A question with a difference...

chevyontheriver

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I would suggest a visit to the mayor's office and/or the police expressing the intent to cleanse/bless a crime scene when their work is done.
Bigger police departments in the USA often had a chaplain, who was in on what was happening and I suspect that was always part of the job at least for a Catholic chaplain. Priests used to even carry around a book of blessings.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Bigger police departments in the USA often had a chaplain, who was in on what was happening and I suspect that was always part of the job at least for a Catholic chaplain. Priests used to even carry around a book of blessings.

Nice...

They also used to visit parishioners...
 
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The Liturgist

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I would suggest a visit to the mayor's office and/or the police expressing the intent to cleanse/bless a crime scene when their work is done.

In the US, police departments and fire departments typically have volunteer chaplains. Their role varies. For example, fire department chaplains mainly assist the firefighters when responding to a medical call where the patient is found to be deceased. Police department chaplains do some of the same, and also help with dead body reports. They also provide counseling to the police and firefighters as required. They come from a variety of religions; one of my good friends is a chaplain with the local fire department, and she is ordained with the Presbyterian Church USA and is a very practical lady. Now some of these chaplains are definitely going to be blessing incident sites in llne with their religion, for example, I expect some Roman Catholic priests might have consecrated salt or water, but they are not going to make a show out of it, as chaplains are there for everyone, although efforts are made to match chaplains with people of the same faith, for example, if a Sikh person dies and there is a Sikh chaplain, that would be the guy to call. If a Catholic dies, you would call the padre, if a Presbyterian dies, you would call my friend, except in many cases its not possible for someone of the same faith to respond in a timely manner, so all chaplains are prepared to help everyone. They function on the same principles as chaplains in the military.

Additionally it is a civil right to have blessings where events have occurred.

Now frankly I don’t understand what the big deal is here, in that if a member of the Maori religion performed their blessing, that’s fine, provided no one is impeding the efforts of Christian clergy to do likewise. It can be convenient for all parties to coordinate such events, not for reasons of syncretism, but rather so that specific times can be arranged for such to occur. And this is common in response to major disasters or horrific crimes.

I remember once many years ago in the city I lived in for much of my life, a 13 year old boy was killed in an incident of gang violence, and there was a broad outpouring of grief from around the city; it was quite horrific as he was found hanged in his parents’ garage, by a relative, if I recall, and it led to a major local crackdown against the Mexican mafia groups known as the Nortenos and Surrenos, and related groups, which were tied into the cartels, as these gangs were heavily involved, and still are heavily involved, in drugs.

Likewise on 9/11, which was a national tragedy in the US, literally every church and synagogue most other religious organizations had prayer events in response to the incident. In many cases these were coordinated, so my church had a joint service of prayer with the PCUSA, and during the service, which lasted for at least a couple of hours, we had chalkboards on which we kept track of members of the local community who had been affected by the disaster, for example due to the loss of a loved one.

On a brighter note, in 1969 the landing of Apollo 11 resulted in many religious leaders ranging from Pope Paul VI to a noted Shinto priest praying or offering blessings for the religion. Additionally, Buzz Aldrin, who was a deacon in his Presbyterian church, was given by his pastor a kit by which he was able to take communion after the Eagle touched down on the Lunar surface. I absolutely love the fact that one of the first things to happen after mankind landed for the first time on another planet was the partaking of the Eucharist. This is also broadly acceptable as most denominations allow deacons to handle the Eucharist, for example, historically a major role for deacons was to distribute the reserved sacrament to the infirm, and frequently deacons assist in the ministration of the Eucharist, which I regard as more appropriate than lay Eucharistic ministers (if there is a shortage of deacons, which there often is, ordain more of them; in the US ROCOR and the OCA and the RCC have done an excellent job ordaining permanent deacons who have stable positions in the community, and ROCOR has an online education program for prospective deacons, and this is great, because liturgies tend to be better if one has a deacon present, even the Novus Ordo Missae). The main challenge is simply ensuring proper supervision of deacons, but I think if deacons are restricted to a liturgical ministry during scheduled church services initially and only after additional vetting qualified for home visits for the infirm, that would be ideal, and ideally these are people already known in the church.
 
