Baptism is a work.

[Oneofhope]

The Greek word here, ἐπερώτημα (eperotema), is an interesting word. It indicates longing, as in the longing for an answer, or an appeal--it can mean a leading question--the kind of question with an obvious answer or conclusion. It can also mean answer, or pledge, or promise.

1 Peter 3:21 is saying that baptism is the antitype of the flood/ark (1 Peter 3:20), which saves us; the way that baptism saves isn't about water washing dirt off our skin (οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου) but instead God's answer of a good conscience by Jesus Christ's resurrection. We come to the baptismal font, to receive what God has to give us there, ans what God gives us is a good conscience, we are converted, put into a new relationship with God, the removal of our guilt before God on account of sin and receiving God's good--because there is forgiveness here--by, on account of, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ's resurrection, His defeating of death, has undone death, by His cross and empty tomb He has reconciled us to the Father. And in Baptism we receive this good, this newness, so that we are no longer guilt-ridden sinners condemned but renewed and converted people, born again of God (see John 3:3-5 and Titus 3:5), and thus forgiven, justified, reconciled.

We came to the waters of baptism full of sin and guilt and condemnation; but here God--by His own good will and grace--washes us clean and renews us, heals us, saves us, regenerates us freely out of His kindness--because of what Christ has done for us.

There is nothing in 1 Peter 3:21 that presents baptism as some mere religious ritual that we do in order to earn something from God, or that we do in order to symbolically demonstrate this or that. Baptism isn't a symbol, it is the substantive reality of God's grace in action. God is doing something here, and what He is doing is nothing less than saving us, giving us something new, changing who we are and what we are in relation to Himself. Because here, as we learn elsewhere, we are clothed with the very Person and work of Jesus Christ, having died with Him, buried with Him, and now alive with Him by receiving His resurrection life. All by God's grace, received entirely through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

I love your writing style. Very clean and flows nicely. However, the final paragraph seems to indicate that water baptism contains some kind of Power. Are you saying that without being baptized a person cannot be saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course baptism is a work. A work that is intended to manifest one's faith.

Totally agree. Well said.

Peace and blessings be unto you in the Lord.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Are you saying that without being baptized a person cannot be saved?

I use the word "ordinary." The ordinary way the Christian is to live his life is by being baptized. This then allows for exceptions within the millions of difficult circumstances or hardship conditions Christian have faced over the centuries. On the other hand, "ordinary" rules out flat-out willful rejection or contempt of baptism an individual may have.

 

[Oneofhope]

I use the word "ordinary." The ordinary way the Christian is to live his life is by being baptized. This then allows for exceptions within the millions of difficult circumstances or hardship conditions Christian have faced over the centuries. On the other hand, "ordinary" rules out flat-out willful rejection or contempt of baptism an individual may have.

I get your last sentence, and it makes sense. When it was stated that if a person rejects physical circumcision, they are to be cut off from the Family of Circumcision, this would seem to apply to a modern-day person who also rejects water baptism. This willful rejection would seem to indicate the heart of an unrepented, unwilling person who does not agree with the terms of Salvation. Hence, they remain under the Spiritual Fatherhood of Satan.

When the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ, so was physical circumcision. Water baptism replaces that act so that Jews and Gentiles alike may share the exact same Faith. The wall of hostility is broken down and there is no longer the "circumcised" or "uncircumcised." True Jews and Gentiles worship the Lord in the exact same way, for we become united into one Body, the Body of Christ.

Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."

 

[Derf]

I get your last sentence, and it makes sense. When it was stated that if a person rejects physical circumcision, they are to be cut off from the Family of Circumcision, this would seem to apply to a modern-day person who also rejects water baptism. This willful rejection would seem to indicate the heart of an unrepented, unwilling person who does not agree with the terms of Salvation. Hence, they remain under the Spiritual Fatherhood of Satan.

