34:10,11

TG123

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Salaam Alaikum everyone.

One of the things that the Quran claims that God taught David to make, was coats of mail, from iron.

34:10,11

And We certainly gave David from Us bounty. [We said], "O mountains, repeat [Our] praises with him, and the birds [as well]." And We made pliable for him iron,
[Commanding him], "Make full coats of mail and calculate [precisely] the links, and work [all of you] righteousness. Indeed I, of what you do, am Seeing."



However, the type of mail armour the Quran describes was not invented until between the 3rd and 4th century BC. Its inventors were not Israelites, but Celts. It was not invented in the middle east, but in Europe.

The Romans learned about this, and then began making their own chain mail. They spread it to the middle east around the first century AD.

Mail was originally thought to have originated in the Celtic regions of Europe around the beginning of the 4th century BC. This was confirmed by Roman authors who also believed that the Celts invented mail. Strabo refers to mail as Gallic, and Varro suggests that the Romans adopted it from the Gauls [de Lingua Latina, V, 24, 116].10 One of the earliest examples was found at Ciumesti in modern Romania. The wire used to make the links was between 0.8mm and 1.8mm thick and each link had an outside diameter (O.D.) between 8.5mm and 9.2mm (corrosion is likely to have distorted these figures).11 However, the Ciumesti find has recently been re-dated to the 3rd century BC and is no longer the oldest example.12 A find from a burial of Horny Jatov in Slovakia has been dated to the first half of the 3rd century BC, which makes it earlier than Ciumesti and currently the earliest confirmed example of mail armour. An earlier example was allegedly found at the Hjortspring boat bog sacrifice and dated to the 4th century BC, but later work suggests that the find was not armour at all but natural deposits of iron that form around plant roots in bogs.13 The earliest Celtic example of mail was found at Vielle-Tursan in Aubagnan has been dated to the beginning of the 2nd century BC. A find at Tiefenau, Switzerland, is another 2nd century example of Celtic mail.14 Celtic statues found in Southern France are also likely to depict mailed warriors and date slightly earlier, to the end of the 3rd century BC.

There are mentions of "mail" in texts dating even earlier, but most of them can be discredited as inaccurate translations. As already discussed, "mail" was commonly used by Victorian scholars to describe many types of metal armour, including scale and plate. One well-known example is the Biblical description of Goliath wearing a coat of mail weighing 5,000 shekels of bronze [Samuel, 17.5-6]. The use of the word in this instance was not meant to be specifically referring to "true" (4-in-1) mail but as a general term to describe armour—in this case, bronze scale armour. Another example is the use of the word "mail" by Austen Henry Layard to describe the Assyrian armour he found at Nineveh. However, he later identifies the armour in more detail and confirms that he is describing scale armour, not mail:

The Arabs employed in removing the rubbish from the chamber with the kneeling winged figures, discovered a quantity of iron, in which I soon recognized the scales of the armour represented on the sculptures. These scales were from two to three inches in length, rounded at one end, and square at the other, with a raised or embossed line in the centre, and had probably been fastened to a vest of linen or felt.15

When the inaccurate translations are discounted, there is still one plausible reference dating back to the time of King David (10th century BC). According to Niese16, in Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus recounts an incident in which David is confronted by a Philistine wearing a thôraka halusidôton [5.7.299], which Liddell and Scott16a translate as "armour wrought in chain fashion." At first glance this seems to be a credible source, but it should be remembered that Josephus was writing around nine hundred years after the event in question. It is likely that the oral tradition upon which his work ultimately relied would have changed during those intervening nine centuries. It is also possible that he confused armour worn during his own time with that worn during the time of David. He may even have done this deliberately in order to make his work more accessible to his Gentile audience. Without some supporting evidence, it is impossible to determine whether mail was in use that early. The physical evidence only dates to the 3rd century BC.

Given the available evidence it seems that mail first originated in central Europe in the 3rd century BC and was quickly adopted first by the Celts and then the Romans. Since mail would have been very expensive to make, it is likely that its early use was restricted to the aristocracy—even in Rome. Bishop and Coulston wrote that "before the 1st century BC body armour was very closely linked with social status and wealth."16b


Mail: Unchained -- myArmoury.com

The Assyrians in the 8th century BC did have armour that is called mail by some, but it was comprised of metal plates that were sewn on to the tunics of the warriors.


The Assyrian i-rr-rro-ro&~qs was not, however,
the ultimate weapon. Despite his superior
mobility the unprotected rider was still vulnerable to attack from
infantry archers.

Moreover, in encounters with other mounted archers-e.g.

in the nomadic armies-the Assyrians would
not enjoy any advantage.
Thus, to protect their mounted archers and to maintain
tactical superiority the Assyrians introduced and gradually developed cavalry armour.


Evidence of this innovation is found first in the sculptures of Tiglath-Pileser I11(745-727) from Nimrud, which depict a rider wearing a mail shirt constructed of metal plates sewn on to a tunic (pl. IX, I)
http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_15.pdf

In contrast, 34:11 makes it clear that the coat of mail was comprised of iron links that were joined together.

As tafsirs by Ibn Qathir and Yusuf Ali show, what the Quran's author is describing is chain mail, comprised of iron chain links which were made to fit each other, to make a coat.

10. We bestowed Grace aforetime on David from Ourselves:
C3799. Cf. 21:79-80, and notes 2733-34.
David had the gift of song and sacred music, and this is shown in his Psalms.
All nature-hills and birds-sing and echo back the Praises of Allah.
... يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ...
"O ye Mountains! sing ye back the Praises of Allah with him!
and ye birds (also)!
... وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ ﴿١٠﴾
and We made the iron soft for Him --
C3800. Iron or steel is hard stuff: but in the hands of a craftsman it becomes soft and pliable, and with it can be made instruments for the defence of righteousness.
These, in the literal sense, are coats of mail, and defensive armour, and the manufacture of them is traditionally attributed to David. (R).
أَنِ اعْمَلْ سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ فِي السَّرْدِ...
11. (Commanding),
"Make thou coats of mail, balancing well the rings of chain armor,
C3801. Coats of chain armour have to be made with cunning art, if the chains are to fit into each other and the whole garment is to be worn in comfort in fierce warfare.


Quran Arabic Surah (Sura) Saba' with English Translation & Commentary (Tafsir) by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Recitation By Said Al Ghamdi MP3, Free Download

Tafsir Ibn Qathir

And We made the iron soft for him. Al-Hلasan Al-Basلri, Qata0dah, Al-A mash and others said, He did not need to heat it in the fire or beat it with a hammer؛ he could simply twist it in his hands, like a thread. Alla0h said:
﴿أَنِ اعْمَلْ سَـبِغَـتٍ﴾
Saying: Make you perfect coats of mail... , which means chain mail. Qata0dah said, He was the first person ever to make chain mail؛ before that, they used to wear plated armor.
﴿وَقَدِّرْ فِى السَّرْدِ﴾
(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) This is how Allah taught His Prophet Dawud, peace be upon him, to make coats of mail. Mujahid said concerning the Ayah:
﴿وَقَدِّرْ فِى السَّرْدِ﴾
(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) "Do not make the rivets too loose that the rings (of chain mail) will shake, or make them too tight that they will not be able to move at all, but make it just right.'' `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that `Ibn `Abbas said, "Sard refers to a ring of iron.'' Some of them said, "Chain mail is called Masrud if it is held together with rivets.''
Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Favors which Allah bestowed upon Dawud
Tafsir Al Jalalayn
And verily We bestowed on David a [great] favour from Us — prophethood and scripture — and We said: ‘O mountains, repeat with him [in praise], by making glorifications, and the birds [too]!’ (read wa’l-tayra in the accusative as a supplement to the [syntactical] locus of jibāl, ‘mountains’, in other words, and We also called on them to glorify [God] with him). And We made iron malleable for him, so that it was as dough in his hands.
And We said: ‘Fashion, from it, long coats of mail — complete suits of armour which the person wearing it drags behind him along the ground — and measure [well] the links’, that is, in the weaving of the coats (the maker of these is called sarrād). In other words, make them so that the rings thereof are arranged properly. And act, O family of David, together with him, righteously. Indeed I am Seer of what you do, and will requite you for it accordingly.
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=34&tAyahNo=11&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


The Quran claims that God taught David to make chain mail. However, the fact is that this technology was not invented until some 700 years after his death.
 

