A glimpse at our Eastern & Western Christian Churches

cradleGO

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You claimed that the Ukrainians entered into communion because of the incident you refer to, but in reality, it was limited to Western Ukrainians who were forcibly, by military force, to be clear, made to recognize the Pope as their Patriarchate, as part of the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (in which Ukrainians were furthermore very much second-class citizens).
So the Greek Catholic hierarchs were obedient to the coercion of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, long after the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth dissolved. Is that what you believe? It is as I say, not your tale.
 
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The Liturgist

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So the Greek Catholic hierarchs were obedient to the coercion of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, long after the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth dissolved. Is that what you believe? It is as I say, not your tale.

Obviously, after the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church was established, it was inevitable that some people would become attached to it, including its bishops, as a result of catechesis. Its just like what happened in Kerala: the Portuguese caused a Roman takeover of the Indian Orthodox, but only a portion of the people resisted, and thus the Syro Malabar Catholic Church continues to exist to this day despite the fact that the Portuguese have been gone for centuries. And there is also now a Malankara Catholic Church which uses the West Syriac Rite, which had been adopted by the Mar Thoma Christians who refused to accept Catholic control. The Roman Catholic Church is very good at engendering the creation of Eastern Catholic churches, as is witnessed by the fact that they have instantiated one for literally every Eastern and Oriental Orthodox church.
 
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The Liturgist

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That is not true. Show me where "full communion" is a thing. Churches are either in communion or they are not.
Those churches that did not accept the 4th Ecumenical Council - Chalcedon - need only to adopt its provisions. They don't even need to change their verbiage - my opinion - just issue the statement by their Synod/Assembly of Bishops/Faithful Assembly. Then after an investigation, and barring anything else, they will be accepted into Orthodoxy, I believe. Neither hard nor exotic.

Well that might be what you want to see, but the Antiochians and Alexandrian Greeks had other, more practical ideas. Specifically in the case of Antiochian-Syriac Orthodox relations, with the exception of the autonomous province of the AOCNA, they are now governed by this agreement:

A Synodal and Patriarchal Letter.

To All Our Children, Protected by God, of the Holy See of Antioch:

Beloved:

You must have heard of the continuous efforts for decades by our Church with the sister Syrian Orthodox Church to foster a better knowledge and understanding of both Churches, whether on the dogmatic or pastoral level. These attempts are nothing but a natural expression that the Orthodox Churches, and especially those within the Holy See of Antioch, are called to articulate the will of the Lord that all may be obey, just as the Son is One with the Heavenly Father (John 10:30).

It is our duty and that of our brothers in the Syrian Orthodox Church to witness to Christ in our Eastern region where He was born, preached, suffered, was buried and rose from the dead, ascended into Heaven, and sent down His Holy and Life Giving Spirit upon His holy Apostles.

All the meetings, the fellowship, the oral and written declarations meant that we belong to One Faith even though history had manifested our division more than the aspects of our unity.

All this has called upon our Holy Synod of Antioch to bear witness to the progress of our Church in the See of Antioch towards unity that preserves for each Church its authentic Oriental heritage whereby the one Antiochian Church benefits from its sister Church and is enriched in its traditions, literature and holy rituals.

Every endeavor and pursuit in the direction of the coming together of the two Churches is based on the conviction that this orientation is from the Holy Spirit, and it will give the Eastern Orthodox image more light and radiance, that it has lacked for centuries before.

Having recognized the efforts done in the direction of unity between the two Churches, and being convinced that this direction was inspired by the Holy Spirit and projects a radiant image of Eastern Christianity overshadowed during centuries, the Holy Synod of the Church of Antioch saw the need to give a concrete expression of the close fellowship between the two Churches, the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Eastern Orthodox for the edification of their faithful.