When the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ, so was physical circumcision. Water baptism replaces that act so that Jews and Gentiles alike may share the exact same Faith. The wall of hostility is broken down and there is no longer the "circumcised" or "uncircumcised." True Jews and Gentiles worship the Lord in the exact same way, for we become united into one Body, the Body of Christ.

Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."

I like the way you put that. The same sort of language applies to the 10 commandments, imo. Though the law, written in stone, is still good, it's not the threats of curses that makes us want to do them, but the spirit of love toward our Lord.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I love your writing style. Very clean and flows nicely. However, the final paragraph seems to indicate that water baptism contains some kind of Power.

Baptism is a means of Grace--God's power is absolutely at work in the Sacrament.

Are you saying that without being baptized a person cannot be saved?

Nope, not saying that at all.

But baptism is salvific, there is salvation in baptism. "This baptism which now saves you" means what it says.

I think the reason why this trips some people up is that "salvation" or "being saved" is viewed differently by modern Evangelicals than it is by the more traditional and historic Christian churches. Salvation is viewed, traditionally, as a present activity of God, God is always saving us. Present tense. So, for example, in the Lutheran understanding of Justification, justification isn't a singular thing that happens, and then it's over. Justification is a present-tense reality, God is declaring us just on Christ's account continually, we receive the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith presently. And we talk about how God is saying this to us, doing this, giving us the righteousness of Christ, giving us the benefit of Christ's finished and perfect work, through Word and Sacrament. When we hear the Gospel being preached, when we read the Scriptures, when we hear about God's mercy, God's grace and love, His forgiveness, and that we are reckoned just on Christ's account--we are being justified, God is declaring us forgiven, blameless, holy, righteous--God is giving us this, His grace is constant, ever-present, unceasing.

That also means that salvation isn't transactional, neither is it only our initial conversion; rather it is our conversion which is a continual and daily reality of life with God in Christ, through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That means that not every single believer in Christ has the same conversion story. Some Christians were raised believing, there was never a time they can remember where they didn't know Jesus and His love for them; and because they were raised in a denomination and tradition that practiced "Believer's Baptism" only, they didn't get baptized until much later in their Christian life than, say, a Christian who was baptized as an infant.

Some Christians, were baptized as infants or very young children, and also were raised in the faith, brought up in the word, confessing the Gospel since childhood.

Some Christians were raised in non-believing homes, and ended up hearing the Gospel preached for the first time by a peer from school or work or a family member; and then hearing the word it buries itself and God, whether slowly or more quickly, causes that seed to sprout, and grow, creating faith where there was previously no faith. They come, believing and desiring to learn, and are taught in the things of Christ at church by a community of brothers and sisters, with a minister of Word and Sacrament preaching the word, and they are then perhaps after some time of learning brought to the waters of baptism.

Some Christians were raised in a Christian home, or perhaps only a nominally and not that observant Christian home, they believe while very young, but along the way that seed of the word which was planted in them took root, but perhaps withered due to not being watered, or perhaps life's thorns and thistles choked it and their faith was starved and withered. They, for a season, were outside of the household of faith, living like the prodigal son; but through the continual love of God expressed through preachers of the Gospel, and by whatever circumstances of life they found themselves and which God worked toward the good, the child who was lost became found again, the little lamb who wandered off is brought back by the Good Shepherd to the sheepfold.

There are many stories, each perhaps entirely unique to each person whom God calls to Himself, but it is always God's grace, God's love, God's unyielding and indestructible mercy toward us lowly sinners that saves us. He is saving us every day, out of His gracious and unconquerable love for us in Christ, who died for us that we should live; who defeated sin, death, hell, and the devil and rescues us out of the kingdom of darkness and brings us into the marvelous light of God where we share in the riches and and bounty of His love, His precious gifts, His love with which He showers us daily--through Word and Sacrament. God brings us to the Feast of Feasts, sits us at the Table, adorns us with robes of Christ's righteousness, and we partake of all His endless mercies--He is saving us, rescuing us, healing us, and one day you and I will burst out of the tombs within which our mortal bodies were lain; for Christ coming again in glory shall raise up all the dead, all who are His shall rise and meet Him, and He shall reign forever and ever when God makes all things new.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[fhansen]

Baptism is a means of Grace--God's power is absolutely at work in the Sacrament.