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wa Alaikum Salaam,

Then in the bible we have In 1 Samual 17:38

English Standard Version
Then Saul clothed David with his armor. He put a helmet of bronze on his head and clothed him with a coat of mail,
Looking at it in the Hebrew transliterated into English letters we have:

17:38 waYal'Bësh shäûl et-Däwid maDäyw w'nätan qôva n'choshet al-roshô waYal'Bësh otô shir'yôn
SOURCE

Shir'yon is translated into English as "Coat of Mail

Keeping in mind Qur'anic Arabic has many similarities to Biblical Hebrew as they are related languages.

Looking at the Transliteration of the Arabic 34: 10-11 we have:

Walaqad atayna dawooda minna fadlan ya jibalu awwibee maAAahu waalttayra waalanna lahu alhadeeda

34:10 (Y. Ali) We bestowed Grace aforetime on David from ourselves: "O ye Mountains! Sing ye back the Praises of Allah with him! and ye birds (also)! And We made the iron soft for him;-
Ani iAAmal sabighatin waqaddir fee alssardi waiAAmaloo salihan innee bima taAAmaloona baseerun

34:11 (Y. Ali) (Commanding), "Make thou coats of mail, balancing well the rings of chain armour, and work ye righteousness; for be sure I see (clearly) all that ye do."
Salihan is translated as "Chain Armour" note the similarity to Shiryon in pronunciation

Sabighatan is translated as "Coat of mail" however I see it more as "Armor" of coat of iron.

But the point is one of 3 things is happening

1. David did wear a Coat of Mail

2. Both the Hebrew and Arabic are improperly translated and there is no English equal for Shiryon and Salihan

3. Both the Qur'an and the Bible are in error.

I believe :

2. Both the Hebrew and Arabic are improperly translated and their is no English equal for Shiryon and Salihan

is the correct explanation
 
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TG123

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wa Alaikum Salaam,

Then in the bible we have In 1 Samual 17:38

Looking at it in the Hebrew transliterated into English letters we have:

SOURCE

Shir'yon is translated into English as "Coat of Mail

Keeping in mind Qur'anic Arabic has many similarities to Biblical Hebrew as they are related languages.

Looking at the Transliteration of the Arabic 34: 10-11 we have:

Salihan is translated as "Chain Armour" note the similarity to Shiryon in pronunciation

Sabighatan is translated as "Coat of mail" however I see it more as "Armor" of coat of iron.

But the point is one of 3 things is happening

1. David did wear a Coat of Mail

2. Both the Hebrew and Arabic are improperly translated and there is no English equal for Shiryon and Salihan

3. Both the Qur'an and the Bible are in error.

I believe :

2. Both the Hebrew and Arabic are improperly translated and their is no English equal for Shiryon and Salihan

is the correct explanation

Salaam Alaikum, WoodrowX. Thanks so much for your response.

While I believe that the Bible has some errors in it (for example, rabbits chewing the cud or there existing a Jewish army of 600,000 men), in this case it is a mistranslation. I don't believe though that in this case, the same can be said for the Quran. Let me explain my reasoning, and please feel free to challenge whatever I say.

As you have pointed out, in 1 Samuel 17:38, the term "coat of mail" is also used. However, the same word is used several other times in the Bible, in situations where what it describes are breastplates. This would be like plated armour.

שִׁרְיוֺן, שִׁרְיָ֑ן [SIZE=+1]noun [masculine][/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]body-armour[/SIZE]; — absolute שִׁרְיוֺן 1 Samuel 17:5,38; שִׁרְיָ֑ן (Ges§ 29u) 1 Kings 22:34 2Chronicles 18:33, שִׁרְיָ֔ן Isaiah 59:17; plural שִׁרְיֹנִים Nehemiah 4:10, שִׁרְיֹנוֺת2Chronicles 26:14; — body-armour, perhaps more exactly breast-armour, Nehemiah 4:10; with appendages (הַדְּבָקִים) 1 Kings 22:34 2Chronicles 18:33; with verb לבשׁ 1 Samuel 17:5, made of scale-like plates (קַשְׂקֵשִּׂים) of bronze 1 Samuel 17:5, named with helmet here, so 1 Samuel 17:38; 2Chronicles 26:14 and (figurative) Isaiah 59:17. — ׳שׂ proper name see שׂריון.

Strong's Hebrew: 8302. שִׁרְיוֹן (shiryon or shiryan) -- body armor

The author of 1 Samuel lived before the 3rd century BC, so he could not have been writing abut something that hadn't yet been invented.

Plate armour was already in use at the time of David, as the sources on my original thread have shown.


Had the Quran said that God taught David to make coats of mail and just left it as that, it would have been hypocritical to accuse the Quran in this case of being inaccurate but the Bible of not being wrong.

However, let's look at the whole verse again:

34:10,11

And We certainly gave David from Us bounty. [We said], "O mountains, repeat [Our] praises with him, and the birds [as well]." And We made pliable for him iron,
[Commanding him], "Make full coats of mail and calculate [precisely] the links, and work [all of you] righteousness. Indeed I, of what you do, am Seeing."


The section below describes how mail armour is made. It is in line with the description in 38:11, as links are made from wire and then used to make the armour.

Riveted mail links are fashioned from wire. The most common method of making wire is by means of a draw plate but there are other ways. Williams describes two of these: "[1] Small fragments of iron (perhaps from an imperfectly consolidated bloom) can be hammered into swages, or [2] strips cut from flattened pieces and then twisted."17 Some have argued that wire drawing was not known until the Middle Ages because it is first mentioned by Theophilus in his 11th century text, On divers arts.18 However, the dimensional consistency of Roman mail, a thousand years earlier, suggests that at least part of the Roman process of making wire involved the use of a draw plate.19 This device consists of a block of stone or metal with a series of tapered holes. Each hole has a slightly smaller diameter so that the diameter of the wire gradually decreases (and its length increases) as it is pulled through successively smaller holes. There have been at least two draw plates found that date to the Roman period. One was found at Vindolanda in Northern Britain and the other at Altena near Dusseldorf in Germany.20 Microscopic analysis of the slag alignment in mail rings also suggests that Roman mail was made from drawn wire. The wrought iron used for wire drawing must be of a high quality. Too many large slag inclusions will cause the wire to break continually during the drawing process. If the slag is finely distributed throughout the iron, breakage is less likely to occur.


