Discussion Apostolic Power - what is it? What does it look like?

[Pioneer3mm]

Wherever you have the commission of God, there you have the authority of God: wherever you have the authority of God , there you have the power of God:

Good point/quote.
---
Commission, authority & power..
- important/essential in apostolic ministry/mission.

 

[hislegacy]

From The Normal Christian Church Life
Watchman Nee states:
"Of the classes of gifted men bestowed by the Lord upon His Church for its upbuilding, the apostle were quite different from the other three (i.e.Evangelists, Prophets, Pastors and Teachers... refered to on the previous page).They were specifically commissioned of God to found churches through the preaching of the Gospel, to bring revelation from God to His people, to give decisions in matters pertaining to doctrine and government, and to edify the saints and distribute the gifts..." P19 Para 4
"...It is immaterial to his office what personal gift an apostle has, but is essential to his office that he be sent of God". P20 Para 1

"The Evidence of Apostleship
... In 1 Cor 9:1-2, Paul states that apostleship has its credentials. "Th seal of my apostleship are ye in the Lord," he writes, as if to say, If God had not sent me to Corinth, then you would not be saved today, and there would be no church in your city..." P22 Para 3

Watchman Nee indicates that the 'Apostolic Power' is the power of God.
"... Wherever you have the commission of God, there you have the authority of God: wherever you have the authority of God , there you have the power of God: and wherever you have the power of God, there you have spiritual fruits..."P22 Para 3

I cannot quote that whole chapter but he covers Apostleship very comprehensively. I do not normally mark passages in the books I buy... in this section every page had something underlined (in pencil so it could be erased).

What specific 'power' do Apostles have, that you and I as Born Again, Spirit filled believers do not?

I'll submit to you - the founding of churches - but that is not a 'power'.

Does anyone have a scriptural definition or example?

Yes. Apostles did great miracles - so did deacons - Acts 6:8 8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.

 

[Techo]

None. They are no different to any other Christian with the one exception... they have be set apart by the Holy Spirit to be an apostle. What gift or grace they may have had before being called into that role we also may have. The gift that is to be exercised by any one of us is that gift that is needed within the body at any specific time. The Holy Spirit is our guide in this.

 

[hislegacy]

None. They are no different to any other Christian with the one exception... they have be set apart by the Holy Spirit to be an apostle. What gift or grace they may have had before being called into that role we also may have. The gift that is to be exercised by any one of us is that gift that is needed within the body at any specific time. The Holy Spirit is our guide in this.

qft

 

[Techo]

Sigh... I was expecting that... so now I have to go into Bible Study mode again and remember scriptures that support my post... could be a little while though... could I quote Nee again?... I'm pretty sure that's the idea he was putting forward.

 

[Techo]

So... I cheated... I got back to Watchman Nee's writing again. Here's what he writes:

"An Apostle may be a prophet or a teacher. Should he exercise his gift of prophecy or teaching in the local church, he does so in the capacity of a prophet or a teacher, but when he exercises his gifts in different places he does so in the capacity of an apostle. The implication of apostleship is being sent of God to exercise gifts of ministry in different places. It is immaterial what personal gift an apostle has, but is essential to his office that he be sent". Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Church Life P20 Para 1

He supports this in the next paragraph by pointing out that, in Antioch, Saul was counted among the prophets and teachers (Acts 12:1-2)

"'For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits: to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:' (1Co 12:8-10) This passage provides us with a list of all the gifts which the Holy Spirit gave to men, but it includes no apostolic gift. 'And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues' (1Co 12:28). The first passage enumerates the gifts given to individuals, the second enumerates the gifts given to the Church. In the former there is no mention of any apostolic gift; in the later we find that "apostles" head the list of God's gifts to the Church. It is not that God has given His Church the gift of apostleship, but that He has given it to men whp are apostles; and He has not given the gifts of prophecy and teaching to His Church, but He has given it to some men as prophets and some as teachers."
Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Church Life P20 Para 4

It seems obvious to me that Apostleship must come first in any listings of the gifts give to the Church as it is the work of the Apostle to first establish a Church after which the other gifts given to the Church can find application. I would not, therefore, place an Apostle as a higher ranking in a Church order, as in a pyramid structure, but just as another ministry within the Church. Each has it's place and purpose and each has it's own importance in the appropriate context.

