Any patristic sources on 1 Timothy 2:11-12 that address whether the context is the church?

Kilk1

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1 Timothy 2:11-12 has been variously understood. One view I recently heard is that it teaches women to be silent not only in church, as is the case in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, but also in secular matters. After making several contextual arguments for women not to teach with authority, this article concludes:

If we can see I Tim 2:11-12 forbids a woman from teaching a class of men when the topic is the Bible, then we ought to be able to see the non-spiritual parallel: I Tim 2:11-12 also forbids a woman from teaching a class including men when the topic is secular (like a college mathematics class).
Many decades ago the Biblical view presented in this message was accepted by most every Christian. The woman’s liberation movement squelched it. But the Bible hasn’t changed. I close with this point … If verses 9-10 (dressing modestly) applies at the university and in the workplace, why wouldn’t the very next two verses apply there also?
This has caused me to wonder how 1 Timothy 2 was understood historically. Has the context of 1 Timothy 2:11-12 historically been understood as referring to the church, or would it apply, as this article contends, in all settings, sacred or secular?

Note: My question does not pertain to how people in modern times have interpreted the passage; neither is it necessarily about what "silence" means. Rather, I am asking whether, historically, the context of 1 Timothy 2:11-12 was understood as being about the church in particular.
 

sandman

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I did this several years ago ....it may add a little light into what you are seeking..... It's long :(

We need to keep both Timothy and Corinthians within the context of which they were written. Culture was different but the principles still remain.


I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church (note: when I use the word church, I am speaking of the ekklesia “the called of God”, “the body of Christ” ….not a structure.) Therefore, when reading this book, we must keep in mind who it is addressing, and why. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ; that is just poor workmanship of rightly dividing the Word.
We must also keep in mind cultural times. Here in Timothy, as well as 1Co 14:34 & 35 the word is dealing with the wives of the prophets and there are cultural standards that come into play.


Timothy is dealing with the leadership in the church, and specifically these verses in question are dealing with wives of the men of God in the leadership positions responsible for teaching and moving Gods word. We must read and understand these verses in that light, and not wretch them out of context to degrade women as some groups have done.
The whole context dictates that the men (husbands) were men of God with ministries as seen in 1Ti 3:1&2 which is the more immediate context of these verses…..Ultimately it comes down to respect of the Word of God


The following is a break-down of verses 9-15
I Timothy_2:9-15


1Ti 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;


In like manner or “likewise
”. You have to go back to verse 8 to find out what likewise is referring to. Talking about husbands who were men of God praying everyplace “lifting up holy hands” is a Figure of speech meaning “To have done all that can be done” speaking of the men of God praying in the previous verses. It now shifts to the women in doing all they can do.

The word also is not in any critical Greek text.

That women (Gr) gunê = wives – henceforth, the word woman is translated wives

adorn themselves (Gr) kosmeo it is the word transliterated over into our English as cosmos” It means orderly universe. To polish, or to beautifully cut out to carve in all perfection. Orderly like the stars that are set in their coarse, and like the paths of the seas, no collision. Its like all of God’s creation; that’s this word “adorn.”

in modest apparel (Gr) kosmias the same root word as adorn.
Women are to adorn themselves adorningly, meaning well polished beautifully groomed, is the essence of what God is saying. It sets the woman with the man of God in all of its beauty and all of its greatness.


With shamefacedness (Gr) aidôs = an inner grace. Manifesting the inner beauty of Christ in you, in your walk, your talk, and your manner of dress. One who recoils at anything unseemly, immoral or impure.

Sobriety ( Gr) sôphrosunê is self-restraint, habitual inner self-governing it’s the renewed mind dignified walk. Being an example in your walk because that man of God is your man, and you by your actions show the rest of the women in the household of God how they are to act or walk.

notis conditional …….due to culture, the walk of a woman would vary.

broided hair(Gr) plegma hair-doo or gold, or pearls, or costly array
One example of this refers women who would have their hair put in the form of the temple, a horn or a tube that would go around the head made of gold studded with precious jewels. This would tie underneath the chin and over the top of the hair. At the back they would have braided cords of silk that would drop to the back of the knees, and at the bottom of those would be tassels of red silk, loaded with lead so the hair style would be tightened under the chin…..ouch!

1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

But
– Sets in contrast that which was preceding (broided hair, etc)

which becoumeth women – wives

professing(Gr) epaggellomai To announce ones self.


godliness = Wives showing themselves reverently godly, that is how you announce yourself. Wives are attractively dressed, sharp, cultured, but not to the end that you’re a hot or drawing attention to yourself through your costly array.

with good works – This Greek preposition indicates “withas all the way through, not just the manner of dress, but the actions in your life. Doing what has just been stated, that’s “the good works.”

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.