Once the wire is of the desired diameter, the next step is to wrap it around a cylindrical rod called a "mandrel" to form a coil. According to Erik D. Schmid,21 the individual links were then cut off the coil with either a hammer and chisel or with a pinching-type hand cutter. During this process, the iron had work-hardened, so it needed to be normalized before any more work could be performed on the links. Normalizing was performed by stringing the links on a length of wire and laying them in a bed of hot coals until they were of a yellow heat and allowed to cool slowly. Once softened, the links had their two ends "lapped" with a pair of tongs and either the entire link or just the lapped area was flattened with a hammer. This flattened area is needed in order to pierce the link with a highly tapered and hardened drift to make a rivet hole. The flattened and pierced link was then placed into the mail weave and a rivet was inserted into the hole. A special set of tongs with a dimple worked into one side of the jaws was used to peen the rivet and close the link. The rivet-hole could be different shapes, depending on the type of rivet used to join the link. Roman mail utilized round-sectioned rivets in round holes. So did early Medieval mail. Later, in some regions, such as in Germany between the 13th and 16th centuries, wedge-shaped rivets were inserted into ovoid holes. Some types of mail made use of two rivets in adjacent holes through each link to increase the strength of the link.22 Other rare examples of mail links are closed by means of a U-shaped "staple" that passes through an elongated hole and is folded over.23


The vast majority of mail since the earliest samples found was made of alternating rows of riveted and "solid" rings—i.e. links with no riveted join. Some solid links were forge-welded closed but the vast majority were punched out of a flat sheet of iron. After microscopic analysis, Biek (1963) was the first to suggest that solid links were made with a punch and die,24 and later analysis of extant links support this suggestion. Dr. David Sim reasonably argued that the high quality of Roman coins indicate that the Romans could easily have manufactured a punch and die set for making solid mail links, and he proceeded to reconstruct a set using simple tools and techniques.25 The advantage of making mail in alternating rows of solid and riveted links is that it dramatically reduces the manufacture time. If an armourer has a supply of prefabricated links, he can insert two links at a time and only has to rivet one of them closed. The time saved in "weaving" the mail could be up to fifty-percent. This method of construction remained largely unchanged until the end of the Middle Ages in Europe and even later in India and the Middle East.

Mail: Unchained -- myArmoury.com

In contrast, plate armour that existed at that time was composed of pieces of metal that were sewn to a tunic.


The Assyrian i-rr-rro-ro&~qs was not, however,
the ultimate weapon. Despite his superior
mobility the unprotected rider was still vulnerable to attack from
infantry archers.

Moreover, in encounters with other mounted archers-e.g.

in the nomadic armies-the Assyrians would
not enjoy any advantage.
Thus, to protect their mounted archers and to maintain
tactical superiority the Assyrians introduced and gradually developed cavalry armour.


Evidence of this innovation is found first in the sculptures of Tiglath-Pileser I11(745-727) from Nimrud, which depict a rider wearing a mail shirt constructed of metal plates sewn on to a tunic (pl. IX, I)
http://www.themailresearchsociety.er...mrs_pdf_15.pdf

The metal plates are not linked together.

Calculating metal links from iron is important if you are making chainmail. It is unecessary when making plate mail, since it is composed of metal pieces that are not linked to each other, but are instead sewn on to a piece of clothing, or connected with some leather- but they are not linked to each other like chain mail is.

Here is a picture of chain mail.

texture-antique-chain-mail-5519423.jpg


Here is a picture of plate armor.

Scale_armor3.JPG



We can see iron links in the first example very clearly. The second example is made of pieces of metal that are sewn onto another surface.
 
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Silent Ocean

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Asalam ala mn etaba'a alhuda, السلام على من اتبع الهدى

Your point is that the Quran is stating a lie ? because of 'mail' and the history of mail that you provided?

However, the type of mail armour the Quran describes was not invented until between the 3rd and 4th century BC. Its inventors were not Israelites, but Celts. It was not invented in the middle east, but in Europe.

Where in the Quran does Allah-subhana wu ta'ala- says that the mail armour mentioned is the invention of Israelites? Please quote.

Secondly, the arabic word, 'sard' has the following meanings: to be in sequence [as in something following the other. For example when I narrat a story to you that consist of events, and I mention the events one after the other, the process of narrating this story is 'sard'.] Sard is also a term that include armours in general, and all halaq [halaq refers to shape like the ones that make chain but not necessary chain.] In addition, sard refers to making armours [the noun of it]/ nashj* armours this could also mean sewing/knitting armours~

Last comment: who knows where will they find the next ancient chainmail armour. For me, discoveries are part of facts always & forever~

:)

:)

:D

Bye~
 
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WoodrowX2

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I'll begin with pointing out the different ways 34: 10-11 are interpreted. There are quite a few words in there that have no English counter part. Pickthal and Ali were both very familiar with the KJV and they did make their translations to be as close in agreement with the KJV as possible. The translations by Ali and Pickthal are very similar except Ali attmpted to use more modern English insteated of Pickthall's attempt to use Elizabethian

Here are various translations:

Ali



وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ (34:10)

Walaqad atayna dawooda minna fadlan ya jibalu awwibee maAAahu waalttayra waalanna lahu alhadeeda

34:10 (Y. Ali) We bestowed Grace aforetime on David from ourselves: "O ye Mountains! Sing ye back the Praises of Allah with him! and ye birds (also)! And We made the iron soft for him;-

أَنِ اعْمَلْ سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ فِي السَّرْدِ وَاعْمَلُوا صَالِحًا إِنِّي بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ (34:11)

Ani iAAmal sabighatin waqaddir fee alssardi waiAAmaloo salihan innee bima taAAmaloona baseerun

34:11 (Y. Ali) (Commanding), "Make thou coats of mail, balancing well the rings of chain armour, and work ye righteousness; for be sure I see (clearly) all that ye do."
Pickthall


وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ (34:10)

Walaqad atayna dawooda minna fadlan ya jibalu awwibee maAAahu waalttayra waalanna lahu alhadeeda

34:10 (Picktall) And assuredly We gave David grace from Us, (saying): O ye hills and birds, echo his psalms of praise! And We made the iron supple unto him,

أَنِ اعْمَلْ سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ فِي السَّرْدِ وَاعْمَلُوا صَالِحًا إِنِّي بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ (34:11)

Ani iAAmal sabighatin waqaddir fee alssardi waiAAmaloo salihan innee bima taAAmaloona baseerun

34:11 (Picktall) Saying: Make thou long coats of mail and measure the links (thereof). And do ye right. Lo! I am Seer of what ye do.
Asad


وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ (34:10)

Walaqad atayna dawooda minna fadlan ya jibalu awwibee maAAahu waalttayra waalanna lahu alhadeeda

34:10 (Asad) AND [thus], indeed, did We grace David with Our favour: [10] “O you mountains! Sing with him the praise of God! And [likewise] you birds!” [11] And We softened all sharpness in him, [12]

أَنِ اعْمَلْ سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ فِي السَّرْدِ وَاعْمَلُوا صَالِحًا إِنِّي بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ (34:11)

Ani iAAmal sabighatin waqaddir fee alssardi waiAAmaloo salihan innee bima taAAmaloona baseerun

