Ancestral Sin ~vs~ Original Sin

fhansen

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what do you mean by without direct knowledge of God?
Adam knew God, and presumably could've drawn even closer to Him rather than farther away, as he did. To know God is more than head-knowledge but to "see" Him, to know Him personally, to have union/fellowship with Him. We'r enot born with that knewledge here and yet we were made for it. This is to begin now, in this life, but be fully completed and consummated only in the next.
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12
 
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ArmyMatt

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True, but being that when they translated both Mogila's confession and Dositheus' in the Greek its ancestral sin and in Latin it's original sin. The canons of Carthage I think follow the same. So, canonically, they are the same thing.
again, it depends on how you define it. you are absolutely correct that it can be understood to be the same if understood properly, but it also could be erroneously understood. we gotta keep that in mind when talking to the Christian West.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Adam knew God, and presumably could've drawn even closer to Him rather than farther away, as he did. To know God is more than head-knowledge but to "see" Him, to know Him personally, to have union/fellowship with Him. We'r enot born with that knewledge here and yet we were made for it. This is to begin now, in this life, but be fully completed and consummated only in the next.
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12
right, but you implied you need rebirth to get that knowledge of God, unless I missed something.
 
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fhansen

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right, but you implied you need rebirth to get that knowledge of God, unless I missed something.
Rebirth involves coming to know God-the two go hand in hand. As we come to know Him we come to believe in, hope in, and love Him. That is rebirth.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Rebirth involves coming to know God-the two go hand in hand. As we come to know Him we come to believe in, hope in, and love Him. That is rebirth.
but what is rebirth in Catholicism? isn’t it baptism?
 
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fhansen

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but what is rebirth in Catholicism? isn’t it baptism?
Baptism marks, signifies, and accomplishes rebirth as long as we have faith, which prompts and is intrinsic to baptism. Baptism, in fact, is known as the "sacrament of faith". From there, having been washed and cleansed, died and risen, we're made new creations, raised to "newness of life".
 
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ArmyMatt

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Baptism marks, signifies, and accomplishes rebirth as long as we have faith, which prompts and is intrinsic to baptism. Baptism, in fact, is known as the "sacrament of faith". From there, having been washed and cleansed, died and risen, we're made new creations, raised to "newness of life".
can you know God directly with an unaccomplished rebirth?
 
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abacabb3

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again, it depends on how you define it. you are absolutely correct that it can be understood to be the same if understood properly, but it also could be erroneously understood. we gotta keep that in mind when talking to the Christian West.
Point is, the words refer to the same thing. People interpret the same thing differently, but it is wrongly confused that ancestral sin and original sin refer to two different things, which is not true.

It's be like me asking "New York City" versus "Manhattan."
 
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ArmyMatt

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Point is, the words refer to the same thing. People interpret the same thing differently, but it is wrongly confused that ancestral sin and original sin refer to two different things, which is not true.
again, it depends on what you mean. you can’t divorce a word from its meaning. there are plenty of apologists that would disagree with this.
It's be like me asking "New York City" versus "Manhattan."
not a good example. NYC is 4 other Burroughs. Manhattan is one island within NYC. those two are also not the same thing depending on who you ask (like my wife who is from Long Island).
 
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Lukaris

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The thing is with the sin of Adam & Eve, whether one calls it original or ancestral, the consequences for all was mortality. Cain & Abel did not share the guilt of original sin; Cain chose to be evil ( Genesis 4:1-15). Indeed, God considered the works of Abel to be righteous ( 1 John 3:11-12).
 
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abacabb3

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again, it depends on what you mean. you can’t divorce a word from its meaning. there are plenty of apologists that would disagree with this.

not a good example. NYC is 4 other Burroughs. Manhattan is one island within NYC. those two are also not the same thing depending on who you ask (like my wife who is from Long Island).
It is a good example. We have 2 conciliar documents that literally use the words interchangeably. As for the NYC example, think of it this way. We have people in Manhattan that call it NYC, but we also know that Manhattan is a very specific place. So, Ancestral Sin and Original Sin can be the same thing in one context, but in another Original Sin may carry with it "more burroughs" and a broader western definition we do not accept.
 
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ArmyMatt

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It is a good example. We have 2 conciliar documents that literally use the words interchangeably. As for the NYC example, think of it this way. We have people in Manhattan that call it NYC, but we also know that Manhattan is a very specific place. So, Ancestral Sin and Original Sin can be the same thing in one context, but in another Original Sin may carry with it "more burroughs" and a broader western definition we do not accept.
right, that was my point. it can be interpreted differently depending on who is speaking. if that was your point, I agree.
 