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The Liturgist

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Nice...

They also used to visit parishioners...

In the US they still do, in most denominations. Is this not the case in Australia or New Zealand?

Also the Church of England, in addition to the Episcopal Church ,the Prebyterian Church USA, the Lutheran denominations, the Eastern Orthodox, and numerous other denominations publish special service books and prayer books for use in pastoral care, which include home visits.

Eastern-rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, and I believe many Oriental Orthodox ( @dzheremi can confirm on this point ) will also traditionally have their residence blessed by a priest each year; in the Eastern Orthodox church this is done around the Theophany (the Feast of the Baptism of Christ, also called Epiphany in the West), on January the 6th, when priests traditionally perform a liturgical service called The Great Blessing of Waters, and then use holy water collected at this service, often held by a lake or other suitable body of water, to bless the houses of their parishioners. The laity customarily give bread and salt to the priest when he arrives.
 
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The Liturgist

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So let me try and foster a reconciliation here between both sides of the debate. If an incident occurs on private property, obviously it is up to the owners of that property to determine what religious persons, if any, to admit, but generally freedom of speech and freedom of religion, certainly in the US where we have the great blessing that is the First Amendment, would allow religious services to be held on public property provided they did not breach the peace or interfere with public order.

If an incident occurs in public, however, Christian clergy have as much right as anyone else to make a response.

My view is that when a major disaster occurs, Christians should respond. Now if the violence consists of an attack on worshippers of a different religion or denomination not closely affiliated with the responding pastor, the proper course of action is to send condolences and offer prayers and also ask if anything else can be done to assist. In the case of known and controversial cults, such as the Fundamentalist Mormons led by convicted child molester Warren Jeffs, who is currently behind bars for assaulting underaged girls as young as 12 in the temple he constructed in Texas after Utah and Arizona began investigating his community in Colorado City, Az (part of which used to exist in Utah, but was confiscated by the state), which still exists, and I have been looking into possibly establishing a mission to help young men who are frequently exiled from the community to facilitate the continuation of polygamy, and young women who flee the community, obviously if someone attacked that community with violence the appropriate response would probably be to, if asked, condemn the violence while in no way condoning the activities of the cult. A great deal of discretion is desirable.

However, in cases of a general public disaster involving persons of different faiths, here Christians should respond with prayers and if warranted, services near the scene, such as a candlelight vigil, ideally coordinating with other religious leaders in the community and also civic organizations for a maximum show of solidarity and to assist the community with healing. A good example of this being done very well is the response of the community in Waukesha, Wisconsin, where Daryll Brooks, a few days after being released from jail on a $1,000 bond after attempting to run over his girlfriend with his mother’s SUV, drove through the annual Christmas parade at high speed, killing 6 people including one 8 year old boy and several elderly people who were members of a group called the Dancing Grannies, as well as severely injuring members of the High School Band, a youth dance team, and several other civic groups, as well as a large number of Catholic children who were carrying candles to represent the light of Christ. This attack, which was an evil crime and resulted in six consecutive life sentences + 68 years in prison, after the defendant was found by over five psychiatrists to be sane, and to have been sane at the time of the incident, albeit with narcissistic tendencies. During the jury trial the defendant represented himself and behaved in a fairly outrageous manner which retraumatized some of the victims and their relatives. The community however really did respond collectively and in a very proper manner to the horrible carnage, and the judge who handled the case is now running for the Wisconsin Supreme Court, and I hope she wins a seat on that court. It is worth noting that Wisconsin does not have capital punishment; had this occurred in many other states or under federal jurisdiction the death penalty would surely have been sought.