34:11 (Asad) [and inspired him thus:] “Do good deeds lavishly, without stint, and give deep thought to their steady flow.” And [thus should you all, O believers,] do righteous deeds: for, verily, I see all that you do!
Seems we have a major difference in the concepts of salihan

Now using various online translators let us see how (صَالِحًا) salihan can be translated:

Using Babylon:
صَالِحًا
make one's peace with, make up
Using Google Translator
صَالِحًا
Translations of صالح
adjective

valid
good
righteous
godly
useful
veracious
adequate
Uh-Oh --Houston we have a Problem

Well let us see how the online translators handle the entire ayyat 34:11

Babylon
اعْمَلْ سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ فِي السَّرْدِ وَاعْمَلُوا صَالِحًا إِنِّي بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ )
I now ample piety and estimated in the making of coats valid ) I am Seeing what you do.
Google Translator
نِ اعْمَلْ سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ فِي السَّرْدِ وَاعْمَلُوا صَالِحًا إِنِّي بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ )
N Sabgat work and as much as in the narrative, and do what you do good, I Basir)
English Translation of the Holy Quran by Maulana Muhammad Ali
34:10 And certainly We gave David abundance from Us: O mountains, repeat praises with him, and the birds, and We made the iron pliant to him,

34:11 Saying: Make ample, and assign a time to the making of coats of mail and do ye good. Surely I am Seer of what you do.
The translation is not as clear as it seems.

Difficult to understand if salihan is being used in a literal sense or metaphorical.

Looking at the translations it seems intended to be in the literal concept of Righteousness and not in a metaphorical concept of protective clothing.

Trying another experiment and see how "Coat of Mail" word be in Arabic.

Using Google translator

Coat of Mail
معطف من البريد

Coat of Armor
معطف من المدرعات

Coat of Chain Links
معطف من روابط سلاسل

Coat
معطف

Nothing is matching with سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ What Pickthall translates as "Long coats of Mail"

Just my opinion, but I think Pickthall and Yusuf Ali set a bad precedent with their Translations.

Also as my siste Mase said. Chain is not specifiacally named as the word sard means orderly and not chain links.
 
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From the first English translation of the Qur,an the 1649 Alexander Ross Translation here are 34:10-11

We gave our grace to David, and fpake to the mountains, birds, and mettals with him, to praife me ; we commanded him to make cuirafles, and iron was foft in his hand, as wax.

O lineage ofDavldl be not ingrateful, I fee whatfoever ye do.

We made the winds fubjea to Sclomon, he commanded them evening and morning,

SOURCE
 
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I should have posted more in the post above. The link I gave is rather difficult to navigat if you are not familiar with the Quran. To verify what I quoted you need to scroll way down.

Most Quran translation do not have the lines numberd especially older ones


But if you want to use the link I posted you need to scroll way down to here

CHAP. XXXIV.

The Chapter of^ S^h^yCmt fining fifty fern Ferfes, ^Xritte/i at * s.2h.i is a

Mecca. Provmceof

Licmen.

IN the Name of God, gracious and merciful. Fraifcd be God, '^^
whatfoeverisin heaven, and in the earth appertaineth to
him ; praife is due unto him, he is moft wife and Omnifcient :
he knoweth whatfoever entreth into the earth, and cometh out
of it, whatfoever afcendeth to heaven, and defcendeth, he is
gracious and merciful to his creatures. The wicked demand if
they (hall fee the day of Judgment ; Say unto them, yes, and
that thy Lord knoweth the time ; he knoweth what is paft,
prefent, and future, and all that is in heaven and in the earth,
even to the weight of an Atomc; what is yet lefs,and what is yet
greater then an A tome, is written m abookthat difcovereth
every thing ; he (hall reward the true-believers that have done
good works; he fhall give them his mercy, and enrich them
with precious treafures : luch as have endeavoured to fupprefs
his Law, Qiall feel the effeds of his indignation, they that u'n-
derftandthe Scripture, know that God hath taught thee the
very truch,to guide the people into the right way,into the path
of honour and vertue^but the wicked laid among them, will ye
believe a man, who affirmeth, that after your death ye fhall rife
again, and be new creatures .? he lyeth impudently, he is pof-
feffed of the devill. Certainly they that believe not in the Re-
furredion,are in an exceeding great error, and Qiall fuffer moft
grievous pains ; fee they not what is above, and what is below
them ? Confider they not the heaven and the earth ? If I will,
J can render it barren, and caufe a piece of the heaven to fall
upon them for a fign of my Omnipotency. We gave our grace
to David, and fpake to the mountains, birds, and mettals with
him, to praife me ; we commanded him to make cuirafles,
and iron was foft in his hand, as wax. O lineage ofDavldl be
not ingrateful, I fee whatfoever ye do. We made the winds
fubjea to Sclomon, he commanded them evening and morning,
^

S 4 from



2 ^4 TIqc Alcoran. 0/ M a h o u e ir . Chap.'^^^^

from the Eaft to the Weft ; we gave him a fountain, and a
brook of diflfolved brafs ; the devils, through our permiflion,
wrought it tohisminde, and we punillied in the fire of hdi

The word cuirafles, is from 17th century French and is armor that covers the chest,stomach and back. In searching for the meaning I also found it referred in the Phrase "Cuirafles de Deux" (Armor of God )

Chain link Armor is Maillon


 
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Salaam Alaikum, WoodrowX.

Thank you for your quick and thoughtful response.

I'll begin with pointing out the different ways 34: 10-11 are interpreted. There are quite a few words in there that have no English counter part. Pickthal and Ali were both very familiar with the KJV and they did make their translations to be as close in agreement with the KJV as possible. The translations by Ali and Pickthal are very similar except Ali attmpted to use more modern English insteated of Pickthall's attempt to use Elizabethian

Here are various translations:

Seems we have a major difference in the concepts of salihan
How is it different, and why does it matter?

"Salihan" means "righteousness".

34:11 (Y. Ali) (Commanding), "Make thou coats of mail, balancing well the rings of chain armour, and work ye righteousness; for be sure I see (clearly) all that ye do."

34:11 (Picktall) Saying: Make thou long coats of mail and measure the links (thereof). And do ye right. Lo! I am Seer of what ye do.

34:11 (Asad) [and inspired him thus:] “Do good deeds lavishly, without stint, and give deep thought to their steady flow.” And [thus should you all, O believers,] do righteous deeds: for, verily, I see all that you do!

I was not discussing righteousness, but the concept of chain mail.

In Google Translate, the word "sardi"... or links, as per Corpus Quran... is translated as

Translations of سرد

noun

narrative
سرد, قصة, حكاية


enumeration
تعداد, عد, سرد, قائمة, حساب


record
تسجيل, سجل, محضر, رقم قياسي, تدوين, سرد


recital
تلاوة, سرد, إلقاء كلمة, عرض, حفلة موسيقية فردية, عزف موسيقي منفرد

recitation
تلاوة, سرد, إنشاد, إلقاء كلمة, سرد حساب, رواية


rehearsal
بروفة, إعادة, سرد, مراجعة, تكرير, شىء يسرد من جديد


relation
علاقة, صلة, رابطة, نسب, حكاية, سرد


According to Babylon, it is means


enumerate, retail, recite, recount

"Coats of Mail" is translated in Google Translate as "Sabgat", and in Babylon as "ample piety".

