A question on Abortion

Feb 2, 2016
9,854
6,619
40
Chattanooga, TN USA
Visit site
✟248,405.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I find it interesting when people propose this scenario. Even the most fundamentally conservative Christians among us over the years have cited this as one of the only reasons to allow abortion. I disagree.

But if you're a female faced with this question and are the one pregnant etc. What would you do?
Would your maternal instincts get in at this point and want what was best for your baby despite the loss you might incur? Or would your heart be so calloused and hardened that you would still abort and kill your own child?

For the latter, even animals have a better judgment that some people do regarding this.And it's sad and pathetic.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: NerdGirl
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,781
7,445
Dallas
✟901,580.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Reality check: Is sex crime genetic?

Here's an article that references some research, quotes include:

A splashy headline appeared on the websites of many U.K. newspapers this morning, claiming that men whose brothers or fathers have been convicted of a sex offense are “five times more likely to commit sex crimes than the average male” and that this increased risk of committing rape or molesting a child “may run in a family’s male genes.” The study, published online today in the International Journal of Epidemiology, analyzed data from 21,566 male sex offenders convicted in Sweden between 1973 and 2009 and concluded that genetics may account for roughly 40% of the likelihood of committing a sex crime. (Women, who commit less than 1% of Sweden’s sexual offenses, were omitted from the analysis.) The scientists have suggested that the new research could be used to help identify potential offenders and target high-risk families for early intervention efforts.

But independent experts—and even the researchers who led the work, to a certain degree—warn that the study has some serious limitations. Here are a few reasons to take its conclusions, and the headlines, with a generous dash of salt.

Alternate explanations: Most studies point to early life experiences, such as childhood abuse, as the most important risk factor for becoming a perpetrator of abuse in adulthood. The new study, however, did not include any detail about the convicted sex criminals’ early life exposure to abuse. Instead, by comparing fathers with sons, and full brothers and half-brothers reared together or apart, the scientists attempted to tease out the relative contributions of shared environment and shared genes to the risk of sexual offending. Based on their analyses, the researchers concluded that shared environment accounted for just 2% of the risk of sexual offense, while genetics accounted for roughly 40%. Although there is likely some genetic contribution to sexual offending—perhaps related to impulsivity or sex drive—the group “may be overestimating the role of genes” because their assumptions were inaccurate, says Fred Berlin, a psychiatrist and sexologist at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland.

----


Even if an overestimate, even if genes accounted for half of the estimation at a 20% increased likelyhood as a product of genes, it could be of concern. Even if just 1 percent, 1/40th of that estimated in the research article, were accurately that's 1% too many future rapes.


And not only that, but being a child of a single parent, without a father, knowing that your father was a rapist and that you were born out of wedlock, too could have additional negative affects on psychology of the child.

The following may be graphic:

My cousin raped a woman. He, an african american, was high on cocaine, and he took a white woman by knife point, as a hostage, in a college dormatory.

Sometimes I imagine the terror the woman experienced, and I wonder how she would feel, carrying my cousins progeny in her womb, and how her husband might feel about the same. My cousin too, was fatherless and born out of wedlock. As if something genetic may have been at play.

True story, I'm not making this up. It is what has partially inspired me to inquire about this.

What they’re not taking into consideration is the environment and exposure these individuals were exposed to as being the determining factor. To say it’s hereditary is completely ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟142,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
"If you do believe that, why do you think it's ok to discriminate against human beings and declare some more morally valuable than other based upon emotional capacity?"

And I think that, if you have one family member in an endless coma, who experiences no sentience, and you have another family member who is awake and sentient, if you had to make a choice of which were to live if one had to die, I feel like we would all have to choose the sentient one as the one of more value.

It sounds terrible I know, but I think it's what we would all do.

One family member, the awake one, can experience emotions and may say, "please save me". The other, would have no awareness and would experience no pain. The moral decision presumably would then be to save the sentient one.
You're starting to really derail. Let me try to bring this back:

1. All human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

2. A new, unique human being comes into existence at fertilization.

What I'm saying is that based upon these 2 premises, that at the very least we should all agree that the 98.5% of abortions, which are performed for non-medical, convenience reasons are immoral.

It doesn't matter hold far developed the unborn child is, it's immoral at any stage of development, because our moral worth and value stem from the character of God, not our developmental level.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What they’re not taking into consideration is the environment and exposure these individuals were exposed to as being the determining factor. To say it’s hereditary is completely ridiculous.