Thus, it ultimately boils down to using discretion to determine how the church can assert itself to help the community as much as possible. The church should not passively ignore incidents, but in some cases the presence of a priest or the scheduling of special services such as a candlelight vigil and prayer service is of more benefit than others. Also churches can and should be at the forefront of community fundraising initiatives in the aftermath of disasters. However, if the incident occurs on private property to a particular family or if the incident involves members of a different religion or unrelated denomination, or a cult, there is, as I described, a need for discretion in the response. The response of a church needs must be assertive, not aggressive or exhibitionistic, neither passive nor apathetic.
 
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Paidiske

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In the US they still do, in most denominations. Is this not the case in Australia or New Zealand?
Not chaplains, since (by definition) they are not engaged in parish ministry. But of course parish clergy visit.

It is true that what is sometimes called "cup of tea visiting," the visiting to chat, for no particular reason, is not such a feature of ministry life as it once was, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the many other demands now made on the time of parish clergy.

My understanding in Australia is that religious services or rituals in a public space would generally require local council permission. You don't just rock up and go for it. I would imagine that NZ is similar.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not chaplains, since (by definition) they are not engaged in parish ministry. But of course parish clergy visit.

It is true that what is sometimes called "cup of tea visiting," the visiting to chat, for no particular reason, is not such a feature of ministry life as it once was, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the many other demands now made on the time of parish clergy.

My understanding in Australia is that religious services or rituals in a public space would generally require local council permission. You don't just rock up and go for it. I would imagine that NZ is similar.

In the US there are some reasonable limitations on first amendment activities, which is why having a protest march in a residential neighborhood at 3 AM would generally be regarded as a breach of the peace. Likewise people can be arrested for disorderly conduct for shouting, particularly profanities, in a public place. Thus while theoretically a church can do a lot, and also the ability of local governments to restrict our activities has been limited by the recent Supreme Court ruling post-covid.

In general, however, my approach would always be to call the city to coordinate, however, that being said, I would call my lawyer if the city appeared to be attempting to obstruct in any way, to get his opinion on the legality of their actions, but I would be shocked if this happened in the present climate. At present, we feel tolerated and in many cases even supported by the local government, in particular by health and human services, police and fire departments, due to the efforts churches make in serving the homeless community and providing chaplaincy services.

Thus, I have, and the ministers who have largely taken over for me due to my illness have, excellent contacts in the community that we can reach out to, and doing so is good citizenship and ensures the coordination of these events. Simply because we have a legal right to do something does not mean that it is proper or beneficial to the Christian faith to exercise that right in a manner that would cause any kind of general disruption. We do have an obligation to love our neighbor as ourselves, and only if our ability to be the salt and light in the world is threatened would there be cause to push back in coordination with other churches. And if the rest of the Christian community was not on the same page, it would probably be indicative that we should not act. In particular, if other liturgical traditional churches with similar values disagreed. Each autocephalous church or denomination has a responsibility to not act in such a way that would potentially cause harm to the rest of the Christian community, which is why I for example really wish the RCC and certain other denominations had not sought to cover up incidents of sexual abuse, as that was stupid, illegal and harmed the entire community, even denominations with no history of pederasty among the clergy. However the silver lining to that cloud has been various initiatives such as the Safeguarding program in the Church of England, which I see as a really good example for how such programs should be run.
 
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dzheremi

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Eastern-rite Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, and I believe many Oriental Orthodox ( @dzheremi can confirm on this point ) will also traditionally have their residence blessed by a priest each year; in the Eastern Orthodox church this is done around the Theophany (the Feast of the Baptism of Christ, also called Epiphany in the West), on January the 6th, when priests traditionally perform a liturgical service called The Great Blessing of Waters, and then use holy water collected at this service, often held by a lake or other suitable body of water, to bless the houses of their parishioners. The laity customarily give bread and salt to the priest when he arrives.

