At what point in time does Revelations 4 & 5 take place?

[Tigger Boy]

I think most of us would agree that at any time a prophetic event within any apocalyptic prophecy comes to fulfillment, that event becomes, "time stamped", however, not the entire prophecy for it may have other chronological events to follow. With that said, Revelation 4&5 reveal a heavenly, "court room scene". Assuming you think it has been fulfilled, what biblical support, would you give for that point in time?

 

[HTacianas]

I think most of us would agree that at any time a prophetic event within any apocalyptic prophecy comes to fulfillment, that event becomes, "time stamped", however, not the entire prophecy for it may have other chronological events to follow. With that said, Revelation 4&5 reveal a heavenly, "court room scene". Assuming you think it has been fulfilled, what biblical support, would you give for that point in time?

The writer said he observed it so it had to have occurred during his lifetime.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The writer said he observed it so it had to have occurred during his lifetime.

If that were true, then wouldn't that mean also that all the prophetic visions John saw, including the mark of the beast, seven last plagues, return of Christ, the 1k years, of chapter 20, were also in the past? Of course the answer in no. Most all apocalyptic events shown Daniel and John, were futuristic by centuries.

 

[Gary K]

The writer said he observed it so it had to have occurred during his lifetime.

Hmmm. Revelation is a book of prophecy so how could anything it have already passed when John wrote the book.

 

[Gary K]

I think most of us would agree that at any time a prophetic event within any apocalyptic prophecy comes to fulfillment, that event becomes, "time stamped", however, not the entire prophecy for it may have other chronological events to follow. With that said, Revelation 4&5 reveal a heavenly, "court room scene". Assuming you think it has been fulfilled, what biblical support, would you give for that point in time?

Hmmm. Quote the verses you think depict a court of law.

 

[HTacianas]

Hmmm. Revelation is a book of prophecy so how could anything it have already passed when John wrote the book.

Rev 1:19 “Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

 

[Gary K]

Rev 1:19 “Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

Jesus is talking to John about the things he has been shown in vision.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[reddogs]

I think most of us would agree that at any time a prophetic event within any apocalyptic prophecy comes to fulfillment, that event becomes, "time stamped", however, not the entire prophecy for it may have other chronological events to follow. With that said, Revelation 4&5 reveal a heavenly, "court room scene". Assuming you think it has been fulfilled, what biblical support, would you give for that point in time?

Revelation 4 shows the same event as Revelation 20:11

Revelation 4
​

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 20:11-15
​

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

While Revelation 5 lines up with Revelation 20 especially verse 4 and 6.

Revelation 5
​

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20
​

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[HTacianas]

Jesus is talking to John about the things he has been shown in vision.

He is told to write "things you have seen" -past-, "the things which are" -present-, and "the things which will take place after this" - future.

 

[Gary K]

He is told to write "things you have seen" -past-, "the things which are" -present-, and "the things which will take place after this" - future.

And the book of Revelation is a prophetic book. Those events which are seen in the past cannot be prophetic to the person having the vision.

 

[Gary K]

Revelation 4 shows the same event as Revelation 20:11

Revelation 4​

​

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 20:11-15​

​

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

While Revelation 5 lines up with Revelation 20 especially verse 4 and 6.

Revelation 5​

​

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20​

​

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I have to disagree with you. Chapter 5 looks forward to the judgment but is not the judgment itself as chapter 20 is. Chapter 20 depicts the scene of the court room of God. Chapter 5 does not.

 

[HTacianas]

And the book of Revelation is a prophetic book. Those events which are seen in the past cannot be prophetic to the person having the vision.

So, regardless of what it actually says, it can only have the meaning that you assign to it?

 

[Gary K]

So, regardless of what it actually says, it can only have the meaning that you assign to it?

You can assign scripture any meaning you please. But, if someone really wants to understand Revelation the context of the book must be understood by the context of the opening chapter where the wording tells us this is a prophetic book and written by John after Jesus tells/shows him what is to come in the future.

 

[HTacianas]

You can assign scripture any meaning you please. But, if someone really wants to understand Revelation the context of the book must be understood by the context of the opening chapter where the wording tells us this is a prophetic book and written by John after Jesus tells/shows him what is to come in the future.

