Are the Jews still Gods people?

[DaveM]

In the OT God called the Jewish people his chosen people. Are they still his chosen people, he tells them in Matthew that he is going to take away the kingdom of God from them. Yet he cant be finished with them as we know he brought them back as a nation in 1948.

Matthew 21:43​

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.​

Deuteronomy 7:6​

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


of course, we have Peter in the NT telling us Christians
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In the OT God called the Jewish people his chosen people. Are they still his chosen people, he tells them in Matthew that he is going to take away the kingdom of God from them. Yet he cant be finished with them as we know he brought them back as a nation in 1948.

Matthew 21:43​

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.​

Deuteronomy 7:6​

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


of course, we have Peter in the NT telling us Christians
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

They were chosen to preserve and eventually reveal the true God who came in the flesh as the Messiah for the entire world, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Their work is finished by the fulfillment of all that had been trusted in their care. The prophetic words of God. They are still a chosen people along with Gentiles but now the mission has changed. Preach the Good News to all the world. Blessings.

 

[Jonaitis]

They are not.

The covenant foundation of their nation was resolved when Christ established the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13).

 

[Darren Court]

They were chosen to preserve and eventually reveal the true God who came in the flesh as the Messiah for the entire world, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Their work is finished by the fulfillment of all that had been trusted in their care. The prophetic words of God. They are still a chosen people along with Gentiles but now the mission has changed. Preach the Good News to all the world. Blessings.

"Their work is finished by the fulfillment of all that had been trusted in their care."
Well, I can't agree with that...

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

" Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
.
..and there are many other scriptures that support the fact that the Jewish role is not done.! Perhaps the most compelling is..."
"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
Who is Jesus speaking to here? The Gentiles? No! He is speaking to the Jews and He's saying that before He comes again, the Jews will have to call upon His name! Hallelujah! (Side note which is why Satan has ensured the Jews have been systematically persecuted around the world, often in the name of Jesus. ie. to ensure they don't call on His name!)

 

[Emun]

In the OT God called the Jewish people his chosen people. Are they still his chosen people, he tells them in Matthew that he is going to take away the kingdom of God from them. Yet he cant be finished with them as we know he brought them back as a nation in 1948.

Matthew 21:43​

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.​

Deuteronomy 7:6​

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


of course, we have Peter in the NT telling us Christians
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

No, they are not. Why? The answer is typology. Regarding the animal sacrifices, the letter to the Hebrews said God never wanted them (Hebrews 10:5). He did command them, but not because He wanted them, but to show the world that something greater was coming. The same is with the people of Israel. Israel was only a shadow, an announcement of something greater. This is the Church.

God does not want us to live in the shadow, in the past. God wants us to live in the reality

 

[Emun]

The church was announced at the very beginning. We see it at the creation of Eve. Augustine explained that Eve was a hint to the Church and Adam was a hint to Jesus. For when Adam slept, from one of his ribs his wife was created. When Jesus hung dead on the cross, and the soldier pierced Jesus in his side, water and blood came out. The two sacraments of the church. The water for baptism, the blood for sacrifice. The wife of Christ, as we know, is the Church.

 

[Darren Court]

No, they are not. Why? The answer is typology. Regarding the animal sacrifices, the letter to the Hebrews said God never wanted them (Hebrews 10:5). He did command them, but not because He wanted them, but to show the world that something greater was coming. The same is with the people of Israel. Israel was only a shadow, an announcement of something greater. This is the Church.

God does not want us to live in the shadow, in the past. God wants us to live in the reality

Astonishing answer because it is so steeped in personal logic and so lacking in biblical understanding!

"Regarding the animal sacrifices, the letter to the Hebrews said God never wanted them"
No, that's not what the bible says! There are literally dozens and dozens of God's instruction and demands for animal sacrifice which demonstrate God did want them!! So for example...Leviticus 12:6 “‘And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering,"

If God NEVER wanted animal sacrifice He sure made a huge mistake repeatedly telling the Jews to make them!

Heb 10:5 " Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;"
Whenever, you see the word "therefore" you must seriously consider what it is "there for" and the preceding verse tells us "But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." In other words, the sacrifices could never remove sin and could, therefore, never sort out the problem of sin! Christ is telling us here that God didn't desire animal sacrifices to take away sin, but a body (Christ's body) to so. (Animal sacrifice was God ordained in very careful details to direct and show the way toward the ultimate sacrifice.)
.
You cannot simply use this verse to reinterpret the fact that if God did not want these sacrifices, He wouldn't have instructed them!

The same is not true of Israel!
.​

The facts are ....​

1) God chose Israel and He does not explicitly say the reason is to show something greater is coming
.
2) There is time for the Gentiles (it will end) "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."​

.
3) There is a purpose for the Gentiles "I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
.
4) Ultimately, God's plan is for Israel to return! "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Who was Jesus speaking to here if not the Jews? In other words, Jesus will not return again UNTIL the Jews call upon Him!

 

[Guojing]

Astonishing answer because it is so steeped in personal logic and so lacking in biblical understanding!

"Regarding the animal sacrifices, the letter to the Hebrews said God never wanted them"
No, that's not what the bible says! There are literally dozens and dozens of God's instruction and demands for animal sacrifice which demonstrate God did want them!! So for example...Leviticus 12:6 “‘And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the entrance of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering,"

If God NEVER wanted animal sacrifice He sure made a huge mistake repeatedly telling the Jews to make them!

