1 Thess. 4:17 - The sole verse on the rapture in the entire Bible

Rev20

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And we Christians living now are waiting for what exactly?

What exactly are you expecting besides salvation? A flattering title, maybe?
.

Also how did He get out of Heaven,per the below verse

Acts 3:21King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What does that mean? Do you have even a clue what the "restitution of all things" means? It is doubtful since that word is not used anywhere else in the bible. Therefore you must be relying on an imaginary definition as the basis or your utter shock that I refuse to "tow the line."

The word restitution comes from another word, restore, that is used in this passage about John the Baptist:

"And his disciples asked [Jesus,] saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13 KJV

What exactly did John the Baptist mean by restore? The only thing I am aware of is the restoration of the truth that one is not a child of God by heritage or blood-line:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." -- Matt 3:7-10 KJV

But that still does not explain the word "restitution." Therefore, my recommendation is to avoid (like the plague) the theological arguments of those who claim to understand what Peter meant by the words "restitution of all things."

:)
 
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Rev20

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I was raised in that cult Darby! Well not exclusive brethren but my minister is X eclusive.

I am saddened to hear that. I hope you have not been brainwashed into believing that new-age doctrine is somehow superior to other doctrines, like this great author did at one time:

"It is mortifying to remember that I not only held and taught these novelties myself, but that I even enjoyed a complacent sense of superiority because thereof." Philip Mauro

:)
 
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Danoh

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If you are going to tell a story, at least get the facts straight.

You seem to be confused. What did Paul say based on the Greek?




Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.




Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.


Your doctrine only works by changing "so" which is an adverb of manner into "then" which is an adverb of time.

Your buddy Stam printed it that way in his book "Things That Differ".

In this case, the "thing that differs" is Stam's corruption of the text.

You and yours continue down the same wrong path even though you have been shown you are headed the wrong way by Paul's words in the Greek.



.

BAB2, my apology for the tough words, in advance..

2 Timothy 4:

2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

The only thing you continue to prove by the above continued assertion of yours as to "the Greek" is that you do not know how to properly study this issue out.

That is not how the Greek is to be used, but is when someone wants to assert their error through a fault in relaying on "the Greek" in an incorrect manner.

"The Greek" lends itself to the pick and choose of which definition better suits one's assertion.

As a result, that is not how String's Concordance is to be approached.

The correct approach is to use it as what its name implies - as a Concordance, and that, in a secondary nature, just behind "the Greek" definitions.

First, you get the overall context out of the way - you identify it. And, normally, some passages will identify what that context is.

And what I mean by overall context is actually a reference to overall scope but context has been twisted into meaning scope so I'll go with that for my purposes here.

Example - what is the overall scope/context of Matthew - identify that through passages that do exactly that, and keep that ever in mind as you study. This may result in further refining as other passages shed their contributing light as to what the actual overall scope/context is.

You apply that to the sense of any word or words, using Strong's Concordance as to where the same word is used elsewhere in the narrative - words that "concord," thus Strong's title.

Once you have that out of the way, then you go to the Greek - and nine times out of ten, you find that of the multiple senses of a given word that Strong found through this very means towards his Concordance's Dictionary at the back, the above process has already given you the proper one.

You find you are neither at the mercy of picking and choosing which is the proper "Greek" sense, but you are also forced to reckon with the sense all the above gave you - you find that you just can't pick and choose what ever sense your tradition causes you to want to pick and choose from.

And guess what the scope of Romans 11:23 and 26 are - a ton of passages promising Israel's redemption - Paul is not laying out a condition, he is reminding the Gentiles of God's promise to that nation - a promise of redemption that He promised; that He would one day enable those of that nation who turn back to Him during and through those events that passages like Malachi 3 and 4 repeat the prophecy of [which, as Daniel well knew as evidenced by the content of his prayer in Daniel 9 are based on Moses, so that Moses has to be studied out as to this].

No, BAB2, there is far more to Romans 11:26's "And so" then you have apparently studied out, no matter how you assert otherwise.

I've been at this some twenty-five years - in Scripture - not - books - about - and I still find THE BOOK further refining my understanding of theses issues.

In fact, that is the only reason I recommend Stam's "Things That Differ." Years in the Word confirmed both before and after I first read it that it is mostly sound, far and away more than most books out there.

I know that does not hold water with you. At this point, I could care less. I post this for those with ears to hear, as that appears to be one of our responsibilities.

As a result of all the above, personally, I do not see you as a Berean Too, yet, simply because all you post is the same old books based tradition that is read into the Word by so many from any camp do - including, I might add, many within Mid-Acts who spout Stam because they read one of his books and it made sense to them, in contrast to their having arrived at same from Scripture on their own, after having first, studied out Scripture Itself as to how It is to be studied out to begin with!