So when the writer identifies it as prophecy at Rev 1:3, that means everything that comes afterwards is the future? Like at Rev 2:3 he writes "you have persevered" means you will at some point in the future perservere?

 

[Gary K]

So when the writer identifies it as prophecy at Rev 1:3, that means everything that comes afterwards is the future? Like at Rev 2:3 he writes "you have persevered" means you will at some point in the future perservere?

Read the surrounding context. Don't take a single verse and try to make it say something all by itself, Context is king. Jesus is warning the church of Ephesus that if they don't repent of leaving their first love for Him He will reject them and they will lose their salvation. That chapter and chapter three are all warnings to, what was to John, future church periods.

 

[BobRyan]

I think most of us would agree that at any time a prophetic event within any apocalyptic prophecy comes to fulfillment, that event becomes, "time stamped", however, not the entire prophecy for it may have other chronological events to follow. With that said, Revelation 4&5 reveal a heavenly, "court room scene". Assuming you think it has been fulfilled, what biblical support, would you give for that point in time?

Dan 7 shows us the heavenly courtroom and shows that it takes place at a time after the rise of the 11th horn of Dan 7, after the persecution of the saints and before the 2nd coming.

Dan 8 tells us that the Dan 7 courtroom event started in 1844.

I have to disagree with you. Chapter 5 looks forward to the judgment but is not the judgment itself as chapter 20 is. Chapter 20 depicts the scene of the court room of God. Chapter 5 does not.

True Rev 4 is not the judgment scene in heaven, Rev 5 is related to it - but is not that event per se.

Rev 11 describes the start of that judgment event

Rev 11: 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

As in Dan 7 -- this Rev 11 event in heaven takes place after the 1260 years of dark ages.


So then in Rev 14:7 "the hour of his judgment HAS come" is a reference to "The time came for the dead to be judged" - and "The temple in heaven was opened and the ark of His covenant appeared" (The most Holy Place in the temple)

 

[Tigger Boy]

Revelation 4 shows the same event as Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

While Revelation 5 lines up with Revelation 20 especially verse 4 and 6.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Reddogs, appreciate your response as you addressed my question with bible texts in support. However, I was surprised you believe it points to a specific point in time, "the great white throne judgement at the end of Christ millennial reign in heavy. Whereas, corporate Adventist teach, "This varied setting suggests that the vision of chs. 4 and 5 is not to be thought of as representing any one specific occurrence in heaven, but as a timeless, highly symbolic portrayal of the victory of Christ and the resulting vindication of God." (SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY, VOL. 7, PG. 774)

That is not to say as individuals each of us are not entitled to our own personal convictions. I believe we are not saved by understanding "absolute truth", but through faith. Praise God.

I would like to share why I think it can not be as stated in the above quote, nor as you expressed, " the great white throne judgement."
It is based firmly on the hermeneutic I posted in the #15 post on your thread, "Who is the Daniel 8 Prophecy....". For convenience of others following this thread I will post it here on this thread as well. So anyone disagreeing with my reasoning should disprove the following hermeneutic:

Who but God Has the Authority to Declare Chronological Order?
The visions within Daniel behave in a predictable way. Once this behavior is detected, it keeps us on track. It helps us decipher prophecies and enlightens us with information that we could not otherwise know. For example, one consistent behavior that occurs throughout the book of Daniel is, that each prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point in time, and the events within each prophecy occur in the order in which they are given. This chronological behavior may sound simple, but it has profound ramifcations. Consider the results of violating this behavior. If the events given within a particular prophecy do not occur in the order given, who has the authority to declare the order of events? Does anyone other than God have the authority to change the order that He created?
The chronological behavior found in Daniel’s prophecies is the basis for Rule One.. Be assured, I am not inventing a rule. I am expressing a consistent behavior that recurs without exception throughout the book of Daniel (as well as the book of Revelation).
When the fulfilled elements in Daniel and Revelation are alignedwith widely published historical records, the validity of Rule One proves true every time! The prophecies in Daniel began unfolding more than 2,600 years ago. Some of the prophecies in Revelation began unfolding 2,000 years ago. These lengthy periods of time contain a sufficient sample to validate the four rules that spring from Daniel’s architecture. The book of Daniel also provides a historical foundation for some of the prophecies in Revelation. Since prophecies in Revelation run parallel to prophecies in Daniel we can link them together and establish the timing of events mentioned in both books. So, the use of Daniel’s architecture, like the hieroglyphics on the Rosetta Stone, enables us to resolve many prophetic mysteries that would otherwise be impossible to resolve.

