go out, proceed, in imagery, of things, words, or thoughts τὸ ἐκπορευόμενον ἐκ τοῦ στόματος what comes out of the mouth (cp. Pr 3:16a) Mt 15:11, cp. vs. 18; Lk 4:22; Eph 4:29. For this τὰ ἐκ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐκπορευόμενα what comes out of a pers. Mk 7:15, cp. vs. 20. ἔσωθεν ἐκ τ. καρδίας vs. 21, cp. vs. 23. ῥῆμα ἐκπορευόμενον διὰ στόματος θεοῦ (διά A1a) Mt 4:4 (Dt 8:3). Of truth ἐ. ἐκ τοῦ στόματος Hm 3:1. Of fire, lightning, etc. (Job 41:12): lightning (Ezk 1:13) Rv 4:5; fire 9:17f; 11:5; fiery locusts Hv 4, 1, 6. Of streams of water flow out (Ezk 47:1, 8, 12) ἐκ τ. θρόνου τ. θεοῦ Rv 22:1 (ὑποκάτω τοῦ θρόνου ἐξεπορεύοντο ποταμοὶ πυρὸς En 14:19). Of a sword project ἐκ τ. στόματος 1:16; 19:15; ἐ. ἦχος περὶ αὐτοῦ εἰς πάντα τόπον reports about him spread into every place Lk 4:37.—M-M. TW."
I do not see in here anywhere that would necessitate the second meaning of the word...which, by the way, all are speaking of things created by another. However, in the English we would use the word "proceed" for all these meanings. "I proceeded from this place to that place." So in the Greek, the word used can simply mean, "moved from one location to another" or "sent." I think that would then put the burden of proof in their court to argue against what we actually mean when we say the filioque instead of using another definition of the word (which, by using that definition, creates problems for their own argument).
Anyway I've got to get to working and I am sure my word vomit has overloaded, so for the sake of both of us I will stop now!
To summarize:
1. What if we agree that the procession from the Son is not an origin (i.e. in eternity) of the Spirit, but simply him sending forth the Spirit in time? Is that orthodox?
2. What if we insist that it's not semi-sabellianism? Maybe Sabellianism could be inferred from the filioque; does that mean that the filioque necessitates sabellianism? Can't we accept a divine mystery that the Spirit proceeds from both but yet this is not modalism?
3. [Perhaps this is better for a RCC site] Why do we reject the dual procession? I.e., Roman dogma insists on the procession from both "as from a single source" - why can't the Spirit eternally proceed from both as two sources?
4. What makes us say that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father? The "ekporeuometai" (spelling?) in John 15:26 is not a perfect tense verb, so where do we get the idea of eternal? Is it simply the logical conclusion from (A) the spirit proceeds from the father and (B) the spirit is eternal so (C) the spirit eternally proceeds from the father? If so can't we replace the Major premise with (A) the spirit is sent by the father? and arrive at (C) the spirit is eternally sent from the father?
5. Isn't the EO view subordinationism for the Son [and the Spirit]?
Sorry, lots of rambling. This is a really long post, I know.