Nope, not saying that at all.

But baptism is salvific, there is salvation in baptism. "This baptism which now saves you" means what it says.

I think the reason why this trips some people up is that "salvation" or "being saved" is viewed differently by modern Evangelicals than it is by the more traditional and historic Christian churches. Salvation is viewed, traditionally, as a present activity of God, God is always saving us. Present tense. So, for example, in the Lutheran understanding of Justification, justification isn't a singular thing that happens, and then it's over. Justification is a present-tense reality, God is declaring us just on Christ's account continually, we receive the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith presently. And we talk about how God is saying this to us, doing this, giving us the righteousness of Christ, giving us the benefit of Christ's finished and perfect work, through Word and Sacrament. When we hear the Gospel being preached, when we read the Scriptures, when we hear about God's mercy, God's grace and love, His forgiveness, and that we are reckoned just on Christ's account--we are being justified, God is declaring us forgiven, blameless, holy, righteous--God is giving us this, His grace is constant, ever-present, unceasing.

That also means that salvation isn't transactional, neither is it only our initial conversion; rather it is our conversion which is a continual and daily reality of life with God in Christ, through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That means that not every single believer in Christ has the same conversion story. Some Christians were raised believing, there was never a time they can remember where they didn't know Jesus and His love for them; and because they were raised in a denomination and tradition that practiced "Believer's Baptism" only, they didn't get baptized until much later in their Christian life than, say, a Christian who was baptized as an infant.

Some Christians, were baptized as infants or very young children, and also were raised in the faith, brought up in the word, confessing the Gospel since childhood.

Some Christians were raised in non-believing homes, and ended up hearing the Gospel preached for the first time by a peer from school or work or a family member; and then hearing the word it buries itself and God, whether slowly or more quickly, causes that seed to sprout, and grow, creating faith where there was previously no faith. They come, believing and desiring to learn, and are taught in the things of Christ at church by a community of brothers and sisters, with a minister of Word and Sacrament preaching the word, and they are then perhaps after some time of learning brought to the waters of baptism.

Some Christians were raised in a Christian home, or perhaps only a nominally and not that observant Christian home, they believe while very young, but along the way that seed of the word which was planted in them took root, but perhaps withered due to not being watered, or perhaps life's thorns and thistles choked it and their faith was starved and withered. They, for a season, were outside of the household of faith, living like the prodigal son; but through the continual love of God expressed through preachers of the Gospel, and by whatever circumstances of life they found themselves and which God worked toward the good, the child who was lost became found again, the little lamb who wandered off is brought back by the Good Shepherd to the sheepfold.

There are many stories, each perhaps entirely unique to each person whom God calls to Himself, but it is always God's grace, God's love, God's unyielding and indestructible mercy toward us lowly sinners that saves us. He is saving us every day, out of His gracious and unconquerable love for us in Christ, who died for us that we should live; who defeated sin, death, hell, and the devil and rescues us out of the kingdom of darkness and brings us into the marvelous light of God where we share in the riches and and bounty of His love, His precious gifts, His love with which He showers us daily--through Word and Sacrament. God brings us to the Feast of Feasts, sits us at the Table, adorns us with robes of Christ's righteousness, and we partake of all His endless mercies--He is saving us, rescuing us, healing us, and one day you and I will burst out of the tombs within which our mortal bodies were lain; for Christ coming again in glory shall raise up all the dead, all who are His shall rise and meet Him, and He shall reign forever and ever when God makes all things new.