The importance of this rule cannot be overstated. Draw a time line on a big sheet of paper and place all of the events specified in Daniel and Revelation on this time line. If you attempt this, you will immediately confront the question of chronological order. Rule One is decep- tively simple. It is also incredibly powerful. It demolishes two thousand years of prophetic speculation and tradition. Think about this: If God has not declared the chronological order of events within each apocalyptic prophecy, there is no chronological order
in apocalyptic prophecy. If there is no order. On the other hand, if God has declared chronological order, apocalyptic prophecy becomes a science and there is prophetic certainty (“the more sure word of prophecy”) instead of endless chaos and cancelling views. Everyone is permitted to defne and create whatever prophetic order and interpretation they want. This ongoing process has produced a cloud of confusion and as a result, many Christians treat prophecy with contempt. Worse, there is no general agreement among Christians on the next prophetic event.

Looking backwards from our day, world history proves there is chronological order in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. This is good news because the final generation can know and understand prophecies that previous generations could not discover! Remember, God’s greatest gift to the honest in heart is greater truth. This gift will never end throughout eternity! During the Great Tribulation God will swing a powerful magnet of truth over a junk pile called Earth and the honest in heart will be attracted and captured by its power and the rest of mankind will feel nothing. This is how the sheep will be separated from the goats.

These insights and Mrs. White council, have reshaped how I view our Historical interpretation. As I have said, we need to take a new look a apocalyptic prophecy based on "progressive revelations." Very, Very, few Adventist are even willing to consider entering a conversation that entertains such thoughts. Church leaders especially. Christ faced the same hurtle as well as the reformers, and the Millerites.

Did early expositors understand this hermeneutic, did Mrs. White? No. Was that there fault or had God kept it sealed up in the Book of Daniel until, "the time of the end"? (Dan.12:4&9)

In consideration of the interpretation put forth in our commentary as quoted above. One should ask: Well, what is the specific hermeneutic, and how does it apply to this prophecy as opposed to others? Does fulfilled prophecy, prove to validate any such hermeneutic? If not, then is it not merely a private interpretation, void of a valid/provable hermeneutic, which are for the benefit of revealing the intended interpretation of prophecy canceling out personal bias? I believe they are.

If this makes sense, then we can easily conclude that since Rev. 4&5 certainly have chronological events such as: 1)The Father is shown
holding a scroll with seven seals, and a angle proclaims, " who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll." (5:1)
2)The appearance of a Lamb looking as it had been slain, (past tense, from John's day), and found worthy to take the scroll from the Father and open it's seals (vss.6-10) 3) After this point in time, the Lamb (Jesus) receives something He had not yet received since His incarnation, as man, Power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise. (vss. 11, 12)

Too, this prophecy confirms a flow of chronological events, other wise Jesus could not have received the book from the Father if He had not first been proven worthy, and so forth. This proves the court room scene is not, " A timeless, highly symbolic portrayal of the victory of Christ", as we corporately interpret it.

One other point I wish to make is to your interpretation Reddogs. Rev.4:1 -6:17 is but one prophecy, thus all of the events flow in chronological order. ( I suggest reading it with that in mind) Chapter and verse delineation, as you know was added centuries after the the original texts. Therefore, students of prophecy should not assume that each prophecy starts and ends within each chapter.
Events in chapter six follow the events of chapter 5, in chronological order. (vs.6:1) says: " I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals." [on the scroll He, Jesus, received from the Father] The prophecy clearly indicates the opening of the seven seals follow the court room event, not the reverse, as you have placed the court room event at the end of the Millennium.

Prophecy clearly reveals the dating of the court room event, and should you be interested in knowing the timing I will share that with you or any other individual in another post. Just inform me of your interest. But meantime I've given you and others a lot to digest in this post.