Now using various online translators let us see how (صَالِحًا) salihan can be translated:

Uh-Oh --Houston we have a Problem
Captain Kirk, no we don't.

We aren't debating over what the word "salihan" means. We are discussing the Quran's description of the coat of mail that God allegedly taught King David to make.

Well let us see how the online translators handle the entire ayyat 34:11


The translation is not as clear as it seems.

Difficult to understand if salihan is being used in a literal sense or metaphorical.

Looking at the translations it seems intended to be in the literal concept of Righteousness and not in a metaphorical concept of protective clothing.

Trying another experiment and see how "Coat of Mail" word be in Arabic.

Using Google translator

Coat of Mail
معطف من البريد

Coat of Armor
معطف من المدرعات

Coat of Chain Links
معطف من روابط سلاسل

Coat
معطف

Nothing is matching with سَابِغَاتٍ وَقَدِّرْ What Pickthall translates as "Long coats of Mail"

Just my opinion, but I think Pickthall and Yusuf Ali set a bad precedent with their Translations.

I'm afraid that the evidence you have presented does not do much to defend the Assad translation.

Firstly, "salihan" means "righteousness", and all three translations we looked at agree on the word.


Secondly, the words "sardi" and "sabighatin" do not translate, according to Google Translate or Babylon, into neither "coats of mail" or "links"... nor into anything similar to:

Do good deeds lavishly, without stint, and give deep thought to their steady flow.

So we are neither Google Translate or Babylon help make the case for either translation.

So let's look at what the medieval tafsir writers wrote- they not only lived closer to the time of Muhammad, but they also were all Arabs and had a better knowledge of classical Arabic than either you or I or anyone else on this forum.

Let's look at 34:11 as seen by tafsir Ibn Abbas, tafsir Al Jalalayn, and tafsir Al Qathir. We know that Tafsir Ibn Abbas was collected in the 9th century, and is a collection of both Abbas' writings and that of Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub al-Firuzabadi. The authorship is a bit uncertain, according to altafsir.com

Altafsir.com – Tafsir Ibn-'Abbas - ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ

Tafsir Al Jalalayn was composed in 1459 and 1505, by Jalal al-Din al-Mahalli and Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti. Unlike tafsir Ibn Abbas, the authorship is known. However, it was written at a much later date.

Altafsir.com – Tafsir al-Jalalayn - ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáÌáÇáíä


Tafsir Ibn Qathir was composed in the 14th century by Ismail Ibn Qathir. It is based on the works of Al-Tabari, who lived in the 9th century.

Tabari (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So let's dive in.

According to Tafsir Ibn Abbas, the verse states:

(Saying: Make thou long coats of mail and measure the links (thereof)) the measure of a nail such that it is neither bigger nor smaller than it. (And do ye right) sincerely to Him. (Lo! I am Seer) Aware (of what ye do) of good or evil.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

So the authors of Tafsir Ibn Abbas wrote that the links are the size of a nail. The words "coats of mail" and "links" are used, not the words that Muhammad Assad used.

According to Tafsir Al Jalalayn, the verse states:

And We said: ‘Fashion, from it, long coats of mail — complete suits of armour which the person wearing it drags behind him along the ground — and measure [well] the links’, that is, in the weaving of the coats (the maker of these is called sarrād). In other words, make them so that the rings thereof are arranged properly. And act, O family of David, together with him, righteously. Indeed I am Seer of what you do, and will requite you for it accordingly.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

So we see that according to the Al Jalalayns, rings were arranged in the coats of mail- which would be a perfect description of chain mail.

Let's see again Tafsir Ibn Qathir.

Saying: Make you perfect coats of mail... , which means chain mail. Qata0dah said, He was the first person ever to make chain mail؛ before that, they used to wear plated armor.
(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) This is how Allah taught His Prophet Dawud, peace be upon him, to make coats of mail. Mujahid said concerning the Ayah:
(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) "Do not make the rivets too loose that the rings (of chain mail) will shake, or make them too tight that they will not be able to move at all, but make it just right.'' `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that `Ibn `Abbas said, "Sard refers to a ring of iron.'' Some of them said, "Chain mail is called Masrud if it is held together with rivets.''


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Favors which Allah bestowed upon Dawud


We know already that Ibn Qathir believed that the Quran's author was referring to chain mail... but notice that he does not only provide his opinion on this.


He writes:

Qata0dah said, He was the first person ever to make chain mail؛ before that, they used to wear plated armor.


Qatadah ibn al-Numan was one of the companions of Muhammad. He clearly believed that the verse was about chain mail, and went as far to as differentiate between it and plated armour, which is what the Assyrians used to wear.



Qatada ibn al-Nu'man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Mujahid said concerning the Ayah:(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) "Do not make the rivets too loose that the rings (of chain mail) will shake, or make them too tight that they will not be able to move at all, but make it just right.''


Mujahid Ibn Jabrir lived a century after Muhammad, and wrote the first tafsir of the Quran. He also believed that the verse was a reference to chain armor.


Mujahid ibn Jabr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now for the important quote, which I think demonstrates what 'sard' meant.


`Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that `Ibn `Abbas said, "Sard refers to a ring of iron.''

Ibn Abbas was one of Muhammad's companions, until Muhammad passed away when Abbas was thirteen. He knew both the Quran and Muhammad's sayings very well.
SunnahOnline.com - 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas

He also, as we see, believed that the coats were comprised of "rings of iron"- which could only be a reference to chain mail.

Neither Ibn Qathir, the people he cited, or the Al Jalalayns ever read the KJV, yet they came to the same conclusions that Yusuf Ali and Pickthal did. Google Translate and Babylon don't help either your case or mine.

Also as my siste Mase said. Chain is not specifiacally named as the word sard means orderly and not chain links.
Corpus Quran translates it as links of armor. Google Translate and Babylon translate it as "recite" or "record". The Al Jalalayns as well as Ibn Qathir- and Qatadah and Ibn Abbas- who were Muhammad's companions- made it clear that the verse is talking about chain mail.

There is far more evidence from early Muslim sources that the Quran is referring to chain-mail than any kind of armour, or for the meaning that Muhammad Asad gives.

This is a great discussion. I hope you weren't offended by my "Captain Kirk" comment. It was meant in good fun, like I assume your Apollo 13 quote was. Hope I didn't come across as insulting in anything I wrote, actually.
 
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Asalam ala mn etaba'a alhuda,
السلام على من اتبع الهدى
Sorry, I'll be the first to admit my knowledge of Arabic is terrible. What does that mean?

Your point is that the Quran is stating a lie ? because of 'mail' and the history of mail that you provided?
If not lie, than a mistake.

Where in the Quran does Allah-subhana wu ta'ala- says that the mail armour mentioned is the invention of Israelites? Please quote.
Nowhere. Where did I say that the Quran states that mail armour was invented by the Israelites?

Secondly, the arabic word, 'sard' has the following meanings: to be in sequence [as in something following the other. For example when I narrat a story to you that consist of events, and I mention the events one after the other, the process of narrating this story is 'sard'.] Sard is also a term that include armours in general, and all halaq [halaq refers to shape like the ones that make chain but not necessary chain.] In addition, sard refers to making armours [the noun of it]/ nashj* armours this could also mean sewing/knitting armours~
Corpus Quran refers to it as links of armour. Tafsirs by the Al Jalalayns and Ibn Qathir also make it clear this is a reference to chain armour. Furthermore, Mujahid, Ibn Abbas and Qatadah are quoted as saying that this is a reference to rings linked together and chain armour.