-CryptoLutheran

Well said-as usual. I think we could say that baptism is the normative means that God provides-and that we'd be culpable for not obeying the command to the extent that we know of it and understand its purpose. Not all, obviously, will even have the opportunity to observe it whether they wish to or not. And God. who judges by the heart and is infinitely just, acts accordingly.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Baptism is a means of Grace--God's power is absolutely at work in the Sacrament.



Nope, not saying that at all.

But baptism is salvific, there is salvation in baptism. "This baptism which now saves you" means what it says.

I think the reason why this trips some people up is that "salvation" or "being saved" is viewed differently by modern Evangelicals than it is by the more traditional and historic Christian churches. Salvation is viewed, traditionally, as a present activity of God, God is always saving us. Present tense. So, for example, in the Lutheran understanding of Justification, justification isn't a singular thing that happens, and then it's over. Justification is a present-tense reality, God is declaring us just on Christ's account continually, we receive the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith presently. And we talk about how God is saying this to us, doing this, giving us the righteousness of Christ, giving us the benefit of Christ's finished and perfect work, through Word and Sacrament. When we hear the Gospel being preached, when we read the Scriptures, when we hear about God's mercy, God's grace and love, His forgiveness, and that we are reckoned just on Christ's account--we are being justified, God is declaring us forgiven, blameless, holy, righteous--God is giving us this, His grace is constant, ever-present, unceasing.

That also means that salvation isn't transactional, neither is it only our initial conversion; rather it is our conversion which is a continual and daily reality of life with God in Christ, through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That means that not every single believer in Christ has the same conversion story. Some Christians were raised believing, there was never a time they can remember where they didn't know Jesus and His love for them; and because they were raised in a denomination and tradition that practiced "Believer's Baptism" only, they didn't get baptized until much later in their Christian life than, say, a Christian who was baptized as an infant.

Some Christians, were baptized as infants or very young children, and also were raised in the faith, brought up in the word, confessing the Gospel since childhood.

Some Christians were raised in non-believing homes, and ended up hearing the Gospel preached for the first time by a peer from school or work or a family member; and then hearing the word it buries itself and God, whether slowly or more quickly, causes that seed to sprout, and grow, creating faith where there was previously no faith. They come, believing and desiring to learn, and are taught in the things of Christ at church by a community of brothers and sisters, with a minister of Word and Sacrament preaching the word, and they are then perhaps after some time of learning brought to the waters of baptism.

Some Christians were raised in a Christian home, or perhaps only a nominally and not that observant Christian home, they believe while very young, but along the way that seed of the word which was planted in them took root, but perhaps withered due to not being watered, or perhaps life's thorns and thistles choked it and their faith was starved and withered. They, for a season, were outside of the household of faith, living like the prodigal son; but through the continual love of God expressed through preachers of the Gospel, and by whatever circumstances of life they found themselves and which God worked toward the good, the child who was lost became found again, the little lamb who wandered off is brought back by the Good Shepherd to the sheepfold.

There are many stories, each perhaps entirely unique to each person whom God calls to Himself, but it is always God's grace, God's love, God's unyielding and indestructible mercy toward us lowly sinners that saves us. He is saving us every day, out of His gracious and unconquerable love for us in Christ, who died for us that we should live; who defeated sin, death, hell, and the devil and rescues us out of the kingdom of darkness and brings us into the marvelous light of God where we share in the riches and and bounty of His love, His precious gifts, His love with which He showers us daily--through Word and Sacrament. God brings us to the Feast of Feasts, sits us at the Table, adorns us with robes of Christ's righteousness, and we partake of all His endless mercies--He is saving us, rescuing us, healing us, and one day you and I will burst out of the tombs within which our mortal bodies were lain; for Christ coming again in glory shall raise up all the dead, all who are His shall rise and meet Him, and He shall reign forever and ever when God makes all things new.