Blessing

 

[Gary K]

Reddogs, appreciate your response as you addressed my question with bible texts in support. However, I was surprised you believe it points to a specific point in time, "the great white throne judgement at the end of Christ millennial reign in heavy. Whereas, corporate Adventist teach, "This varied setting suggests that the vision of chs. 4 and 5 is not to be thought of as representing any one specific occurrence in heaven, but as a timeless, highly symbolic portrayal of the victory of Christ and the resulting vindication of God." (SDA BIBLE COMMENTARY, VOL. 7, PG. 774)

That is not to say as individuals each of us are not entitled to our own personal convictions. I believe we are not saved by understanding "absolute truth", but through faith. Praise God.

I would like to share why I think it can not be as stated in the above quote, nor as you expressed, " the great white throne judgement."
It is based firmly on the hermeneutic I posted in the #15 post on your thread, "Who is the Daniel 8 Prophecy....". For convenience of others following this thread I will post it here on this thread as well. So anyone disagreeing with my reasoning should disprove the following hermeneutic:

Who but God Has the Authority to Declare Chronological Order?
The visions within Daniel behave in a predictable way. Once this behavior is detected, it keeps us on track. It helps us decipher prophecies and enlightens us with information that we could not otherwise know. For example, one consistent behavior that occurs throughout the book of Daniel is, that each prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point in time, and the events within each prophecy occur in the order in which they are given. This chronological behavior may sound simple, but it has profound ramifcations. Consider the results of violating this behavior. If the events given within a particular prophecy do not occur in the order given, who has the authority to declare the order of events? Does anyone other than God have the authority to change the order that He created?
The chronological behavior found in Daniel’s prophecies is the basis for Rule One.. Be assured, I am not inventing a rule. I am expressing a consistent behavior that recurs without exception throughout the book of Daniel (as well as the book of Revelation).
When the fulfilled elements in Daniel and Revelation are alignedwith widely published historical records, the validity of Rule One proves true every time! The prophecies in Daniel began unfolding more than 2,600 years ago. Some of the prophecies in Revelation began unfolding 2,000 years ago. These lengthy periods of time contain a sufficient sample to validate the four rules that spring from Daniel’s architecture. The book of Daniel also provides a historical foundation for some of the prophecies in Revelation. Since prophecies in Revelation run parallel to prophecies in Daniel we can link them together and establish the timing of events mentioned in both books. So, the use of Daniel’s architecture, like the hieroglyphics on the Rosetta Stone, enables us to resolve many prophetic mysteries that would otherwise be impossible to resolve.

The importance of this rule cannot be overstated. Draw a time line on a big sheet of paper and place all of the events specified in Daniel and Revelation on this time line. If you attempt this, you will immediately confront the question of chronological order. Rule One is decep- tively simple. It is also incredibly powerful. It demolishes two thousand years of prophetic speculation and tradition. Think about this: If God has not declared the chronological order of events within each apocalyptic prophecy, there is no chronological order
in apocalyptic prophecy. If there is no order. On the other hand, if God has declared chronological order, apocalyptic prophecy becomes a science and there is prophetic certainty (“the more sure word of prophecy”) instead of endless chaos and cancelling views. Everyone is permitted to defne and create whatever prophetic order and interpretation they want. This ongoing process has produced a cloud of confusion and as a result, many Christians treat prophecy with contempt. Worse, there is no general agreement among Christians on the next prophetic event.

Looking backwards from our day, world history proves there is chronological order in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. This is good news because the final generation can know and understand prophecies that previous generations could not discover! Remember, God’s greatest gift to the honest in heart is greater truth. This gift will never end throughout eternity! During the Great Tribulation God will swing a powerful magnet of truth over a junk pile called Earth and the honest in heart will be attracted and captured by its power and the rest of mankind will feel nothing. This is how the sheep will be separated from the goats.

These insights and Mrs. White council, have reshaped how I view our Historical interpretation. As I have said, we need to take a new look a apocalyptic prophecy based on "progressive revelations." Very, Very, few Adventist are even willing to consider entering a conversation that entertains such thoughts. Church leaders especially. Christ faced the same hurtle as well as the reformers, and the Millerites.