Last comment: who knows where will they find the next ancient chainmail armour. For me, discoveries are part of facts always & forever~
Going by this approach, nothing can be declared to be historically false. Perhaps Moses flew in a glider, or rode a bicycle. There is always a possibility we may discover an ancient glider or two-wheeler. I wouldn't say it's likely, though.
Had the Israelites invented chain-mail armour, how would it have been possible that no one in the middle east would have heard about it until the Romans came?

Tisbah al khaeyr. :)
 
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I should have posted more in the post above. The link I gave is rather difficult to navigat if you are not familiar with the Quran. To verify what I quoted you need to scroll way down.

Most Quran translation do not have the lines numberd especially older ones


But if you want to use the link I posted you need to scroll way down to here



The word cuirafles, is from 17th century French and is armor that covers the chest,stomach and back. In searching for the meaning I also found it referred in the Phrase "Cuirafles de Deux" (Armor of God )

Chain link Armor is Maillon


Thanks for showing this.

You are aware that Alexander Ross' "translation" is based off a French source, and that the guy knew absolutely no Arabic, right? I love the first line of this spiel:

Description: Labeling the Alexander Ross Qur’an as a translation adds to the confusion. A translation may imply a direct conversion of the words from Arabic to English. Alexander “Ross did not know Arabic and relied completely on the French translation by Andrew du Ryer who served as the French Consul in Egypt” (Matar 82). The 1649 translation by Alexander Ross is a translation of Andrew Du Ryer’s 1647 French Qur’an, which was a direct translation from the Arabic. The translation created by Alexander Ross is the only English translation that is not a direct translation from an Arabic source.
The 1649 Alexander Ross translation began amidst a state of civil war steeped in religious controversy. The controversy between the Catholic translator and the new Puritan leadership would be cited and inserted into the preface of this new Qur’an. The other aspect of the controversy remains today as this translation is consistently cited in a pejorative sense in Muslim translations of the Qur’an or Muslim books about the Qur’an. For example, the book titled The Qur’ân and the Orientalists published in 2004 states that Alexander Ross “…aimed at exposing what he called the ‘Turkish Vanities.’ This phrase betrays, on the one hand his and his contemporary Europeans’ dislike of the Turks…” (MoharAli 326)...

Alexander Ross

This is coming from a guy who hated the Turks and wanted to expose their "vanities". The funny part is that the Quran is not Turkish to begin with, so Ross he successfully exposed himself- as a twit. I would give his interpretation as much credence as I would give if one day there came out a Quran translation by "pastor" Terry Jones... or a Bible translation by Osama bin Laden.

I would be interested in seeing if there are tafsirs by any medieval Muslim scholars who interpreted 34:11 as discussing something other than chain mail.
 
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Thanks for showing this.

You are aware that Alexander Ross' "translation" is based off a French source, and that the guy knew absolutely no Arabic, right? I love the first line of this spiel:

Description: Labeling the Alexander Ross Qur’an as a translation adds to the confusion. A translation may imply a direct conversion of the words from Arabic to English. Alexander “Ross did not know Arabic and relied completely on the French translation by Andrew du Ryer who served as the French Consul in Egypt” (Matar 82). The 1649 translation by Alexander Ross is a translation of Andrew Du Ryer’s 1647 French Qur’an, which was a direct translation from the Arabic. The translation created by Alexander Ross is the only English translation that is not a direct translation from an Arabic source.
The 1649 Alexander Ross translation began amidst a state of civil war steeped in religious controversy. The controversy between the Catholic translator and the new Puritan leadership would be cited and inserted into the preface of this new Qur’an. The other aspect of the controversy remains today as this translation is consistently cited in a pejorative sense in Muslim translations of the Qur’an or Muslim books about the Qur’an. For example, the book titled The Qur’ân and the Orientalists published in 2004 states that Alexander Ross “…aimed at exposing what he called the ‘Turkish Vanities.’ This phrase betrays, on the one hand his and his contemporary Europeans’ dislike of the Turks…” (MoharAli 326)...

Alexander Ross

This is coming from a guy who hated the Turks and wanted to expose their "vanities". The funny part is that the Quran is not Turkish to begin with, so Ross he successfully exposed himself- as a twit. I would give his interpretation as much credence as I would give if one day there came out a Quran translation by "pastor" Terry Jones... or a Bible translation by Osama bin Laden.

I would be interested in seeing if there are tafsirs by any medieval Muslim scholars who interpreted 34:11 as discussing something other than chain mail.

Yes the Ross translation is biased and based on translating from French to English. Virtually all of the Translatios from him to Pickthal had similar Problems
The difficulty with the major Tafsir and the Ahadith is they are written in Arabic. And you run into the same translation difficulties.

What would be interesting is to Take a modern French translation of Surah 34 And use Google to translate that to English. My French is limited to High School French and South Lowuisiana Cajun. But for the heck of it Here is Surah 34 1-15 in French

34:1 (French) Louange à Allah à qui appartient tout ce qui est dans les cieux et tout ce qui est sur la terre. Et louange à Lui dans l'au-delà. Et c'est Lui le Sage, le Parfaitement Connaisseur.

34:2 (French) Il sait qui pénètre en terre et qui en sort, ce qui descend du ciel et ce qui y remonte. Et c'est Lui le Miséricordieux, le Pardonneur.

34:3 (French) Ceux qui ne croient pas disent: "L'Heure de nous viendra pas". Dis: "Par mon Seigneur! Très certainement, elle vous viendra. [Mon Seigneur] le Connaisseur de l'Inconnaissable. Rien ne Lui échappe fût-il du poids d'un atome dans les cieux, comme sur la terre. Et rien n'existe de plus petit ni de plus grand, qui ne soit inscrit dans un Livre explicite.

34:4 (French) afin qu'Il récompense ceux qui croient et accomplissent les bonnes oeuvres. Pour ceux-ci, il y aura un pardon et un don généreux.

34:5 (French) Et ceux qui s'efforcent de rendre vains Nos versets, ceux-là auront le châtiment d'un supplice douloureux.

34:6 (French) Et ceux à qui le savoir a été donné voient qu'on t'a fait descendre de la part de ton Seigneur est la vérité qui guide au chemin du Tout Puissant, du Digne de Louange.

34:7 (French) Et ceux qui ne croient pas dirent: "Voulez-vous que l'on vous montre un homme qui vous prédise que lorsque vous serez complètement désintégrés, vous reparaîtrez, sans nul doute, en une nouvelle création?

34:8 (French) Invente-t-il un mensonge contre Allah? ou bien est-il fou?" [Non], mais ceux qui ne croient pas en l'au-delà sont voués au châtiment et à l'égarement lointain.

34:9 (French) Ne voient-ils donc pas ce qu'il y a comme ciel et comme terre devant et derrière eux? Si Nous voulions, Nous ferions au la terre les engloutisse, ou que des morceaux du ciel tombent sur eux. Il y a en cela une preuve pour tout serviteur repentant.

34:10 (French) Nous avons certes accordé une grâce à David de notre part. O montagnes et oiseaux, répétez avec lui (les louanges d'Allah). Et pour lui, Nous avons amolli le fer.