Thus, the following decisions were taken:

  1. We affirm the total and mutual respect of the spirituality, heritage and Holy Fathers of both Churches. The integrity of both the Byzantine and Syriac liturgies is to be preserved.
  2. The heritage of the Fathers in both Churches and their traditions as a whole should be integrated into Christian education curricula and theological studies. Exchanges of professors and students are to be enhanced.
  3. Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.
  4. Meetings between the two Churches, at the level of their Synods, according to the will of the two Churches, will be held whenever the need arises.
  5. Every Church will remain the reference and authority for its faithful, pertaining to matters of personal status (marriage, divorce, adoption, etc.).
  6. If bishops of the two Churches participate at a holy baptism or funeral service, the one belonging to the Church of the baptized or deceased will preside. In case of a holy matrimony service, the bishop of the bridegroom's Church will preside.
  7. The above mentioned is not applicable to the concelebration in the Divine Liturgy.
  8. What applies to bishops equally applies to the priests of both Churches.
  9. In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divine Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.
  10. If two priests of the two Churches happen to be in a locality where there is only one Church, they take turns in making use of its facilities.
  11. If a bishop from one Church and a priest from the sister Church happen to concelebrate a service, the first will preside even when it is the priest's parish.
  12. Ordinations into the holy orders are performed by the authorities of each Church for its own members. It would be advisable to invite the faithful of the sister Church to attend.
  13. Godfathers, godmothers (in baptism) and witnesses in holy matrimony can be chosen from the members of the sister Church.
  14. Both Churches will exchange visits and will co-operate in the various areas of social, cultural and educational work.
    We ask God's help to continue strengthening our relations with the sister Church, and with other Churches, so that we all become one community under one Shepherd.
Damascus
12 November 1991

Patriarch Ignatios IV
of the Greek Antiochian Church

Patriarch Ignatius Zakka Iwas
of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch

We saw the fruits of this agreement in effect during the Syrian Civil War, when all members of both churches, including members of the AOCNA, prayed for the return of Metropolitan Peter of Aleppo and Archbishop Gregory of Aleppo, who were abducted while traveling back to that city together from Lebanon (the car they were traveling in disappeared without a trace).
 
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cradleGO

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Well, actually, it is not the same process, in that the Church of Constantinople did not grant a tomos of autocephaly to various ancient churches which predate its existence, such as Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem and Cyprus, all of which have always been autocephalous (as was Rome, when it was in communion with us). Likewise, the OCA received its Tomos from the Moscow Patriarchate, but unfortunately the Patriarch of Constantinople still has not recognized its autocephaly, although fortunately that has not precluded its membership in SCOBA.

The fact that I did not mention the OCU was not an intentional omission, for I was not providing a complete list of autocephalous churches, and I believe I made that clear in the text. For example, I did not mention the Church of Cyprus. Obviously that was not an intentional omission; the autocephaly of the Church of Cyprus is thoroughly uncontroversial, but as it was I feel I mentioned too many churches, and the result was it looked like something of a laundry list; had I mentioned any more it would have been untenable.
Constantinople, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem are patriarchates - to me, the only valid patriarchates - and Cyprus is a special category, and deserves to be 5th in the diptychs of the Orthodox Church. And the Church of Constantinople did grant a Tomos of autocephaly to Kyiv in 2019.
The naming of the OCA was a ploy to undermine the authority of the EP in the New World. No reflection on the Faithful that attend. The OCA hierarchs have always been invited to pan-Orthodox meetings in the US.
An aside: When the war in Ukraine has been concluded, the Orthodox Church needs to have another Great Synod, that affirms the resolutions of the last synod, and re-orders the diptychs in strict date order - among other things.
 
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cradleGO

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Well that might be what you want to see, but the Antiochians and Alexandrian Greeks had other, more practical ideas. Specifically in the case of Antiochian-Syriac Orthodox relations, with the exception of the autonomous province of the AOCNA, they are now governed by this agreement:



We saw the fruits of this agreement in effect during the Syrian Civil War, when all members of both churches, including members of the AOCNA, prayed for the return of Metropolitan Peter of Aleppo and Archbishop Gregory of Aleppo, who were abducted while traveling back to that city together from Lebanon (the car they were traveling in disappeared without a trace).
The letter is an accommodation, no more, no less. It is how 2 Christian churches in a hostile land agree to deal with each other. There is not a whiff of "in communion" about it.
Now the Roman Catholic Church has worked out something with the oriental Assyrian Church of the East as to sacraments under certain circumstances. How it does this is a record setting Olympic event of theological gymnastics (that is, double talk). But the letter is no where near that.
 
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The Liturgist

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Now the Roman Catholic Church has worked out something with the oriental Assyrian Church of the East as to sacraments under certain circumstances.
1. The Church of the East is not Oriental Orthodox.
2. They practice semi-open communion (specifically, anyone who believes in the Real Presence can partake of the Eucharist at their liturgies).
3. Rome has granted a blanket authorization for Orthodox and Assyrians to receive sacraments in Catholic parishes, and for Roman Catholics to receive sacraments from them, in both cases this is obviously contingent on the Orthodox or Assyrians agreeing to it. In practice, since the Church of the East will communicate anyone who receives the Eucharist, they are the only Eastern church that will consistently give the Eucharist to Roman Catholics, but I don’t know if Assyrians are allowed by their own church to partake at Catholic churches.
 