I'm honestly not sure about the frequency of house blessings, as I've never been to one or had one done, but we do have a comparable service to the Eastern Orthodox blessing of the waters, called in Arabic the "Laqan" service, which I think occurs more frequently in our Church (we have, e.g., the Laqan for Epiphany, the Laqan for the Feast of the Apostles, etc. -- Laqan is just the Arabic approximation of the Coptic word for "water basin", and so is used for any service where water is blessed). I don't know exactly how it compares to the EO service (since I've never been to one of those), but here is a little pdf that gives the order of the service and all the hymns and prayers for the Laqan of Epiphany, if you or anyone else would be interested in looking at it: https://stnoufer.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/lakan-of-epiphany.pdf
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm honestly not sure about the frequency of house blessings, as I've never been to one or had one done, but we do have a comparable service to the Eastern Orthodox blessing of the waters, called in Arabic the "Laqan" service, which I think occurs more frequently in our Church (we have, e.g., the Laqan for Epiphany, the Laqan for the Feast of the Apostles, etc. -- Laqan is just the Arabic approximation of the Coptic word for "water basin", and so is used for any service where water is blessed). I don't know exactly how it compares to the EO service (since I've never been to one of those), but here is a little pdf that gives the order of the service and all the hymns and prayers for the Laqan of Epiphany, if you or anyone else would be interested in looking at it: https://stnoufer.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/lakan-of-epiphany.pdf

The Great Blessing of Waters can happen at other times than Theophany, and there is also a Lesser Blessing of Waters which at the Greek Orthodox St. Anthony’s Monastery in Arizona, not to be confused with its Coptic counterparts in California or Egypt, this service is held a few times a week during the midnight divine liturgy in the Catholikon to provide blessed water for the pilgrims. However, I don’t believe it happens as frequently as the Laqan.

By the way, did you know that the Coptic and Byzantine services for consecrating Holy Oil are nearly identical? The only difference is that with regards to the scheduled service held at the end of Lent, the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Rite Catholics sometimes celebrate it on days other than the Friday before Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday (the Antiochians, GoArch and other churches on the Revised Julian Calendar frequently serve it on Holy Wednesday), and also, more noticeably, in the Byzantine Rite the service is preceded by a Canon, which is a beautiful canon but it does lengthen the service considerably, so this is a rare case where the Coptic Orthodox service is shorter. For reasons that I don’t understand, the Syriac Orthodox service for Holy Unction is much shorter and does not follow the Coptic and Byzantine structure of seven prayers with seven Gospel lessons and other scripture lessons and seven lightings of oil lamps or wicks into a bowl of consecrated oil. This is a bit unusual because typically the West Syriac liturgy is closer to Byzantine practice than the Coptic, with some exceptions, but all three are very similar. If I recall, the Armenian and Ethiopian services are closer to the West Syriac service.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Nice...

They also used to visit parishioners...
Some still do. When we moved in 2020 we asked a priest to come and bless our house. And he did. It began a friendship.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Now frankly I don’t understand what the big deal is here, in that if a member of the Maori religion performed their blessing, that’s fine, provided no one is impeding the efforts of Christian clergy to do likewise. It can be convenient for all parties to coordinate such events, not for reasons of syncretism, but rather so that specific times can be arranged for such to occur. And this is common in response to major disasters or horrific crimes.

Of course - however what I am highlighting is the absence of Christian clergy - the vacuum of Church Leaderhip visible in public life speaks loudly the wrong message.
 
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Paidiske

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Given that about 37% of people in New Zealand are Christian, the majority may well not find Christianity relevant. I'm not sure that public displays are going to shift that.
 
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returntosender

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The point is that are we happy to stand back and have homage made to a mythological 'god' and accept that their spirituality is more relevant than a waining 'colonial' Faith ?
So carry that on in your own country. I don't like judgment from those looking in.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Given that about 37% of people in New Zealand are Christian, the majority may well not find Christianity relevant. I'm not sure that public displays are going to shift that.

I don't support public displays, but I do support Church leaders doing their job from a biblical standpoint.
 
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The Liturgist

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Of course - however what I am highlighting is the absence of Christian clergy - the vacuum of Church Leaderhip visible in public life speaks loudly the wrong message.