34:11 (French) (en lui disant): "Fabrique des cottes de mailles complètes et mesure bien les mailles". Et faites le bien. Je suis Clairvoyant sur ce que vous faites.

34:12 (French) Et à Salomon (Nous avons assujetti) le vent, dont le parcours du matin équivaut à un mois (de marche) et le parcours du soir, un mois aussi. Et pour lui nous avons fait couler la source de cuivre. Et parmi les djinns il y en a qui travaillaient sous ses ordres, par permission de son Seigneur. Quiconque d'entre eux, cependant, déviait de Notre ordre, Nous lui faisions goûter le châtiment de la fournaise.

34:13 (French) Ils exécutaient pour lui ce qu'il voulait: sanctuaires, statues, plateaux comme des bassin et marmites bien ancrées. "O famille de David, oeuvrez par gratitude", alors qu'il y a peu de Mes serviteurs qui sont reconnaissants.

34:14 (French) Puis, quand Nous décidâmes sa mort, il n'y eut pour les avertir de sa mort que "la bête de terre", qui rongea sa canne. Puis lorsqu'il s'écroula, il apparut de toute évidence aux djinns que s'ils savaient vraiment l'inconnu, ils ne seraient pas restés dans le supplice humiliant [de la servitude].

34:15 (French) Il y avait assurément, pour la tribu de Saba un Signe dans leurs habitats; deux jardin, l'un à droit et l'autre à gauche. "Mangez de ce que votre Seigneur vous a attribué, et soyez Lui reconnaissants: une bonne contrée et un Seigneur Pardonneur".
Now to use Trusty Google and see how badly it messes the French up in English

34:1 (French) Praise be to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. And praise be to Him in the Hereafter. And He is the Wise, the Aware.

34:2 (French) He knows who goes into the earth and leaving, which comes down from heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.

34:3 (French) Those who disbelieve say: "The Hour will not we." Say: "By my Lord, but it will come to you [my Lord] the Knower of the Unseen Nothing from Him about the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth, and nothing n... 'is smaller or larger, which is in a clear Book.

34:4 (French) That He may reward those who believe and do good works. For them, there will be forgiveness and a generous donation.

34:5 (French) And those who strive hard in opposing Our revelations, those will be the punishment of a painful torment.

34:6 (French) And those to whom knowledge has come see that you sent down from thy Lord is the truth that guides the path of the Mighty, the Praised.

34:7 (French) And those who disbelieve say: "we will show you a man who will tell you, when you will be completely disintegrated, you reparaîtrez undoubtedly, a new creation you want?

34:8 (French) he invents a lie against Allah? or is he crazy? "[No], but those who believe not in the Hereafter are in torment and far error.

34:9 (French) Do they not see that there are so sky and the ground in front of and behind them? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them, or that the sky to fall on them. There is a sign in this for every penitent.

34:10 (French) We certainly gave David grace from us. O mountains and birds, echo him (praise of Allah). And for him, We have made the iron.

34:11 (French) (saying): "Make coats of mail and measure mesh well." And do good. I am Seer of what you do.

34:12 (French) And to Solomon (We subjected) the wind, the journey in the morning to one month (walk) and the path of the night, a month too. And to him we spilled the copper source. And among the jinn there were those who worked under him by permission of his Lord. If any of them turned aside from Our command, We made him taste the punishment of burning.

34:13 (French) They made for him what he wanted shrines, statues, plates such as troughs and cooking-pots. "O family of David, by Act according gratitude," when there was few of My servants are grateful.

34:14 (French) Then, when We decreed his death, nothing showed them his death as "the beast of earth" that ate away his cane. Then when he fell, he saw clearly the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating torment [the easement].

34:15 (French) There was certainly the tribe of Saba a sign in their habitats; two gardens on the right and the other left. "Eat of what your Lord has given you, and be grateful to Him: a good land and a Forgiving Lord."
 
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Salaam Alaikum, WoodrowX.

Thank you for your quick and thoughtful response.


How is it different, and why does it matter?

"Salihan" means "righteousness".

34:11 (Y. Ali) (Commanding), "Make thou coats of mail, balancing well the rings of chain armour, and work ye righteousness; for be sure I see (clearly) all that ye do."

34:11 (Picktall) Saying: Make thou long coats of mail and measure the links (thereof). And do ye right. Lo! I am Seer of what ye do.

34:11 (Asad) [and inspired him thus:] “Do good deeds lavishly, without stint, and give deep thought to their steady flow.” And [thus should you all, O believers,] do righteous deeds: for, verily, I see all that you do!

I was not discussing righteousness, but the concept of chain mail.

In Google Translate, the word "sardi"... or links, as per Corpus Quran... is translated as

Translations of سرد

noun

narrative
سرد, قصة, حكاية


enumeration
تعداد, عد, سرد, قائمة, حساب


record
تسجيل, سجل, محضر, رقم قياسي, تدوين, سرد


recital
تلاوة, سرد, إلقاء كلمة, عرض, حفلة موسيقية فردية, عزف موسيقي منفرد

recitation
تلاوة, سرد, إنشاد, إلقاء كلمة, سرد حساب, رواية


rehearsal
بروفة, إعادة, سرد, مراجعة, تكرير, شىء يسرد من جديد


relation
علاقة, صلة, رابطة, نسب, حكاية, سرد


According to Babylon, it is means


enumerate, retail, recite, recount

"Coats of Mail" is translated in Google Translate as "Sabgat", and in Babylon as "ample piety".


Captain Kirk, no we don't.

We aren't debating over what the word "salihan" means. We are discussing the Quran's description of the coat of mail that God allegedly taught King David to make.



I'm afraid that the evidence you have presented does not do much to defend the Assad translation.

Firstly, "salihan" means "righteousness", and all three translations we looked at agree on the word.


Secondly, the words "sardi" and "sabighatin" do not translate, according to Google Translate or Babylon, into neither "coats of mail" or "links"... nor into anything similar to:

Do good deeds lavishly, without stint, and give deep thought to their steady flow.

So we are neither Google Translate or Babylon help make the case for either translation.

So let's look at what the medieval tafsir writers wrote- they not only lived closer to the time of Muhammad, but they also were all Arabs and had a better knowledge of classical Arabic than either you or I or anyone else on this forum.

Let's look at 34:11 as seen by tafsir Ibn Abbas, tafsir Al Jalalayn, and tafsir Al Qathir. We know that Tafsir Ibn Abbas was collected in the 9th century, and is a collection of both Abbas' writings and that of Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub al-Firuzabadi. The authorship is a bit uncertain, according to altafsir.com

Altafsir.com – Tafsir Ibn-'Abbas - ÊÝÓíÑ ÇÈä ÚÈÇÓ

Tafsir Al Jalalayn was composed in 1459 and 1505, by Jalal al-Din al-Mahalli and Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti. Unlike tafsir Ibn Abbas, the authorship is known. However, it was written at a much later date.

Altafsir.com – Tafsir al-Jalalayn - ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáÌáÇáíä


Tafsir Ibn Qathir was composed in the 14th century by Ismail Ibn Qathir. It is based on the works of Al-Tabari, who lived in the 9th century.

Tabari (name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So let's dive in.

