A question for my reformed brothers;

[sonofjay817]

I understand that reformed theology teaches faith is a fruit of the Spirit and therefore a man or woman cannot exert faith in being redeemed because a person cannot have a fruit of the Spirit until he/she has the Spirit and the Spirit cannot be in a person's heart until the person has been redeemed. If all of this is so, logic dictates that God, by His sovereign will alone, saves a person if they are part of the elect, and after that person is saved, then he/she has faith in Christ unto justification.

In other words, there is a sequential issue. The Holy Spirit must come into a person before he can believe (have faith in Christ). However, pay close attention to the sequence we see in Ephesians 1:13 (KJV), "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

So the sequence seems to be:
1.Hearing the word of truth
2."Ye" believe
3. Sealing with the Holy Spirit takes place.


What would be the reformed answer to this. The only possible answer I can think if is if one made a distinction between the sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that takes place at salvation, but I'm not sure if that holds water.

 

[Foghorn]

I understand that reformed theology teaches faith is a fruit of the Spirit and therefore a man or woman cannot exert faith in being redeemed because a person cannot have a fruit of the Spirit until he/she has the Spirit and the Spirit cannot be in a person's heart until the person has been redeemed. If all of this is so, logic dictates that God, by His sovereign will alone, saves a person if they are part of the elect, and after that person is saved, then he/she has faith in Christ unto justification.

In other words, there is a sequential issue. The Holy Spirit must come into a person before he can believe (have faith in Christ). However, pay close attention to the sequence we see in Ephesians 1:13 (KJV), "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

So the sequence seems to be:
1.Hearing the word of truth
2."Ye" believe
3. Sealing with the Holy Spirit takes place.


What would be the reformed answer to this. The only possible answer I can think if is if one made a distinction between the sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that takes place at salvation, but I'm not sure if that holds water.

Excellent question.

When we find ourselves believers, belief is joined to the promises of God's grace in Christ to confirm and imprint them in our (believers) hearts, which assures us (seals) of the promise.

Let me try and explain this another way. I believe we find ourselves believing, does this sound odd? Consider Romans 1:16, For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Or more literal, for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.

So, at regeneration we are placed in Christ (mystically united) by the Holy Spirit, from Christ alone flows all the blessings to the church (He is the fount of every blessing), the new man in Christ receives as a gift many blessing one being faith (belief), we find ourselves believing, not trying to believe. We finally believe in out hearts, and therefore confess with our mouths, Yes is Lord! Even though we now, a new man in Christ are able to believe and do believe, we need to finally see we believe, and then we confess Christ. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10

So, you see, the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect at His chosen time, we find we believe the gospel (it is infallible) and when we do we confess with our mouth sealing it, because we know it and we have a blessed assurance. With regeneration (new man in Christ) we are given a new heart, eyes to see and ears to hear, the old man (dead in sin) does not possess these.

Also, this regeneration takes place simultaneously, the only reason there is an order explained is to show God does the work, it is by grace.


Hope this helps

 

[hedrick]

The Holy Spirit works with us in different ways. Foghorn describes regeneration: what Paul calls being grafted into Christ, which is the beginning and foundation of our life in Christ. But the Holy Spirit continues to work in us, and is also responsible for what Reformed theology calls sanctification (and sometimes, confusingly regeneration -- since the result is having "regeneration" refer to two different things).

It appears to me that Eph 1:13 is referring to coming to faith, which is of course a result of the activity of the Holy Spirit. So what is this "seal" of the Spirit that appears to follow faith?

Foghorn's idea that all of Eph 1:13 happens at the same time seems possible to me.

One very common current understanding is Baptism. There is precedent in Scripture and the early Church for speaking of it as a seal. Another commentator understands it as visible signs of the Holy Spirit. (I don't know whether he's speaking of tongues or of something else.)

Calvin, however, sees it as a second action of the Holy Spirit, which confirms the truth of faith. He says that there are two movements of the Holy Spirit in faith, one which starts our understanding, and one which confirms it with "a firm and steady conviction." He understands the seal here as referring to the second.

 

[Foghorn]

Calvin, however, sees it as a second action of the Holy Spirit, which confirms the truth of faith. He says that there are two movements of the Holy Spirit in faith, one which starts our understanding, and one which confirms it with "a firm and steady conviction." He understands the seal here as referring to the second.

Interesting, I haven't read this before on Calvin, but it looks like we are in agreement.

 

[hedrick]

Interesting, I haven't read this before on Calvin, but it looks like we are in agreement.

From his commentary on Ephesians.

 

[Foghorn]

Foghorn's idea that all of Eph 1:13 happens at the same time seems possible to me.

I see you did not understand what I wrote. Figures, since I am not always so good at communicating my point. Hopefully, if you read my post again, you will see what I meant?

Regeneration and belief happen simultaneously, the sealing part is when we realize we are believers. Obviously, this is all not at the same time. At least, it does not seem so to me.

 

[Foghorn]

From his commentary on Ephesians.

Thank you.