Let the woman = wife

learn = to be informed, to understand to learn by study and observation.

in silence (Gr) hesuchia means – inner awareness, a quietness, tranquility. It’s just the opposite of vociferous.
There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about “wives of the men of God”. With that inner awareness you will know when that time and palace is.

with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.
When the woman decided to marry the man, she made a decision that the man would be the head of her, like God would be the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man, just as the man is with God.


1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

but
is the word “and

I suffer (Gr) epitrepo means to direct, or instruct

not a woman = wives


to teach (Gr) didaske to debate. We get our word teacher from this Greek word. It’s used in the academic realm of a didactic coarse [a teaching coarse] But here is the beauty of this scripture. In our teaching methods there is no debate, but in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches, anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. (God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man of God.) You can obviously see where this would belittle the man, showing great disrespect to the man of God, and the Word of God

nor = and not (emphatic)

to usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.

the man = husband

but to be in silencesame word as in verse 11 (hesuchia) the inner awareness.


1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.



For Adam was first formed then Eve
– Adam was given authority and Eve was given to Adam as a companion. This doesn’t degrade the woman but rather just puts it in the order, which God formed, made, and created us.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

But the woman (wife) being deceived = taken in, literally means baited by false statements which the adversary laid on her in Genesis. God’s just saying ….things haven’t changed, the adversary is still trying to pull the same stunts. That is why that word hesuchia (that inner awareness) is so vitally important in a woman’s walk, so that the woman is not trying to usurp authority over the man.


transgression stepping aside from doing right. Even though Adam wasn’t deceived, it was because she was his companion, and when she was baited, he went down to her level. This will generally always be true with a man.



1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

Notwithstanding
= but

She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,

in = through

childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she (the wife) shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.
(Guys will not understand that, but women will)

If they - The husband and wife.

Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.

Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from God’s word.

And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. It’s a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in its fullest conceivable form, and beyond.

And holiness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both the roll of the Man and the Woman should be kept in the perspective of the Word. (marriage relationship, and leadership relationship)
As for Women teaching in the Church, I find nothing in the Word that specifically disallows that; again kept within the perspective and boundaries of written Word.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Again this is dealing with wives in the eastern culture, and the setting that took place. The setting is where men would sit on one side and women on the other of the room after the teaching. The men would discuss/debate what was taught. Remember that word didaske to debate
Interruptions were obviously taking place during that time from the wives to necessitate God having this written (now remember this is not a large church structure; keep in mind the times. The churches were the group settings (i.e.) primarily home fellowships as dictated in the book of Acts) All that God was saying was hold your opinion/discussion until you get home.

Also …the books of Corinthians is a correctional Epistle to show believers where they were off track, from not following the doctrine laid out in Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians.
Neither of these accounts In Timothy and Corinthians applies to all women, but as you can see it did apply to these specific settings and does apply to similar settings for obvious reasons.
Can woman teach the Word …absolutely! Can married woman teach the Word….. absolutely …→ within the confines of the written Word; which is “proper arrangement” between a husband and wife.
 
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I did this several years ago ....it may add a little light into what you are seeking..... It's long :(

We need to keep both Timothy and Corinthians within the context of which they were written. Culture was different but the principles still remain.


I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church (note: when I use the word church, I am speaking of the ekklesia “the called of God”, “the body of Christ” ….not a structure.) Therefore, when reading this book, we must keep in mind who it is addressing, and why. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ; that is just poor workmanship of rightly dividing the Word.
We must also keep in mind cultural times. Here in Timothy, as well as 1Co 14:34 & 35 the word is dealing with the wives of the prophets and there are cultural standards that come into play.


Timothy is dealing with the leadership in the church, and specifically these verses in question are dealing with wives of the men of God in the leadership positions responsible for teaching and moving Gods word. We must read and understand these verses in that light, and not wretch them out of context to degrade women as some groups have done.
The whole context dictates that the men (husbands) were men of God with ministries as seen in 1Ti 3:1&2 which is the more immediate context of these verses…..Ultimately it comes down to respect of the Word of God


The following is a break-down of verses 9-15
I Timothy_2:9-15


1Ti 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;


In like manner or “likewise
”. You have to go back to verse 8 to find out what likewise is referring to. Talking about husbands who were men of God praying everyplace “lifting up holy hands” is a Figure of speech meaning “To have done all that can be done” speaking of the men of God praying in the previous verses. It now shifts to the women in doing all they can do.

The word also is not in any critical Greek text.

That women (Gr) gunê = wives – henceforth, the word woman is translated wives

adorn themselves (Gr) kosmeo it is the word transliterated over into our English as cosmos” It means orderly universe. To polish, or to beautifully cut out to carve in all perfection. Orderly like the stars that are set in their coarse, and like the paths of the seas, no collision. Its like all of God’s creation; that’s this word “adorn.”

in modest apparel (Gr) kosmias the same root word as adorn.
Women are to adorn themselves adorningly, meaning well polished beautifully groomed, is the essence of what God is saying. It sets the woman with the man of God in all of its beauty and all of its greatness.