Did early expositors understand this hermeneutic, did Mrs. White? No. Was that there fault or had God kept it sealed up in the Book of Daniel until, "the time of the end"? (Dan.12:4&9)

In consideration of the interpretation put forth in our commentary as quoted above. One should ask: Well, what is the specific hermeneutic, and how does it apply to this prophecy as opposed to others? Does fulfilled prophecy, prove to validate any such hermeneutic? If not, then is it not merely a private interpretation, void of a valid/provable hermeneutic, which are for the benefit of revealing the intended interpretation of prophecy canceling out personal bias? I believe they are.

If this makes sense, then we can easily conclude that since Rev. 4&5 certainly have chronological events such as: 1)The Father is shown
holding a scroll with seven seals, and a angle proclaims, " who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll." (5:1)
2)The appearance of a Lamb looking as it had been slain, (past tense, from John's day), and found worthy to take the scroll from the Father and open it's seals (vss.6-10) 3) After this point in time, the Lamb (Jesus) receives something He had not yet received since His incarnation, as man, Power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise. (vss. 11, 12)

Too, this prophecy confirms a flow of chronological events, other wise Jesus could not have received the book from the Father if He had not first been proven worthy, and so forth. This proves the court room scene is not, " A timeless, highly symbolic portrayal of the victory of Christ", as we corporately interpret it.

One other point I wish to make is to your interpretation Reddogs. Rev.4:1 -6:17 is but one prophecy, thus all of the events flow in chronological order. ( I suggest reading it with that in mind) Chapter and verse delineation, as you know was added centuries after the the original texts. Therefore, students of prophecy should not assume that each prophecy starts and ends within each chapter.
Events in chapter six follow the events of chapter 5, in chronological order. (vs.6:1) says: " I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals." [on the scroll He, Jesus, received from the Father] The prophecy clearly indicates the opening of the seven seals follow the court room event, not the reverse, as you have placed the court room event at the end of the Millennium.

Prophecy clearly reveals the dating of the court room event, and should you be interested in knowing the timing I will share that with you or any other individual in another post. Just inform me of your interest. But meantime I've given you and others a lot to digest in this post.

Blessing

The early Adventist pioneers were outstanding Bible students. William Miller came to the Adventist understanding of prophecy using nothing but the Bible and a Cruden's concordance. He spent years studying Daniel and Revelation. I believe it was 12 years as I read his memoirs not too long ago. I know I have not spent that much tine in intensive Bible only study and I dare say neither have you. Joseph Bates was another intense Bible student as well Joshua Himes and other ministers who became SDA ministers. I just finished reading his autobiography and he was an amazing man

 

[Tigger Boy]

Dan 7 shows us the heavenly courtroom and shows that it takes place at a time after the rise of the 11th horn of Dan 7, after the persecution of the saints and before the 2nd coming.

Bob, please walk me through Dan. 7, texts in support of your statment.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The early Adventist pioneers were outstanding Bible students. William Miller came to the Adventist understanding of prophecy using nothing but the Bible and a Cruden's concordance. He spent years studying Daniel and Revelation. I believe it was 12 years as I read his memoirs not too long ago. I know I have not spent that much tine in intensive Bible only study and I dare say neither have you. Joseph Bates was another intense Bible student as well Joshua Himes and other ministers who became SDA ministers. I just finished reading his autobiography and he was an amazing man

Gary, I find it interesting that your response proves my point of this thread. The importance of "Chronology" in understanding prophecy.
For anyone not familiar with Adventist history, one would understand you to say that Adventism preceded William Miller. Adventism rose up out of the ashes of the Millerite movemen after the disappointment. Reverse chronology as you state it. I'm under the understanding that Miller never became an Adventist, no did he accept the Sabbath. However, I believe he was God's insturement at the time to draw awareness to the pre-advent judgement in 1844.

Yes, I believe we had many fine bible scholars in the past, and we can stand on their shoulders today should we choose, and see farther ahead than what they could, and advance with the new light. Or we can choose to stand were they stood, and refuse to move forward with advancing light. The latter was the response of the religious leaders in Christ day. Each of us must make that choice. I have chosen to move with it.

I have had an interest in the study of Dan. and Rev. since the early eighties, do the math. I believe it is my spiritual gift. That interest led me into the Adventist church. Hope these insights help.

Blessings