But, you go right ahead and lump all together; that is just the cognizant mis-fire of its practice forced on Scripture as some sort of one size fits all, at work once more.

Again, my apology for the tough words...

More importantly, what is your understanding of the gospel of the grace of God - do you believe a person can lose their salvation? Have you always or did you pick that up at some later point in your understanding? This distinction is important. The rest do not matter without this one. The best to you in this, Rom. 5:

8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
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ebedmelech

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I'm still trying to figure out how the word 'reap' has been replaced by the word 'rapture'.

But don't mind me. I'm just a silent observer and student.

Let me point out that not one week after becoming a Christian, the church I attended was teaching Revelation...and I kid you not, that the pastor (who was heavily a Scofield dispensationalist), taught Revelation 4:1 was the rapture:
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

I could remember wondering to myself "how can that be?"...^_^
 
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The 7th trumpet is when God had that
His wrath starts.


before this time
the nations are angry

Rev.7 is not part of the prior vision.

No the first trumpet is God wrath.

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Seals first


Trumpets
Vials which I think are the trumpets.
 
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Danoh

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Let me point out that not one week after becoming a Christian, the church I attended was teaching Revelation...and I kid you not, that the pastor (who was heavily a Scofield dispensationalist), taught Revelation 4:1 was the rapture:
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

I could remember wondering to myself "how can that be?"...^_^

Hah, the first time I attended a Mid-Acts assembly, they were studying Revelation. One of the things the pastor noted was that Revelation does not teach the Rapture anywhere in its chapters. I remember thinking "why would it be otherwise."

Later, I found out he had a habit of pointing such things out to newcomers, in case that had been their only visit. Lol, sometimes, this caused it to be...

And yet, you and I are normally far apart :D
 
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n2thelight

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Originally Posted by n2thelight
Also how did He get out of Heaven,per the below verse

Acts 3:21King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
What does that mean? Do you have even a clue what the "restitution of all things" means? It is doubtful since that word is not used anywhere else in the bible. Therefore you must be relying on an imaginary definition as the basis or your utter shock that I refuse to "tow the line."

The word restitution comes from another word, restore, that is used in this passage about John the Baptist:

"And his disciples asked [Jesus,] saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." -- Matt 17:10-13 KJV
What exactly did John the Baptist mean by restore? The only thing I am aware of is the restoration of the truth that one is not a child of God by heritage or blood-line:

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

Apocatastasis (/æpoʊkəˈtæstəsɨs/; from Greek: ἀποκατάστασις, also anglicized as apokatastasis) is reconstitution, restitution,[1] or restoration to the original or primordial condition.[2]
 
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ebedmelech

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Obviously there are some of you who because the following verse concerning the catching away of the church is found but one time in scripture, claim that it hold no water; therefore we should do one of three things, ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist, or tear it out of our Bible. One problems is, you ignore the simplicity of the text.

I am going to paraphrase the verse under discussion,

"For the Lord (Jesus) himself shall descend from heaven (the 3ed heaven to the 2ed or 3ed heaven) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (come up hither) and with the trumpet of God (the Father) and the dead in Christ (believers who died in Christ) shall rise (be resurrected with an incorruptible body) first;"

Then (a word of time) we (believers) which are alive and remain shall (absolute) be caught up (taken up, raptured, call it what you will) together with them (those who where resurrected) in the clouds = (clouds meaning the glory of God) to meet the Lord (be with Him) in the air (a location) and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

BUT; for those who do not believe, they will be crying, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction (7 years of tribulation) shall come upon them."

There is no mention here of the body of Christ after it is raptured returning to this earth, or running into the wilderness or any of that nonsense.

You can have the last word.

Phil LaSpino

Now go contrast that with Revelation 19:11 and vss following.
 
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Rev20

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I don't understand what you are saying. Strong's claims this definition:

#605 (ἀποκατάστασις) from 600 (ἀποκαθίστημι); reconstitution: — restitution.

#600 (ἀποκαθίστημι) from 575 (ἀπό) and 2525 (καθίστημι); to reconstitute (in health, home or organization): — restore (again).

#575 (ἀπό) a primary particle; “off,” i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative): — (x here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

#2525 (καθίστημι) from (2596) (κατά) and (2476) (i[sthmi); to place down (permanently), i.e. (figurative) to designate, constitute, convoy: — appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set.

#2596 (κατά) a primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [general, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): — about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) x alone, among, and, x apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), x aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, x more excellent, for, from...to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of),...by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, x mightily, more, x natural, of (up-) on (x part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) x own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), x uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

Notice that I have not completed the full "definition" of #605, but "retired" due to sheer frustration :)

Regarding the so-called millennium "reign," it began at the resurrection, and Christ reigns until the last enemy (death) is destroyed about the time of the final judgement. (Actually, that is a figure of speech. Christ is Lord, and He reigns forever.)

:)
 
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