-CryptoLutheran

Just excellent. Enjoyed how you wove "justification by faith" with the parable of the sower. The Scriptures are silent on second generation Christians and their families. And so we would not expect conversion stories or experiences to be identical where multi-generational-faith exists within the household.

 

[Oneofhope]

Baptism is a means of Grace--God's power is absolutely at work in the Sacrament.

All that I can say is that I finally became a genuine Christian, Powerfully filled by the Holy Spirit, Circumcised by Christ . . . right in the middle of the Arizona Desert. When that happened to me, I realized that I was never a true Christian before my Powerful experience. Being free of the Sinful Nature and having it replaced with the Divine Nature . . . the process of Sanctification is unbelievable. When a person is no longer controlled by the Devil and they experience this exile from prison, only to then be controlled by the Spirit of God . . . the change is unbelievable, not only in thought but personal behaviors of self, as well as those around will begin to treat you differently as well. The Power to save a person and the Power to predict what will happen to them after they are saved (father against son, brother against brother, etc.) is staggering.

If a person wants to believe that water baptism somehow saves them . . . ok. I have never been able to convince a person with a belief to change their mind. Instead, I offer my story of experience, and if it means anything at all, that would be great. However, it is my experience of being saved without water . . . right in the middle of the desert. I was baptized by full immersion at age twelve and only proceeded to become more and more corrupt over the decades . . . until God finally pulled the plug and me and my old life that was controlled by a Sinful Nature. Water Baptism did not save me . . . God saved me as He found me; where is irrelevant, for God can save a person before another drop of water ever touches their body or lips.

When I share the Saving Plan with a person, if they are not compelled to receive water baptism after they accept the terms of Christ's Salvation, I wouldn't consider them a Christian Brother or Sister. Those who have had the same Love for Jesus that God has for His Son planted into their hearts and minds WILL BE compelled to receive Water Baptism. People think that they aren't held captive by God after having been purchased by Christ. People who are saved think that they don't have to spread the Message of Christ, yet consider themselves "Saved." But these people don't understand the Power of God, for we are held His prisoner with the primary purpose of serving Him. And how do these True Children of God serve Him? They do all they can to learn and know not only the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ but the entire Story of God. A Child of God's mind will be Transformed and will no longer think the way it once did. This includes the nearly insane desire to know and understand the entire Story of God and His remarkable Gospel, Saving Plan.

Being dipped in water accomplishes none of those things above. If it did, we would hear of Romans 12:2 Transformation stories after every water baptism. But the truth is, however, that virtually no one ever, and I mean ever talks about their Spiritual Transformation that was Powerfully led by the Spirit of God. No one talks about these things; no one has a story that is being forced out of them by God's authority and ownership. Virtually no one talks about being held captive by God with the express Purpose of spreading His message, for to know of this drawing Power, and those of us who do, we know that when we are Purchased by Christ, we [will] know this Holy Message and we [will] spread it.

Water doesn't create these kings of things to say. Receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit does, however.

 

[Oneofhope]

I like the way you put that. The same sort of language applies to the 10 commandments, imo. Though the law, written in stone, is still good, it's not the threats of curses that makes us want to do them, but the spirit of love toward our Lord.

Wow. And in turn, I like what you wrote.

 

[ViaCrucis]

All that I can say is that I finally became a genuine Christian, Powerfully filled by the Holy Spirit, Circumcised by Christ . . . right in the middle of the Arizona Desert. When that happened to me, I realized that I was never a true Christian before my Powerful experience. Being free of the Sinful Nature and having it replaced with the Divine Nature . . . the process of Sanctification is unbelievable. When a person is no longer controlled by the Devil and they experience this exile from prison, only to then be controlled by the Spirit of God . . . the change is unbelievable, not only in thought but personal behaviors of self, as well as those around will begin to treat you differently as well. The Power to save a person and the Power to predict what will happen to them after they are saved (father against son, brother against brother, etc.) is staggering.