While the article suggests that the research referenced 40% being accounted for by genetics, even if it were just 1%, that's 1% too many rapes to be ignored. To say that the mindset of rapists is purely environment, I think is just as ludicrous as saying that it is completely genetic.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You're starting to really derail. Let me try to bring this back:

1. All human beings are created in the Image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.

2. A new, unique human being comes into existence at fertilization.

What I'm saying is that based upon these 2 premises, that at the very least we should all agree that the 98.5% of abortions, which are performed for non-medical, convenience reasons are immoral.

It doesn't matter hold far developed the unborn child is, it's immoral at any stage of development, because our moral worth and value stem from the character of God, not our developmental level.

I don't think either 1 or 2 can be substantially justified.

For number 1, I agree that human life holds value. But I don't agree that a non sentient embryo holds as much value as a sentient being, be it human or any other animal of the animal kingdom. "Created in the image of God" is kind of an arbitrary sound-bite. It sounds good on paper, but what does it actually mean? Is it created spiritually Is it created physically? Does God have two arms and two legs that we have because we are in his image? Is it something intellectual? Because we can solve problems does that make us reflective of God's image? what does this really mean and why does it separate us from any other living thing of the animal kingdom?

If I can eat a steak, I think that for the sake of saving a woman, an abortion may be the morally better choice if the embryo is non sentient and the woman's life is at stake. If I can comfortably kill and consume a sentient being (like a cow) without a second thought, I should be able to abort a non-sentient being If such an act were necessary to save the life of a sentient being (a mother).

For number 2, I think that saying that a human being comes into existence, the moment a sperm touches an egg, is arbitrary. It's easy to say that, much like it is easy to say that Barney is a purple dinosaur, But when it comes to actually defining exactly what purple is versus a blue or a red color is, degradation between non-life to life I think I cannot be defined so easily. Or non sentience to sentience.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Jonathan1303
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
To follow up on that last point, It's easy for people to say that human life begins when the sperm meets the egg, because it's simple and easy to understand and it's easy to put your finger on. But I think this is more of an arbitrary thing that we just do for simplicity. When does someone say that you are of an old age? We could easily say 70 is old because it's simple and easy to do, But when it comes to looking at the physical specifics, what is old and not old or what is human and not human really is more arbitrary.
 
Upvote 0

NerdGirl

The untamed daughter
Apr 14, 2020
2,651
3,104
USA
✟65,654.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I find it interesting when people propose this scenario. Even the most fundamentally conservative Christians among us over the years have cited this as one of the only reasons to allow abortion. I disagree.

But if you're a female faced with this question and are the one pregnant etc. What would you do?
Would your maternal instincts get in at this point and want what was best for your baby despite the loss you might incur? Or would your heart be so calloused and hardened that you would still abort and kill your own child?

For the latter, even animals have a better judgment that some people do regarding this.And it's sad and pathetic.
Powerfully and correctly said.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟142,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
If I can eat a steak, I think that for the sake of saving a woman, an abortion may be the morally better choice if the embryo is non sentient and the woman's life is at stake.
Again, this is derailing a bit from what I'm specifically addressing, which is the 98.5% of abortions.

For number 1, I agree that human life holds value. But I don't agree that a non sentient embryo holds as much value as a sentient being, be it human or any other animal of the animal kingdom. "Created in the image of God" is kind of an arbitrary sound-bite. It sounds good on paper, but what does it actually mean? Is it created spiritually Is it created physically? Does God have two arms and two legs that we have because we are in his image? Is it something intellectual? Because we can solve problems does that make us reflective of God's image? what does this really mean and why does it separate us from any other living thing of the animal kingdom?
It's always mildly humorous to hear people pontificate on a subject they clearly haven't actually studied and don't actually have a clue about. You would be better to just admit that you haven't studied the term and aren't entirely sure what it means. I'll help you a bit.

Human beings are created as both physical and spiritual beings. It's how God made us, and it's how we will ultimately exist when Christ returns and redeems and restores creation. Our final resting place will actually be here, on earth, as physical and spiritual beings.

Here's a great article by John Piper on what it means to be made in the Image of God: The Image of God

I will say that the most basic part of being created in the Image of God is that all human beings are inherently morally valuable. Our moral worth and value stem not from the immutable, perfect character of God, and is not based upon anything about ourselves.

For number 2, I think that saying that a human being comes into existence, the moment a sperm touches an egg, is arbitrary. It's easy to say that, much like it is easy to say that Barney is a purple dinosaur, But when it comes to actually defining exactly what purple is versus a blue or a red color, degradation between non-life two life I think I cannot be defined so easily. Or non sentience to sentience.
I think this may be a case where you are simply ignorant on the subject, and that's ok. However, science has advanced enough to where we now literally can see when a new human being comes into existence, it's virtually settled science.