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The Liturgist

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The letter is an accommodation, no more, no less. It is how 2 Christian churches in a hostile land agree to deal with each other. There is not a whiff of "in communion" about it.

The document doesn’t seem to agree with you. To wit:

  • We affirm the total and mutual respect of the spirituality, heritage and Holy Fathers of both Churches. The integrity of both the Byzantine and Syriac liturgies is to be preserved.
  • The heritage of the Fathers in both Churches and their traditions as a whole should be integrated into Christian education curricula and theological studies. Exchanges of professors and students are to be enhanced.
  • Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.
  • In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divine Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.
  • If a bishop from one Church and a priest from the sister Church happen to concelebrate a service, the first will preside even when it is the priest's parish.
  • Godfathers, godmothers (in baptism) and witnesses in holy matrimony can be chosen from the members of the sister Church.
Also, this was adopted in 1991, when conditions for Christians in Syria, Turkey and Iraq, where the two churches have overlapping jurisdiction, were a thousand times better than today. It was not really a “hostile land.” Since then, conditions in Lebanon, where the two also overlap, have possibly improved, but things are much much worse everywhere else.

Finally, this document applies to the diaspora everywhere except in the AOCNA, which is an autonomous church that until the death of St. Tikhon of Moscow, was actually part of the Russian Orthodox Church, initially under the leadership of St. Rafael of Brooklyn, which is why the AOCNA hymnal consists not just of Syro-Byzantine chant, but also of English translations of music shared with the OCA, ROCOR and the MP Diocese. The AOCNA has been autonomous since at least the reign of Metropolitan Anthony Bashir.

At any rate, the Antiochian Orthodox would not have entered into such an agreement with the Syriac Orthodox if they thought they were heretics, nor would the Alexandrian Greeks have done a similiar agreement with the Coptic Orthodox.

By your logic, the Antiochian Orthodox should have done a similar agreement with the Melkites, Maronites and Assyrians, but they did not.

I would argue that the remaining Eastern Orthodox community in Turkey would be much better off if a similar agreement was entered into between the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic Patriarchs of Constantinople, and with the Syriac Orthodox archbishop of the same city.
 
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cradleGO

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The document doesn’t seem to agree with you. To wit:

  • We affirm the total and mutual respect of the spirituality, heritage and Holy Fathers of both Churches. The integrity of both the Byzantine and Syriac liturgies is to be preserved.
  • The heritage of the Fathers in both Churches and their traditions as a whole should be integrated into Christian education curricula and theological studies. Exchanges of professors and students are to be enhanced.
  • Both Churches shall refrain from accepting any faithful from accepting any faithful from one Church into the membership of the other, irrespective of all motivations or reasons.
  • In localities where there is only one priest, from either Church, he will celebrate services for the faithful of both Churches, including the Divine Liturgy, pastoral duties, and holy matrimony. He will keep an independent record for each Church and transmit that of the sister Church to its authorities.
  • If a bishop from one Church and a priest from the sister Church happen to concelebrate a service, the first will preside even when it is the priest's parish.
  • Godfathers, godmothers (in baptism) and witnesses in holy matrimony can be chosen from the members of the sister Church.
Also, this was adopted in 1991, when conditions for Christians in Syria, Turkey and Iraq, where the two churches have overlapping jurisdiction, were a thousand times better than today. It was not really a “hostile land.” Since then, conditions in Lebanon, where the two also overlap, have possibly improved, but things are much much worse everywhere else.

Finally, this document applies to the diaspora everywhere except in the AOCNA, which is an autonomous church that until the death of St. Tikhon of Moscow, was actually part of the Russian Orthodox Church, initially under the leadership of St. Rafael of Brooklyn, which is why the AOCNA hymnal consists not just of Syro-Byzantine chant, but also of English translations of music shared with the OCA, ROCOR and the MP Diocese. The AOCNA has been autonomous since at least the reign of Metropolitan Anthony Bashir.