If a person wants to believe that water baptism somehow saves them . . . ok. I have never been able to convince a person with a belief to change their mind. Instead, I offer my story of experience, and if it means anything at all, that would be great. However, it is my experience of being saved without water . . . right in the middle of the desert. I was baptized by full immersion at age twelve and only proceeded to become more and more corrupt over the decades . . . until God finally pulled the plug and me and my old life that was controlled by a Sinful Nature. Water Baptism did not save me . . . God saved me as He found me; where is irrelevant, for God can save a person before another drop of water ever touches their body or lips.

When I share the Saving Plan with a person, if they are not compelled to receive water baptism after they accept the terms of Christ's Salvation, I wouldn't consider them a Christian Brother or Sister. Those who have had the same Love for Jesus that God has for His Son planted into their hearts and minds WILL BE compelled to receive Water Baptism. People think that they aren't held captive by God after having been purchased by Christ. People who are saved think that they don't have to spread the Message of Christ, yet consider themselves "Saved." But these people don't understand the Power of God, for we are held His prisoner with the primary purpose of serving Him. And how do these True Children of God serve Him? They do all they can to learn and know not only the Saving Plan of Jesus Christ but the entire Story of God. A Child of God's mind will be Transformed and will no longer think the way it once did. This includes the nearly insane desire to know and understand the entire Story of God and His remarkable Gospel, Saving Plan.

Being dipped in water accomplishes none of those things above. If it did, we would hear of Romans 12:2 Transformation stories after every water baptism. But the truth is, however, that virtually no one ever, and I mean ever talks about their Spiritual Transformation that was Powerfully led by the Spirit of God. No one talks about these things; no one has a story that is being forced out of them by God's authority and ownership. Virtually no one talks about being held captive by God with the express Purpose of spreading His message, for to know of this drawing Power, and those of us who do, we know that when we are Purchased by Christ, we [will] know this Holy Message and we [will] spread it.

Water doesn't create these kings of things to say. Receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit does, however.

There are a lot of things I would like to say concerning this, but I'll keep it narrowly focused on baptism: Why would you deny God's work and activity in your life prior to whatever happened to you in that Arizona desert?

Because you didn't become "actually saved" until then? Is God's grace insufficient? Is His word insufficient? His love insufficient? God comes down through Word and Sacrament and works--He acts.

Read the Parable of the Sower, when the seed of the word is planted what happens? If the word takes root, then even if its roots are not yet that deep, even if the sprout isn't that big--it's still alive, right? It could wither in the hot sun, or be choked, or any number of things--but it has taken root, the word is there living and active and that word does something, it creates faith (Romans 10:17).

God has supplied to each of us, the Scripture says, a measure of faith. Not every Christian is at the same spot in their life of faith. Some are newborn infants, some are more mature, some think they are mature but still need much growth still.

Christ has also told us to take up our cross. What does that cross look like? Well it depends right? Not everyone carries the same cross. Did not the Apostle himself speak of a thorn in his flesh, and when he prayed what did the Lord tell him? "My grace is sufficient for you, My power is made evident in weakness." We don't know what Paul's particular thorn was, but it was his struggle, part of his cross to bear as a follower of Jesus.

We must all wrestle against the passions of the flesh, fortunately the Lord has not left us orphans, but the Spirit dwells in us, the Lord walks with us, and in our struggles He is there reminding us gently of His grace and mercy; even as we are called to repentance. For "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, but if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" is what St. John has written in his epistle for us. In this life we will struggle, there will be the struggle between the old man and the new man. And that, too, is our cross.

The Christian life is never easy, it is always hard; for our Lord said His way, the way of life, is hard and narrow, few find it. But conversely the way of death is wide, comfortable, easy--it provides us no resistance because it is easy to live according to the passions of our flesh. But to deny ourselves, to repent, to confess our sins, to rely on God, and to go against our baser instincts to walk in accordance with the way of God is immeasurably difficult. In fact, not a single one of us can do this--we need God's grace, we need the Spirit's aid and help. We need the Church, we need the word of God, we need the Sacraments, we need to lean upon, in faith, the strong arms of God who is always strong in our weakness.