If I keep this up I may as well just copy all Watchman says on the matter.

 

[hislegacy]

Not interested in Watchman Nee. I was asking about posters individually.

Thanks no need to post more.

EDIT: FWIW - I have read virtually every book from Watchman Nee - learned and gleaned much from his writings.

 

[hislegacy]

Can we come to a consensus that "Apostolic Power" is a catch phrase and had no real definitive or scriptural meaning?

 

[jiminpa]

Can we come to a consensus that "Apostolic Power" is a catch phrase and had no real definitive or scriptural meaning?

I can agree with that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul said that he was not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ because it is the power of God unto salvation for those who believe it. It is the preaching of the Gospel that shows true Apostolic power. The power is in that it changes the hearts and lives of the worst, vile rebel against God, to a holy man or woman of God who shows the love of Christ to all who come into contact with them.

The signs and wonders did not convert anyone. The Pharisees saw all the miracles of Jesus but their hearts were not changed. They saw the raising of the lame man by Peter and John, yet they still did all they could to suppress the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. Why did they not want the name of Jesus preached? Because, as they said, "The whole world will go after Him." Signs and wonders only validate the Gospel. It is the preaching of the Gospel that gives faith to enable people to receive Christ and repent of their sinful lives.

To say that Apostolic power involves healing, deliverance, prophecy and speaking in tongues, shows a basic misunderstanding of what the Gospel is all about. Actually, most of the teaching about "Apostolic power" is just steam going out through the whistle in the form of speech making and motivational talk and vain promises. The fact is that in all these mega churches and conferences, in spite of the entertainment and big talk, no one gets really healed. None of the big name faith healing fellows can produce even one medically validated healing of anyone healed of cardiac issues or cancer, nor has any disabled person been made whole and has been able to get out of their wheelchair and walked. Most of the so called healing of folk in wheelchairs is fake, the wheelchairs being provided just before the start of the conferences to those who could already walk. These faith healers know they can't heal anyone, and this is why they use magic tricks like leg lengthening, iPhone to look up people's information to give false words of knowledge.

No. That is not where the real Apostolic power is. It is demonstrated when the Gospel of Christ is preached and people are shown how Jesus died on the Cross to take away their sin and that if they believe the Gospel they will be saved. Multitudes of hearts have been changed and the most hardened sinners have been saved and become fully functioning faithful church members who have gone on to bear fruit in the salvation of souls through their own ministries. There's where the real miracles are.

 

[Guojing]

Absolutely agree but every week across this nation people have hands laid on them and do receive the Holy Spirit at the hands of those who are not Apostles.

If it is an example of Apostolic Power, then it has passed to many

If you read the Acts 8 account, Simon was astonished by the signs and miracles performed by Phillip. But he didn't offer money to him to pass him that same power, obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

Then he encountered Peter and John, who could pass that same power to those who believe. It was then that he offered to pay them for that power.

You can look at it another way. At the present time, have you ever encountered anyone who can do the same signs and miracles, to the same extent as Simon saw Phillip/Peter/John was doing?

That fact that no one is offering these people anything to "pass on that power", shows the difference between what the original 12 had, and what anyone now claim to have.

 

[hislegacy]

If you read the Acts 8 account, Simon was astonished by the signs and miracles performed by Phillip. But he didn't offer money to him to pass him that same power, obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

That is where, IMHO, you have missed it theologically -

First - Paul was NOT one of the twelve and yet laid hands on numerous people for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Second, the gift (or manifestations) of the Spirit, including the power gifts, are mean for the body of Christ ( the church) and is still so today, even though the 12 are long gone.

Third, Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Why was Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ. That is the work of an Apostle (sent one).

Philip was one of the twelve Apostles just like Peter and John.