With shamefacedness (Gr) aidôs = an inner grace. Manifesting the inner beauty of Christ in you, in your walk, your talk, and your manner of dress. One who recoils at anything unseemly, immoral or impure.

Sobriety ( Gr) sôphrosunê is self-restraint, habitual inner self-governing it’s the renewed mind dignified walk. Being an example in your walk because that man of God is your man, and you by your actions show the rest of the women in the household of God how they are to act or walk.

notis conditional …….due to culture, the walk of a woman would vary.

broided hair(Gr) plegma hair-doo or gold, or pearls, or costly array
One example of this refers women who would have their hair put in the form of the temple, a horn or a tube that would go around the head made of gold studded with precious jewels. This would tie underneath the chin and over the top of the hair. At the back they would have braided cords of silk that would drop to the back of the knees, and at the bottom of those would be tassels of red silk, loaded with lead so the hair style would be tightened under the chin…..ouch!

1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

But
– Sets in contrast that which was preceding (broided hair, etc)

which becoumeth women – wives

professing(Gr) epaggellomai To announce ones self.


godliness = Wives showing themselves reverently godly, that is how you announce yourself. Wives are attractively dressed, sharp, cultured, but not to the end that you’re a hot or drawing attention to yourself through your costly array.

with good works – This Greek preposition indicates “withas all the way through, not just the manner of dress, but the actions in your life. Doing what has just been stated, that’s “the good works.”

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.


Let the woman = wife

learn = to be informed, to understand to learn by study and observation.

in silence (Gr) hesuchia means – inner awareness, a quietness, tranquility. It’s just the opposite of vociferous.
There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about “wives of the men of God”. With that inner awareness you will know when that time and palace is.

with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.
When the woman decided to marry the man, she made a decision that the man would be the head of her, like God would be the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man, just as the man is with God.


1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

but
is the word “and

I suffer (Gr) epitrepo means to direct, or instruct

not a woman = wives


to teach (Gr) didaske to debate. We get our word teacher from this Greek word. It’s used in the academic realm of a didactic coarse [a teaching coarse] But here is the beauty of this scripture. In our teaching methods there is no debate, but in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches, anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. (God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man of God.) You can obviously see where this would belittle the man, showing great disrespect to the man of God, and the Word of God

nor = and not (emphatic)

to usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.

the man = husband

but to be in silencesame word as in verse 11 (hesuchia) the inner awareness.


1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.



For Adam was first formed then Eve
– Adam was given authority and Eve was given to Adam as a companion. This doesn’t degrade the woman but rather just puts it in the order, which God formed, made, and created us.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

But the woman (wife) being deceived = taken in, literally means baited by false statements which the adversary laid on her in Genesis. God’s just saying ….things haven’t changed, the adversary is still trying to pull the same stunts. That is why that word hesuchia (that inner awareness) is so vitally important in a woman’s walk, so that the woman is not trying to usurp authority over the man.


transgression stepping aside from doing right. Even though Adam wasn’t deceived, it was because she was his companion, and when she was baited, he went down to her level. This will generally always be true with a man.



1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety

Notwithstanding
= but

She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,

in = through

childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she (the wife) shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.
(Guys will not understand that, but women will)

If they - The husband and wife.

Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.

Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from God’s word.

And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. It’s a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in its fullest conceivable form, and beyond.

And holiness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both the roll of the Man and the Woman should be kept in the perspective of the Word. (marriage relationship, and leadership relationship)
As for Women teaching in the Church, I find nothing in the Word that specifically disallows that; again kept within the perspective and boundaries of written Word.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Again this is dealing with wives in the eastern culture, and the setting that took place. The setting is where men would sit on one side and women on the other of the room after the teaching. The men would discuss/debate what was taught. Remember that word didaske to debate
Interruptions were obviously taking place during that time from the wives to necessitate God having this written (now remember this is not a large church structure; keep in mind the times. The churches were the group settings (i.e.) primarily home fellowships as dictated in the book of Acts) All that God was saying was hold your opinion/discussion until you get home.

Also …the books of Corinthians is a correctional Epistle to show believers where they were off track, from not following the doctrine laid out in Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians.
Neither of these accounts In Timothy and Corinthians applies to all women, but as you can see it did apply to these specific settings and does apply to similar settings for obvious reasons.
Can woman teach the Word …absolutely! Can married woman teach the Word….. absolutely …→ within the confines of the written Word; which is “proper arrangement” between a husband and wife.
Every occurrence of 1 Timothy 2:12 in this post one word is mistranslated. αὐθεντεῖν/authentein. Here is the definition from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons available. Note the primary meaning. "to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to." It is correctly translated "usurp authority" in the KJV. This word does not prevent a church from appointing a qualified woman to any position they choose.
αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod S 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 150​
.​
 
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