According to Tafsir Ibn Abbas, the verse states:

(Saying: Make thou long coats of mail and measure the links (thereof)) the measure of a nail such that it is neither bigger nor smaller than it. (And do ye right) sincerely to Him. (Lo! I am Seer) Aware (of what ye do) of good or evil.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

So the authors of Tafsir Ibn Abbas wrote that the links are the size of a nail. The words "coats of mail" and "links" are used, not the words that Muhammad Assad used.

According to Tafsir Al Jalalayn, the verse states:

And We said: ‘Fashion, from it, long coats of mail — complete suits of armour which the person wearing it drags behind him along the ground — and measure [well] the links’, that is, in the weaving of the coats (the maker of these is called sarrād). In other words, make them so that the rings thereof are arranged properly. And act, O family of David, together with him, righteously. Indeed I am Seer of what you do, and will requite you for it accordingly.

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

So we see that according to the Al Jalalayns, rings were arranged in the coats of mail- which would be a perfect description of chain mail.

Let's see again Tafsir Ibn Qathir.

Saying: Make you perfect coats of mail... , which means chain mail. Qata0dah said, He was the first person ever to make chain mail؛ before that, they used to wear plated armor.
(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) This is how Allah taught His Prophet Dawud, peace be upon him, to make coats of mail. Mujahid said concerning the Ayah:
(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) "Do not make the rivets too loose that the rings (of chain mail) will shake, or make them too tight that they will not be able to move at all, but make it just right.'' `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that `Ibn `Abbas said, "Sard refers to a ring of iron.'' Some of them said, "Chain mail is called Masrud if it is held together with rivets.''


Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Favors which Allah bestowed upon Dawud


We know already that Ibn Qathir believed that the Quran's author was referring to chain mail... but notice that he does not only provide his opinion on this.


He writes:

Qata0dah said, He was the first person ever to make chain mail؛ before that, they used to wear plated armor.


Qatadah ibn al-Numan was one of the companions of Muhammad. He clearly believed that the verse was about chain mail, and went as far to as differentiate between it and plated armour, which is what the Assyrians used to wear.



Qatada ibn al-Nu'man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Mujahid said concerning the Ayah:(and balance well the rings of chain armor ﴿Sard﴾,) "Do not make the rivets too loose that the rings (of chain mail) will shake, or make them too tight that they will not be able to move at all, but make it just right.''


Mujahid Ibn Jabrir lived a century after Muhammad, and wrote the first tafsir of the Quran. He also believed that the verse was a reference to chain armor.


Mujahid ibn Jabr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now for the important quote, which I think demonstrates what 'sard' meant.


`Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that `Ibn `Abbas said, "Sard refers to a ring of iron.''

Ibn Abbas was one of Muhammad's companions, until Muhammad passed away when Abbas was thirteen. He knew both the Quran and Muhammad's sayings very well.
SunnahOnline.com - 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas

He also, as we see, believed that the coats were comprised of "rings of iron"- which could only be a reference to chain mail.

Neither Ibn Qathir, the people he cited, or the Al Jalalayns ever read the KJV, yet they came to the same conclusions that Yusuf Ali and Pickthal did. Google Translate and Babylon don't help either your case or mine.


Corpus Quran translates it as links of armor. Google Translate and Babylon translate it as "recite" or "record". The Al Jalalayns as well as Ibn Qathir- and Qatadah and Ibn Abbas- who were Muhammad's companions- made it clear that the verse is talking about chain mail.

There is far more evidence from early Muslim sources that the Quran is referring to chain-mail than any kind of armour, or for the meaning that Muhammad Asad gives.

This is a great discussion. I hope you weren't offended by my "Captain Kirk" comment. It was meant in good fun, like I assume your Apollo 13 quote was. Hope I didn't come across as insulting in anything I wrote, actually.

No worry about "Captain Kirk" I'm a Trekkie

The Abbas tafsir actually contains little Tafsir. It is basically an early written Qur'an without commentary. reding it, it looks like the transltors simply used Pickthalls transltion of each surah.

One problem is it has only been in very recent times that that any Hadith or any classic Tafsir have been translated into English. There really are no options of being able to compare Translations.

There is one modern day Scholar that did his tafsfir in English.Unfortunately it has problems. It is not available online and a hard copy is very expensive.In addition the Scholar is Wahhabbi and his Tafsir is strongly biased towards the Salafi view.

I did find a listing of moderns Tafsir. There are only 8

Looks like some may be available online

English









The Maariful Qur'an can be downloaded in PDF format for free (8 volumes)
at Maariful Quran by Mufti Shafi Usmani

I'm fixing to down load it I'll comment on it later
 
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TG123

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Yes the Ross translation is biased and based on translating from French to English. Virtually all of the Translatios from him to Pickthal had similar Problems
The difficulty with the major Tafsir and the Ahadith is they are written in Arabic. And you run into the same translation difficulties.

What would be interesting is to Take a modern French translation of Surah 34 And use Google to translate that to English. My French is limited to High School French and South Lowuisiana Cajun. But for the heck of it Here is Surah 34 1-15 in French

Now to use Trusty Google and see how badly it messes the French up in English
LOL oh Google Translate. I have to say it has gotten better though over time.

Still, if we look at 34:11, we get this:

34:11 (French) (saying): "Make coats of mail and measure mesh well." And do good. I am Seer of what you do.

Plated armour did not have "mesh". Chain mail, on the other hand, does.

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[/FONT]http://www.ringmesh.com/
 
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TG123

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Thank you my friend for posting this, and for your honesty. Many people- Christians and Muslims alike- probably wouldn't have gone through with posting a source that disagreed with their statement. I have respect for you for doing that... well, I have had a lot of respect for you since we met on this forum.

You will notice that this commentary also is making reference to chain mail. We see reference to combining rings... which is an obvious component of chain mail, not plate armour.

I am wondering whether there is access online to tafsirs written in the middle ages, like those from the time of Ibn Qathir or even earlier. Would you know about some like this?
 
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WoodrowX2

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Thank you my friend for posting this, and for your honesty. Many people- Christians and Muslims alike- probably wouldn't have gone through with posting a source that disagreed with their statement. I have respect for you for doing that... well, I have had a lot of respect for you since we met on this forum.

You will notice that this commentary also is making reference to chain mail. We see reference to combining rings... which is an obvious component of chain mail, not plate armour.

I am wondering whether there is access online to tafsirs written in the middle ages, like those from the time of Ibn Qathir or even earlier. Would you know about some like this?

Not many Tafsir have been retained. One reason being is because we are not supposed to spread our own interpretations. When we give commentary we have to be certain to give reasons for our commentary. Give verifiable reasons we believe it to be valid and acknowledge we may be in error.

Each Muslim has the obligation to search all things. While it is permissible to use Tafsir as the opinion of the author, we must remember, it is not sacred writing and not the word of God(swt)

Keeping that in mind and know that until the development of photocopying, mechanical printing of Arabic was not possible. all books had to be hand copied. Many of the older Tafsir only existed in the hand written original made by the author. Once that was gone, it was gone.

Without going into detail of the difficulty in a mechanical printing: Nearly every letter has 3 different shapes depending on it's location in a word. The Pronunciation marks get even more complex and their location is based on the word.

Even with Qathir (ibn Kathir) we do not know how close to the original, today's copies are.

The Problem with the modern English language Tafsir, it might be based upon a translation, not the original Arabic.

Tafsir is a guide only and not an absolute as to what the interpretation is. Tafsir come and go, it seems everybody has an opinion.
 
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