Matt 10:110 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;​

 

[Guojing]

That is where, IMHO, you have missed it theologically -

First - Paul was NOT one of the twelve and yet laid hands on numerous people for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Second, the gift (or manifestations) of the Spirit, including the power gifts, are mean for the body of Christ ( the church) and is still so today, even though the 12 are long gone.

Third, Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Why was Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ. That is the work of an Apostle (sent one).

Philip was one of the twelve Apostles just like Peter and John.

Matt 10:110 And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;​

There are so many Philips in the bible, why do you assume the one in Acts 8 and Matthew 10 refer to the same one?

If you recall Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

So the Phillips in Acts 8 could not have been one of the 12. He is most likely the Phillip of Acts 6:5.

My post was also not about Paul, so I have no idea why you brought him in, I am not denying God made him an apostle, so naturally, he would also have the same power as Peter and John. But Acts 8 was before Paul was even saved.

 

[hislegacy]

There are so many Philips in the bible, why do you assume the one in Acts 8 and Matthew 10 refer to the same one?

If you recall Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

So the Phillips in Acts 8 could not have been one of the 12. He is most likely the Phillip of Acts 6:5.

My post was also not about Paul, so I have no idea why you brought him in, I am not denying God made him an apostle, so naturally, he would also have the same power as Peter and John. But Acts 8 was before Paul was even saved.

The name is Philip - not Phillips.

Your assumption is incorrect.

 

[Guojing]

The name is Philip - not Phillips.

Your assumption is incorrect.

After that hair splitting, would you agree that, given what Acts 8:1 stated, the Phillip in Samaria could not have been one of the 12 apostles?

If you disagree, do explain why.

 

[hislegacy]

After that hair splitting, would you agree that, given what Acts 8:1 stated, the Phillip in Samaria could not have been one of the 12 apostles?

If you disagree, do explain why.

Completely disagree and will reply later.

He is Risen!

 

[hislegacy]

What specific 'power' do Apostles have, that you and I as Born Again, Spirit filled believers do not?

I'll submit to you - the founding of churches - but that is not a 'power'.

Does anyone have a scriptural definition or example?

That fact that no one is offering these people anything to "pass on that power", shows the difference between what the original 12 had, and what anyone now claim to have.

What EXACTLY is 'that power"?

Are you speaking of Miracles and Healing?

That is a result of God giving gifts unto men -

1 Cor 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

​

No mention of Apostles, but multiple mentions of God. The 12 had no greater gifts then what is experienced in ministries today.

As for the frequency of the Gifts being made manifest, the reader should remember that the book of Acts spans a time frame of 30 years. I am not taking away from the wonderful things they did, nor the power of God which the Apostles, Prophets even the Deacons flowed in.

There just plainly is no teaching in the whole of scripture that speaks of Apostolic power separate from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

What EXACTLY is 'that power"?

Are you speaking of Miracles and Healing?

That is a result of God giving gifts unto men -

1 Cor 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

​

No mention of Apostles, but multiple mentions of God. The 12 had no greater gifts then what is experienced in ministries today.

As for the frequency of the Gifts being made manifest, the reader should remember that the book of Acts spans a time frame of 30 years. I am not taking away from the wonderful things they did, nor the power of God which the Apostles, Prophets even the Deacons flowed in.

There just plainly is no teaching in the whole of scripture that speaks of Apostolic power separate from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Have you addressed that point about why you think Phillip was one of the 12 in Samaria at that time, despite Acts 8:1?

 

[Guojing]

The 12 had no greater gifts then what is experienced in ministries today.

Do you understand the point I was making with that statement?

That fact that no one is offering these people anything to "pass on that power", shows the difference between what the original 12 had, and what anyone now claim to have.

If what you are saying is true, then have you ever ask yourself why no one is even bothered to offer anyone with those gifts today, anything, to "pass those gifts", whatever they are?

Notice Peter and John did not reply to Simon's offer with "These are gifts of the Spirit, I cannot pass to you even if I wanted to, because it is the Holy Spirit that decides who gets those."

 

[jiminpa]

obviously Phillip could not pass on that same power to anyone else.

Not so obvious. In fact I would consider that a unique interpretation, and not supported to any degree by any scripture.