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

“It should always be remembered that many organs are still not completely developed by full-term and birth should be regarded only as an incident in the whole developmental process.” F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1
 
Upvote 0

thelord's_pearl

Well-Known Member
Dec 5, 2018
423
357
ON
✟32,481.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'd like to respond to this. it really isn't all that simple those who are 100% against abortion. Those who would ever use the scripture of God saying he has a time and a place for us or that it is God's will if a person is raped, no, it is not God's will, it is the devil/sin/Satan's will so the child was not God's will and in this circumstance could abortion in the early stage when it will not feel pain be ok.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Again, this is derailing a bit from what I'm specifically addressing, which is the 98.5% of abortions.

It's always mildly humorous to hear people pontificate on a subject they clearly haven't actually studied and don't actually have a clue about. You would be better to just admit that you haven't studied the term and aren't entirely sure what it means. I'll help you a bit.

Human beings are created as both physical and spiritual beings. It's how God made us, and it's how we will ultimately exist when Christ returns and redeems and restores creation. Our final resting place will actually be here, on earth, as physical and spiritual beings.

Here's a great article by John Piper on what it means to be made in the Image of God: The Image of God

I will say that the most basic part of being created in the Image of God is that all human beings are inherently morally valuable. Our moral worth and value stem not from the immutable, perfect character of God, and is not based upon anything about ourselves.

I think this may be a case where you are simply ignorant on the subject, and that's ok. However, science has advanced enough to where we now literally can see when a new human being comes into existence, it's virtually settled science.

“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploid gametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases during sperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)

“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.” Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

“It should always be remembered that many organs are still not completely developed by full-term and birth should be regarded only as an incident in the whole developmental process.” F Beck Human Embryology, Blackwell Scientific Publications, 1985 page vi

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

“Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal and postnatal periods, it is important to realize that birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology fifth edition, Moore and Persaud, 1993, Saunders Company, page 1

The latter part of the post is simply an arbitrary statement. It's true that when the sperm and the egg intermingle their genetics they become genetically independent from both parents, But that doesn't make those cells now the image of God. It's not like something happens that makes those genes more than what they originally were.

"I will say that the most basic part of being created in the Image of God is that all human beings are inherently morally valuable. Our moral worth and value stem not from the immutable, perfect character of God, and is not based upon anything about ourselves. "

And what you're saying here is basically that a human life is worth more than any other form of life simply because it's what scripture says. There isn't necessarily anything scientific about this. It simply is what we claim it to be without any further explanation.

We were simply created more valuable and that's that. There's nothing physical or mental or intellectual that we can actually observe to distinguish ourselves. It's simply a faith-based statement. It simply is because scripture says it is and that's that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As an alternative to a faith-based conclusion, what I offer is the idea of using observation of sentience as a determination of value of life.

Destroying a plant is less of a crime than destroying a human because a human has a greater level of sentience and can experience pain and suffering, where as a plant cannot.

the value of life being determined by an observation related to how something experiences existence. As opposed to life and its value being determined simply because scripture says so and that's that (no corroboration with physical existence needed).
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And when we say the word "human", A medical doctor can call an embryo human because it's simple and easy to do. But this is just a word assigned to something arbitrarily to make it easy for us to talk about. It isn't actually anything significant to the discussion. When the egg touches the sperm it doesn't create something that just automatically is more valuable than it was 2 seconds prior.

Just like we have birthdays I can say that I'm 65 years old, And saying that I'm 65 makes it simple for us to talk about, It makes it easy for us to gauge general and broad concepts, But when I was 64 and 364 days old, in a practical sense there wasn't really much different about me then and the day later on my birthday.

No more is there much different about an embryo 2 seconds after the egg meets the sperm. Or even when the genetics of the sperm and egg meet there's nothing significantly different when they meet then they were one second prior to meeting.

So saying that human life begins when these genes meet really is just an arbitrary way of simplifying the idea of when human life begins, But in a physically real sense it's not really meaningful. The genes themselves of course pre-existed their mixing. What makes the human human actually existed before conception even occurred.

So what we have is an arbitrary assignment of the word "human" combined with a faith-based interpretation based on scripture. We can call an embryo human, but it isnt really human (it's not necessarily a person). It's a human embryo that eventually will become human or will become a person.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well I guess that doesn't really help my case I'll let that one go. (Edited)

Well I guess it kind of did. We assign a title of human to an embryo because it's easy to do. Just like we assign the word car to a metal object with 4 wheels.