At any rate, the Antiochian Orthodox would not have entered into such an agreement with the Syriac Orthodox if they thought they were heretics, nor would the Alexandrian Greeks have done a similiar agreement with the Coptic Orthodox.

By your logic, the Antiochian Orthodox should have done a similar agreement with the Melkites, Maronites and Assyrians, but they did not.

I would argue that the remaining Eastern Orthodox community in Turkey would be much better off if a similar agreement was entered into between the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic Patriarchs of Constantinople, and with the Syriac Orthodox archbishop of the same city.
For all of that show me where there is a whiff of "in communion" in the document. You quoted the preamble which is high minded, but the actual numbered terms have nothing to do with "in communion". Nothing close to that.
 
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cradleGO

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1. The Church of the East is not Oriental Orthodox.
2. They practice semi-open communion (specifically, anyone who believes in the Real Presence can partake of the Eucharist at their liturgies).
3. Rome has granted a blanket authorization for Orthodox and Assyrians to receive sacraments in Catholic parishes, and for Roman Catholics to receive sacraments from them, in both cases this is obviously contingent on the Orthodox or Assyrians agreeing to it. In practice, since the Church of the East will communicate anyone who receives the Eucharist, they are the only Eastern church that will consistently give the Eucharist to Roman Catholics, but I don’t know if Assyrians are allowed by their own church to partake at Catholic churches.
The Assyrian Church of the East does not accept the 4th EC - Chalcedon. However it characterizes itself, and the nature(s) of Christ using their terms (there is a language element), the Assyrian Church of the East only needs to affirm its agreement with the work of the 4th EC and all is good.
Whatever the rationale of the Roman Catholics is regarding the Assyrian Church of the East, they have allied themselves with non-Chalcedonians.

For me, the problem appears to be that the Church took over 400 years to prepare a concise statement as to the nature of the Godhead. Some at that time did not accept it. Now, it seems that those same folks are saying, 'Yes, we actually agree with Chalcedon, but this is how we say it'. Or. 'it really means the same thing'. All they have to do is affirm the 4th EC. I think that would prime them to be brought into communion with the EO.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Assyrian Church of the East does not accept the 4th EC - Chalcedon. However it characterizes itself, and the nature(s) of Christ using their terms (there is a language element), the Assyrian Church of the East only needs to affirm its agreement with the work of the 4th EC and all is good.
Whatever the rationale of the Roman Catholics is regarding the Assyrian Church of the East, they have allied themselves with non-Chalcedonians.

For me, the problem appears to be that the Church took over 400 years to prepare a concise statement as to the nature of the Godhead. Some at that time did not accept it. Now, it seems that those same folks are saying, 'Yes, we actually agree with Chalcedon, but this is how we say it'. Or. 'it really means the same thing'. All they have to do is affirm the 4th EC. I think that would prime them to be brought into communion with the EO.

You’ve got the Church of the East (I use this name so as to refer to both the Assyrian and the Ancient Church of the East) confused with the Oriental Orthodox. The Church of the East used to reject the third Ecumenical Synod and practiced Nestorianism until the reign of Catholicos Mar Babai the Great. Thus, the Coptic Orthodox, who still suspect the Assyrians of Nestorianism befause among other things, they still venerate Nestorius, whereas the Coptic Orthodox is above all else the Church of St. Athanasius the Apostolic and Cyril the Great, and in antiquity rejected Chalcedon because they regard its wording as too close to Nestorius (and they had a point, and also there was the matter of Ibas, a known crypto-Nestorian agent provacateur, engineering the deposition of Pope Dioscorus, by framing him on false charges of Eutychianism), have blocked the accession of the Assyrian Church of the East to the Middle Eastern Council of Churches.

They also suspect the Church of the East of iconoclasm; this appears unwarranted if we go by the claims of their clergy that their lack of icons was due to Islamic desecrations of them, although it does not explain the absence of icons in the diaspora, and also considering the Antiochian, Armenian and Syriac Orthodox, and the Chaldean Catholics, with some difficulty, managed to keep iconography alive, it does not quite make sense.

Unlike the Church of Constantinople and certain other Chalcedonian jurisdictions, the Oriental Orthodox communion is unique in that it has never suffered from any of its member churches falling under the control of iconoclasts. They have always preserved the Holy Icons.

Aside from that, I really don’t care about your opinion of the Council of Chalcedon, since aside from being factually incorrect, it is also irrelevant to the contemporary and historic relations of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.
 