So don't say that you weren't a "genuine Christian", as though God was not at work, was not leading and calling and giving you His gifts. In your baptism God did what He said He would do. The Scriptures say it, and the Scriptures do not lie. God is with us, because Christ is for us, and the Spirit is in us; and by His Word and Sacraments He comes down, gives us His gifts, loves us, and is always at work.

His work, not ours, makes us what we are in Christ. And it is only in this--His grace--that we should now begin to be disciples, that to live is Christ and to die is gain.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Oneofhope]

Why would you deny God's work and activity in your life prior to whatever happened to you in that Arizona desert?

I'm sorry. I didn't convey myself properly. If I had, it would have been more clear that God [did not] perform any Work in my life until my Spiritula Experience. This was the "Work" of Christ being conduction. I received Spiritual Circumcision, the ability to actually Repent, and the third Work given was His sending the Holy Spirit. Prior to this day, none of these Works were performed in my life. If they had, I would have become aware, made evident by a changed life.

This means that during the course of my entire life, the "Christian" that I thought I was . . . I was not. I was not saved at all. I would not receive the Lord's Grace of a Circumcised heart until age 49. I was finally Baptized by the Spirit, the one Baptism that is required. Once this Spiritual Baptism takes place, a person is then led by the Spirit with their newly Circumcised heart, a heart that has been set free from the Devil's captivity. Until this release, no one is free to serve and worship the Lord. Spiritual Circumcision is this release. When finally released, and person can then Repent and will assuredly change after being given the leading and guiding Holy Spirit.

We aren't "saved" because we claim to be, but instead, when a person is "saved" and "set free," they will know it. They won't have to wonder of their Spiritual freedom from the Fatherhood of the Devil any more than they will have to wonder if they are really set free from a worldly prison. Freedom is obvious just as is enslavement.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm sorry. I didn't convey myself properly. If I had, it would have been more clear that God [did not] perform any Work in my life until my Spiritula Experience. This was the "Work" of Christ being conduction. I received Spiritual Circumcision, the ability to actually Repent, and the third Work given was His sending the Holy Spirit. Prior to this day, none of these Works were performed in my life. If they had, I would have become aware, made evident by a changed life.

This means that during the course of my entire life, the "Christian" that I thought I was . . . I was not. I was not saved at all. I would not receive the Lord's Grace of a Circumcised heart until age 49. I was finally Baptized by the Spirit, the one Baptism that is required. Once this Spiritual Baptism takes place, a person is then led by the Spirit with their newly Circumcised heart, a heart that has been set free from the Devil's captivity. Until this release, no one is free to serve and worship the Lord. Spiritual Circumcision is this release. When finally released, and person can then Repent and will assuredly change after being given the leading and guiding Holy Spirit.

We aren't "saved" because we claim to be, but instead, when a person is "saved" and "set free," they will know it. They won't have to wonder of their Spiritual freedom from the Fatherhood of the Devil any more than they will have to wonder if they are really set free from a worldly prison. Freedom is obvious just as is enslavement.

Let's just say that I disagree.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Oneofhope]

Let's just say that I disagree.

-CryptoLutheran

Yep. All "christians" disagree with my Spiritual Experience and render it incorrect. However, what happened to me is in full alignment with the Scriptures. My experience has been so completely disregarded that it doesn't bother me any longer. Just a few weeks ago I was trying to have a great conversation with an elderly man who had been to seminary. As he became more rude and heated, as most "christians" do, the conversation ended with his saying, "Well. Goodbye, and have a great life!" Of course, that was said without a shred of Godly Love.