But when a car truly becomes a car will always be arbitrary because it's just a title we assigned to something. Before the vehicles fourth wheel gets put on, whether we call the vehicle the car or not is purely something we arbitrarily decide just for simplicity of discussion. And we do the same thing with fertilization. We call the egg and sperm human because it's simple to do, But in a physically real sense it's really not much different than it was the second prior to that moment.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tropical Wilds

Little Lebowski Urban Achiever
Oct 2, 2009
4,880
3,230
New England
✟199,284.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So I was just wondering what kinds of responses pro life people might give for the following:

Lets say you're a man, and your wife is raped, and she has a high probability of dying if she carries on through the pregnancy and gives birth.

If an abortion could be conducted in the first few weeks of pregnancy while the baby is still in an embryo stage, where it would not experience pain, would an abortion then be potentially acceptable?

And sometimes I wonder, what if the baby grows up, then spreads genes of that rapist that perhaps promotes rape in future progeny. What are pro life people's thoughts on these two topics?

I’m pro-choice and I rarely find these hypotheticals helpful. The reality is nobody knows what they would do unless they find themselves in this situation. I’m reasonably confident I would choose to end the pregnancy, but who knows?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,444
2,802
Hartford, Connecticut
✟299,695.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I’m pro-choice and I rarely find these hypotheticals helpful. The reality is nobody knows what they would do unless they find themselves in this situation. I’m reasonably confident I would choose to end the pregnancy, but who knows?

I was predominantly just curious if pro life proponents think that it's fair for an option to be available for abortion, even if it's just a rare extreme case that hardly ever happens. And, I think the feedback I'm getting suggests that most people seem to think that it would be fair to have an option in such extreme cases, as opposed to an all out ban on abortion under any circumstances.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

thelord's_pearl

Well-Known Member
Dec 5, 2018
423
357
ON
✟32,481.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm not sure but I feel the answer is whether or not it was God's will or not, 'thou shalt not kill', the Word of God is truth sadly, even if one is not interested in a man who commits rape and it would be disgusting to you or you will die in pregnancy, we still live in the world of sin and its consequences, but in heaven as His (true) children you will live eternally in joy and no more suffering but only peace and that is eternally and not temporary like the world we are living in now. We should also pray that God would deliver us from any curse; unfortunately one can be under a generational curse, and we should pray for protection and safety. God has said to the effect of 'r my arms too short I cannot save or my ears too dull I cannot hear, but your iniquities have separated you from me.'
I think that once the sperm meets the egg it is a living thing so thou shalt not kill' (it). Finally the Holy Spirit will tell us the truth so we should ask the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us without confusion and that's what I'm going to do with all the questions I've got. God bless
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,766
6,170
Massachusetts
✟589,637.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think it's more of a sin to destroy pain experiencing animals, than it is an embryo that doesn't experience pain and fear, sentience etc.
Well, if a child is unconscious, he or she would not feel you stabbing him or her and killing the child. But what the child can feel does not decide if it is ok to kill the child.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In a circumstance where our spouses life is jeapordised, and where the genes of the rapist are passed on, potentially increasing probability of future rapes, why feel as though an embryo, which feels no pain and experiences no thoughts, and morphologically, is literally boneless, skinless, brainless, heatless etc., is of greater value, than the life of our spouse or future people?

I understand that abortion isn't ideal, but I have a hard time believing that I would let my spouse die, to birth the child of my spouses rapist. Hypothetically.

No one that I know would put the life of the mother above the right to life of the unborn human - if that’s actually the case - abortionist who want the money for abortions like to claim an abortion is necessary for the mothers mental health.

99% of abortions are because the pregnancy is inconvenient.

And we don’t decide people are worthy of death based on the supposed greater likelihood that they will commit a crime.

If you’re going to do that, you could also justify emptying out the jails of every rapist, line them up against a wall, then shoot them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,139
33,259
✟583,852.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well, if a child is unconscious, he or she would not feel you stabbing him or her and killing the child. But what the child can feel does not decide if it is ok to kill the child.
I like your answer, but we're wrong to even bother with a proposition that says killing a human child is more justifiable than killing an adult mosquito.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,766
6,170
Massachusetts
✟589,637.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think that once the sperm meets the egg it is a living thing so thou shalt not kill' (it).
I believe that Jesus was Jesus as soon as He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary's womb.

It does not matter if He could feel anything while He was a zygote. He was Jesus, even then.
 
Upvote 0