Well that’s obviously a problem, although correct me if I am wrong, I get the sense that, in line with other Polynesian populations, the Maori are converting to Christianity, which is the trend across the Pacific everywhere except Japan, where Christianity is growing at a glacial pace compared to Korea, Taiwan or the PRC.

The solution however is to get Christian clergy down there who are willing to have processions with the Cross and holy icons and relics uanashamedly, but in a dignified and reverent manner, with traditional hymns rather than the obnoxious “Christian rock” music. I am convinced that the adoption of “contemporary worship” while it may briefly have bolstered membership in some churches with the Jesus People movement in the 1970s, and again in the late 1990s and early 2000s, has now become a major contributor to the decline of church membership and the image of Christianity. We can see strong indications that younger Christians prefer more solemn and liturgical worship. Also, such worship, owing to its cultural value, is less likely to be offensive, in that it becomes edifying. In 2003 I witnessed a Sikh parade in New York City that was exemplary of how to do this sort of thing, because the parade included public marching bands from high schools and various cities in the region alongside the floats and processions of different Sikh groups, such as the association of Sikh police.

If we make Christian public events welcoming, with traditional music, beautiful vestments and a beautiful display, and many families from the church present, with Christians of all ages, and encourage community participation, for example by distributing candles, or holy water, or icons, to people who want them, and at the same time, without being triumphalist, holier than thou, proud, or obnoxious. The stance of Christians in the public sphere must be one of humility, reverence, love, meekness, hospitality, and moral decency, offering a respite from the grotesque displays of heterosexual and homosexual promiscuity and the perverse movement of modern society to regard pride as a virtue rather than a dangerous sin. The way to do this is through liturgical beauty, superabundant love and hospitality, and humility that does not call attention to itself; thus the elaborate humiliations St. Francis of Assisi is known for subjecting himself to would not be desirable as these might seem holier-than-thou (indeed, the Orthodox are extremely critical of some aspects of St. Francis of Assisi; @Carl Emerson , you might find interesting an article comparing him with St. Seraphim of Sarov). Personally I like St. Francis, but I prefer the more subdued approach of the founders of the other Mendicant orders such as St. Dominic Guzman (whose order, like that of St. Francis, was never created with religious violence in mind; rather, Dominicans and Franciscans were later tasked with the inquisition, but due to very good PR from the Franciscans, many people are unaware of their involvement in the Inquisition, but as usual I digress).
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't support public displays, but I do support Church leaders doing their job from a biblical standpoint.


I myself think that processions and parades on important church holidays, celebrating the ecclesiastical New Year (which for non-Western Christians is usually in September), the Exaltation of the Cross, Michaelmas, Reformation Sunday or the interesting Syriac Orthodox parallel celebrating the Consecration of the Church, which represents the start of their liturgical year), the rogations in Advent and other months where they occur, Christmas, St. Stephen, the Holy Innocents, the Circumcision, Theophany, Candlemass, the Annunciation, Palm Sunday, the Resurrection, the Ascension, Pentecost, All Saints in the East, and Trinity Sunday, depending on rite, the Apostles, the Transfiguration, the Dormition of the Theotokos and other events such as the patron saints of parish churches are very important. On the other hand I am actively opposed to celebrations of Mardis Gras; even Pancake Week in the Slavonic countries seems to have the effect of making Lent more negative than desirable; I really like how in Greece, the first day of Lent, Clean Monday, is a joyous public holiday with a focus on picnics and kite-flying.
 
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Paidiske

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I don't support public displays,
Seems to me your OP is asking why we aren't doing them.
but I do support Church leaders doing their job from a biblical standpoint.
I'm just not sure that what you're looking for, is actually our job.

The public processions and so forth I've been part of, I have not experienced as a particularly positive public witness. Quite to the contrary; they seemed to me to mark Christians as weird and foreign to the culture we're trying to reach.
 
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