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The Liturgist

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For all of that show me where there is a whiff of "in communion" in the document. You quoted the preamble which is high minded, but the actual numbered terms have nothing to do with "in communion". Nothing close to that.

I did not quote the pre-amble; I quoted from the “numbered items”. Specifically articles 1, 2, 3, 9, 11 and 13.
 
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cradleGO

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I did not quote the pre-amble; I quoted from the “numbered items”. Specifically articles 1, 2, 3, 9, 11 and 13.
My mistake, but the objection remains: there is nothing of "in communion" about the letter, and specifically articles 1, 2, 3, 9, 11 and 13. As I said, it is an accommodation of 2 Christian churches in a hostile land.
Let me be clear: Those churches not accepting the 4th Ecumenical Council - Chalcedon - are not Orthodox and will not be Orthodox, and will not be tied to Orthodoxy.
 
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cradleGO

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You’ve got the Church of the East (I use this name so as to refer to both the Assyrian and the Ancient Church of the East) confused with the Oriental Orthodox. The Church of the East used to reject the third Ecumenical Synod and practiced Nestorianism until the reign of Catholicos Mar Babai the Great. Thus, the Coptic Orthodox, who still suspect the Assyrians of Nestorianism befause among other things, they still venerate Nestorius, whereas the Coptic Orthodox is above all else the Church of St. Athanasius the Apostolic and Cyril the Great, and in antiquity rejected Chalcedon because they regard its wording as too close to Nestorius (and they had a point, and also there was the matter of Ibas, a known crypto-Nestorian agent provacateur, engineering the deposition of Pope Dioscorus, by framing him on false charges of Eutychianism), have blocked the accession of the Assyrian Church of the East to the Middle Eastern Council of Churches.

They also suspect the Church of the East of iconoclasm; this appears unwarranted if we go by the claims of their clergy that their lack of icons was due to Islamic desecrations of them, although it does not explain the absence of icons in the diaspora, and also considering the Antiochian, Armenian and Syriac Orthodox, and the Chaldean Catholics, with some difficulty, managed to keep iconography alive, it does not quite make sense.

Unlike the Church of Constantinople and certain other Chalcedonian jurisdictions, the Oriental Orthodox communion is unique in that it has never suffered from any of its member churches falling under the control of iconoclasts. They have always preserved the Holy Icons.

Aside from that, I really don’t care about your opinion of the Council of Chalcedon, since aside from being factually incorrect, it is also irrelevant to the contemporary and historic relations of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.
However the Assyrian Church of the East chooses to characterize its beliefs, it is not Orthodox, nor is there any pretense to being allied to the Orthodox. And, the issue is the 4th EC. If one of the churches you mentioned didn't accept the 3rd EC, then that church is even further from Orthodoxy.
 
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The Liturgist

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However the Assyrian Church of the East chooses to characterize its beliefs, it is not Orthodox, nor is there any pretense to being allied to the Orthodox. And, the issue is the 4th EC. If one of the churches you mentioned didn't accept the 3rd EC, then that church is even further from Orthodoxy

Forgive me, but you seem to be confused about what I have and havenot said in the course of this thread. I have not referred to the Assyrian Church of the East as Orthodox, nor have I called for us to engage in full communion with them.

Although they have it should be stressed corrected their Christology, and did so in the sixth century, so it could be said they accept the fourth ecumenical council but not the third, which is obviously a problem. Actually, one reason why the Oriental Orthodox did not agree to Chalcedon was the praise heaped on it by crypto-Nestorians such as Ibas, and indeed Nestorius himself praised it in his somewhat pompous memoirs, the Bazaar of Heraclides, although I regard this praise as either based on ignorance of the actual contents of the council, or senility, or perhaps Nestorius was being disingenuous; I do not regard Nestorius with sympathy, given the very comfortable nature of his exile compared to that of St. John Chrysostom, who was death marched, or the Syriac Orthodox bishops who were imprisoned and murdered (except for Mor Ya’kub Bar Addai), or St. Maximos the Confessor, who had his tongue cut out, and died as a result, especially given that Nestorius reportedly used violence against those people who refused to deny that Our Glorious Lady and Ever Virgin Mary was Theotokos, and accept his misleading, crypto-antidicomarian term Christotokos.