Heb 10:5 " Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;"
Whenever, you see the word "therefore" you must seriously consider what it is "there for" and the preceding verse tells us "But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." In other words, the sacrifices could never remove sin and could, therefore, never sort out the problem of sin! Christ is telling us here that God didn't desire animal sacrifices to take away sin, but a body (Christ's body) to so. (Animal sacrifice was God ordained in very careful details to direct and show the way toward the ultimate sacrifice.)
.
You cannot simply use this verse to reinterpret the fact that if God did not want these sacrifices, He wouldn't have instructed them!

The same is not true of Israel!​

.​

The facts are ....​

1) God chose Israel and He does not explicitly say the reason is to show something greater is coming​

.​

2) There is time for the Gentiles (it will end) "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."​

.
3) There is a purpose for the Gentiles "I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
.
4) Ultimately, God's plan is for Israel to return! "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Who was Jesus speaking to here if not the Jews? In other words, Jesus will not return again UNTIL the Jews call upon Him!

Israel has a future destiny with God.

Currently there is no "Israel" in God's eyes, they have fallen so that all of us gentiles can be brought near to God by being in the Body of Christ (Romans 11:11, Ephesians 2:11-13).

But, as you quoted from Romans 11, once the fulness of the gentiles come in thru the Body of Christ, i.e once God has decided that the Body of Christ have grown to the correct numerical size, God will resume his program with Israel, and bring about Daniel's 70th Week (Romans 11:25-28)

 

[parousia70]

I think the better question is:
Are the Jews still Jews?

 

[parousia70]

But, as you quoted from Romans 11, once the fulness of the gentiles come in thru the Body of Christ, i.e once God has decided that the Body of Christ have grown to the correct numerical size, God will resume his program with Israel, and bring about Daniel's 70th Week (Romans 11:25-28)

Fulness isn't a quantity, it's a quality.

 

[Soyeong]

In the OT God called the Jewish people his chosen people. Are they still his chosen people, he tells them in Matthew that he is going to take away the kingdom of God from them. Yet he cant be finished with them as we know he brought them back as a nation in 1948.

Matthew 21:43​

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.​

Deuteronomy 7:6​

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


of course, we have Peter in the NT telling us Christians
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).

 

[Emun]

Astonishing answer because it is so steeped in personal logic and so lacking in biblical understanding!

It is not my "personal logic" this is an orthodox teaching. The Church Fathers, the historical Catholic Church and historical Protestantism believe exactly in this. You should ask yourself why they all speak against you.

 

[parousia70]

The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37).

So why did it cease for so many centuries then?

 

[Lukaris]

Obviously all people belong to God and He tells us of a general standard of how we are to live ( Ezekiel 18:4-9). Still, the Lord Jesus Christ tells us that salvation is of the Jews ( John 4:22) and we should remember this in light of reading elsewhere like Romans 11:1-36.

While Jews are no better or worse than anyone, they are probably the most scapegoated people. Jesus Christ preached love of God & neighbor to be lived by everyone like in the Good Samaritan parable ( Luke 10:25-37).

 

[Guojing]

Fulness isn't a quantity, it's a quality.

That is how you interpret it, which I am fine.

You do accept that, once that is reached, God will resume his kingdom program with the nation of Israel?

 

[parousia70]

That is how you interpret it, which I am fine.

You do accept that, once that is reached, God will resume his kingdom program with the nation of Israel?

Since the quality of Gentile Fullness came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry, than no. Otherwise it would have happened.

 

[Guojing]

Since the quality of Gentile Fullness came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry, than no. Otherwise it would have happened.

Scripture for "Since the quality of Gentile Fullness came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry,"?

 

[parousia70]

Scripture for "Since the quality of Gentile Fullness came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry,"?

Sure. There’s Plenty.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") must be understood as the same "FULNESS" as used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Ephesians 3:19, and Colossians 1:19(Greek = "pleroma"). This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Romans 15:16; Ephesians 3:1-21). By reading the Ephesians 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Ephesians 3:19.

Again, The "fulness of the gentiles" came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry. We are not still waiting for Gentile Fulness to occur.

 

[Guojing]

Sure. There’s Plenty.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") must be understood as the same "FULNESS" as used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Ephesians 3:19, and Colossians 1:19(Greek = "pleroma"). This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Romans 15:16; Ephesians 3:1-21). By reading the Ephesians 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Ephesians 3:19.

Again, The "fulness of the gentiles" came in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry. We are not still waiting for Gentile Fulness to occur.

Ephesians 3:1-21, Paul was explaining to the Body of Christ that the mystery revelation of Christ is now revealed to all thru his insight.

At the end, he prays that all his gentile believers would understand the length breadth and depth of that wonderful mystery.

There is no phrase, "fulness of the gentiles" in that passage at all.

But somehow, you are interpreting that passage to mean that the fulness of the gentiles, in Romans 11:25, have already been reached?

Sounds like you are taking 2 separate passages and forcibly make them refer to the same thing. You have been taught that in your church or some other preacher?

 

[rturner76]

In the OT God called the Jewish people his chosen people. Are they still his chosen people, he tells them in Matthew that he is going to take away the kingdom of God from them. Yet he cant be finished with them as we know he brought them back as a nation in 1948.

Matthew 21:43​

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.​

Deuteronomy 7:6​

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.


of course, we have Peter in the NT telling us Christians
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

I think they are still chosen for the reason that through their strict rules about marrying and the law that was to be followed, we were gifted with the ultimate Jew Jesus Christ. So there is even an argument for some that we should be Judiazed before Christianized. Christianity started as a sect of Judaism but it was spread to the Pagans thankfully.