1 John 4:6 CSB - "We are from God. Anyone who knows God listens to us; anyone who is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception. "

 

[fhansen]

Yep. All "christians" disagree with my Spiritual Experience and render it incorrect. However, what happened to me is in full alignment with the Scriptures. My experience has been so completely disregarded that it doesn't bother me any longer. Just a few weeks ago I was trying to have a great conversation with an elderly man who had been to seminary. As he became more rude and heated, as most "christians" do, the conversation ended with his saying, "Well. Goodbye, and have a great life!" Of course, that was said without a shred of Godly Love.

1 John 4:6 CSB - "We are from God. Anyone who knows God listens to us; anyone who is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception. "

We shouldn't judge everything based solely our own individual experiences, especially since scripture isn't always so clear and God works in mysterious ways often tailored to our own personal walks and backgrounds. I value the experience of the early church in any case which definitely aligns with scripture. I also know that God's never done with us, and we often end up changing despite ourselves, and consequently some of our opinions may change as well. Either way, you are another "christian", along with the rest of us.

 

[Oneofhope]

We shouldn't judge everything based solely our own individual experiences, especially since scripture isn't always so clear and God works in mysterious ways often tailored to our own personal walks and backgrounds. I value the experience of the early church in any case which definitely aligns with scripture. I also know that God's never done with us, and we often end up changing despite ourselves, and consequently some of our opinions may change as well. Either way, you are another "christian", along with the rest of us.

I appreciate your advice, but you and I are on different planes. We don't see things the same way, and it has to do with the below passage:

John 9:39-40 NKJV - "And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?"

What you currently "see" is what I used to "see" prior to my Transformation of thought.

Take care . . .

 

[fhansen]

I appreciate your advice, but you and I are on different planes. We don't see things the same way, and it has to do with the below passage:

John 9:39-40 NKJV - "And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind." Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?"

What you currently "see" is what I used to "see" prior to my Transformation of thought.

Take care . . .

oh

 

[Oneofhope]

oh

Exactly.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yep. All "christians" disagree with my Spiritual Experience and render it incorrect. However, what happened to me is in full alignment with the Scriptures.

Woah, hold on a minute.
Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you, or has an experience which is different from yours is not a Christian? If not, why did you put the word Christian in " "?
All of us come to Christ in different ways.
I once had someone say to me, "when did you become a Christian?" and I answered that it was a gradual thing; probably leading to a commitment when I was 15/16. He replied, "well if you can't tell me the date on which you became a Christian, I would question whether you are one". He walked off rather quickly - probably so that I could not question his theology or pull him up for his insensitivity.
He didn't know that I spent, at least, the next few months doubting if I was a Christian. I could even have left the church altogether, for all he knew or cared.
I now believe that his statement was completely wrong. If I ever saw him again on earth, I'd tell him exactly what I thought of it.
But just because I didn't share his experience, nor he mine, did not mean that either of us was not a true believer.

 

[Oneofhope]

Woah, hold on a minute.
Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with you, or has an experience which is different from yours is not a Christian? If not, why did you put the word Christian in " "?
All of us come to Christ in different ways.
I once had someone say to me, "when did you become a Christian?" and I answered that it was a gradual thing; probably leading to a commitment when I was 15/16. He replied, "well if you can't tell me the date on which you became a Christian, I would question whether you are one". He walked off rather quickly - probably so that I could not question his theology or pull him up for his insensitivity.
He didn't know that I spent, at least, the next few months doubting if I was a Christian. I could even have left the church altogether, for all he knew or cared.
I now believe that his statement was completely wrong. If I ever saw him again on earth, I'd tell him exactly what I thought of it.
But just because I didn't share his experience, nor he mine, did not mean that either of us was not a true believer.

It is unfortunate that you disapprove, but isn't this what I was talking about? And here it is happening again.

Becoming a Christian doesn't happen any more slowly than a person is released from prison slowly. Do you understand the Story of God that spans from Genesis to Revelation? I mean, do you actually understand the Bible in a timeline, chronological order?