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zippy2006

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Thank you again @ArmyMatt :) Now, for my 3rd, and hopefully final question, if the difference is the guilt, what difference does the guilt make?

I don't really understand this either. I have encountered Orthodox who say that Ancestral Sin and Original Sin are the same thing and others who say that Original Sin is different because it implies the idea that we are guilty because of Adam's sin. But I have never seen anyone point to the place where Augustine or the West affirms such an idea. I'm pretty sure I have read Augustine say the exact opposite, although I would have to do some digging to find it again.

There is also a third position that I have encountered in people like John Meyendorff. This position pivots on the Latin translation of Romans 5:12 which Augustine made use of. Simplifying, this view says that, contrary to the Latin translation, the adversary is death rather than sin. But I have seen other Orthodox exegete the Greek directly contrary to Meyendorff's claims (which makes me wonder if Meyendorff was relying more on the patristics than formal exegesis).

In my experience Orthodox distinctives are not clear-cut, but they do exist in a more subtle manner. For example, even if the West does not hold to 'original guilt', there is a sense in which the West emphasizes inherited concupiscence more than the East does. And even if the exegesis of Romans 5:12 remains fraught, there is a sense in which the West focuses more on sin and the East focuses more on death. Granted, you will find exceptions on both sides. These are differences of theological culture or style, which theologians apparently see as demanding a genealogical explanation. Regardless, it seems that for Orthodox the difference of style or phronema really does take pride of place. This means that when a propositional-rationalistic West meets a mystical-traditio East you end up with an especially unstable and neuralgic encounter. In my (humble) opinion to understand this encounter from the perspective of the Eastern paradigm you must perceive that for the East the central premises relate to praxis, style, and phronema, with the propositional approach being derivative, mediated by these central concerns.


...I was going to end my post there, but then I realized that I have run head-on into your question and yet failed to offer an answer. It is an excellent question, but I am wary to offer an answer... What I will venture to say is that there is something more optimistic in the East than there is in the West. There is a greater focus on the resurrection, there is more hope for deification in this life, there is more continuity between this life and the next, there is somewhat less emphasis on the expiation of sin and guilt (especially in a legal sense), etc. This is probably easier to see when contrasting Orthodoxy with (Magisterial) Protestantism, since Protestantism is the Western position which is a more extreme opposite to Orthodoxy.
 
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ArmyMatt

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But I have never seen anyone point to the place where Augustine or the West affirms such an idea.
it’s somewhere when he speaks of the need for baptism. I do remember that. and it’s in earlier guys like Tertullian and Ambrosiaster.
 
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zippy2006

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it’s somewhere when he speaks of the need for baptism. I do remember that. and it’s in earlier guys like Tertullian and Ambrosiaster.
Yes, my guess is that it is inferential. For example, "Augustine says that unbaptized infants who die will go to Hell; only the guilty go to Hell; but infants have no personal guilt; therefore Augustine must hold to Original guilt, inherited from Adam." Now that's not a bad argument and it jibes with other things Augustine says, but it's also different from a direct admission on Augustine's part. (This is just conjecture - I haven't looked into it enough to know for sure.)
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, my guess is that it is inferential. For example, "Augustine says that unbaptized infants who die will go to Hell; only the guilty go to Hell; but infants have no personal guilt; therefore Augustine must hold to Original guilt, inherited from Adam." Now that's not a bad argument and it jibes with other things Augustine says, but it's also different from a direct admission on Augustine's part. (This is just conjecture - I haven't looked into it enough to know for sure.)
no, I mean I remember him actually writing it. not simply by inference.
 
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Lukaris

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It seems that the reformation sensed a need to “reform” Augustine’s theology of unbaptized infants. This is the stuff of western theology that I don’t what to make of, mean no disrespect to & glad it is not necessary within Orthodoxy:

 
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RileyG

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it depends on what you mean. if you mean original sin in that Adam and Eve were the first two humans to sin, then you are fine (which is why it’s also called the ancestral sin).

but the error in much of the Western view is that you are born guilty of the sin of Adam, not just subject to the effects of that first sin. so, the issue for us is more of original guilt.
Thanks for the clarification, Father. I am also interested in this.
 
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