However, regarding the Assyrian Church of the East, they did discard his Christology in favor of a Syriac translation of Chalcedonian Christology by Mar Babai the Great just over 1500 years ago, and as a matter of fact they were in intermittent communion with the Eastern Orthodox during the late first millennium, when they were regarded as “the Persian Church.” And this did not endear us to the Oriental Orthodox, who are, especially in the case of the Coptic Orthodox*, best described as the anti-Nestorian church, which I greatly admire, given that while Eutychian Monophysitism is dead, largely thanks to Coptic efforts to eradicate it in the 5th century, and its own degeneration into Tritheism in the 6th century under John Philoponus (Monophysites such as Eutyches, and their successors such as John Philoponus, were anathematized by the Oriental Orthodox, which disagrees that the human and divine natures of our Lord became merged or that the human nature dissolved into the divine nature, as Eutyches argued), whereas Nestorianism has made a major comeback among Protestants and Restorationist churches; if we were to do a poll I think as many as 20% of the members of CF.com might confess some form of Nestorian belief, because like Nestorius, they refuse to use the term “Theotokos” or to admit that Our Lady gave birth to God, and thus are forced to invent skewed theological systems as a result.

However, as I have indicated, it is not all bad as far as the Assyrian Church of the East is concerned, since they are no longer Christologically Nestorian, and indeed have not been for 1500 years, and their non-Nestorianism was further clarified by certain statements made by Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV in 1975, and what is more, we also now know, although some Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are in denial about this, that St. Isaac the Syrian, who is the last saint to be venerated by all four ancient communions (RC, EO, OO and the Assyrian and Ancient Churches of the East**)/, was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, and like St. Gregory of Nyssa, and most members of the Assyrian Church of the East in the late first millenium, believed in Apokatastasis, that is to say, that damnation was not permanent. The Assyrian church has since rejected this error.

I suspect you are confusing the Assyrian Church of the East with the Syriac Orthodox Church, since the two have partially overlapping jurisdiction (but not as overlapping as the Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochians), in that the Assyrians and Syriac Orthodox both operate in Iraq and in India. They also both worship using Classical Syriac, but that is also true of the Antiochian Orthodox and the Maronite Catholics (and also the Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholics and Malankara Catholics) who are Chalcedonian. But the similarities end there. The Assyrian church no longer has monasteries or any significant amount of iconography, and the Syriac Orthodox Church has both, in abundance, and also the Assyrians worship using the East Syriac liturgy, whereas the Syriac Orthodox worship using the ancient Antiochene liturgical rite, which is very similiar to the Byzantine liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox, which was primarily derived from Antiochene sources (specifically, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a minor variation on the ancient Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles; the Syriac Orthodox use both, and that of St. Basil, and also the Anaphora of St. James that many Orthodox churches use on October 23rd, and the Anaphora of St. Cyril, also known as the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which is occasionally used by the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and frequently used by the Coptic Orthodox.

The Syriac Orthodox also overlap much more with the Antiochians, in that the only territory where they operate and the Antiochians have no presence is the Holy Land (there is a Syriac-speaking population in Jerusalem, centered around the Monastery of St. Mark, which is the most likely location of the Cenacle, since the Crusader Church is more likely than not actually built over the Tomb of King David), and the Holy Sepulchre, and in Bethlehem, a similiar community centered around the Syriac Orthodox portion of the Church of the Nativity complex, St. Mary’s Church (the Syriac Orthodox are the only church to have their own private church located immediately next to the Church of the Nativity, although I believe they also use the larger Greco-Armenian church on occasions such as Christmas, as it accommodates more worshippers than their own church, and they do a liturgy with the Coptic Orthodox pilgrims). The Syriac Orthodox overlap with the Antiochians in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Eastern Turkey (in the area of Antakya, formerly Antioch) and presumably India, since Antiochian canonical territory is supposed to include all of Asia (although in practice other churches have not respected this, and there are very few Eastern Orthodox in India). Of these churches, only the Assyrians and the Oriental Orthodox Armenian Apostolic Church have any significant presence in Iran (Persia).


*This also applies to their daughter churches the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox (both of which were, as recently as a century ago, part of the Coptic Orthodox Church).

** The Ancient Church of the East separated from the Assyrian Church of the East in the 1960s over two issues: the discovery, by one of the bishops of the Church of the East that the hereditary Patrairchate that then existed was uncanonical; this became a non-issue with the assasination of Catholicos Mar Shimun XXIIII in 1974, who was the last hereditary Catholicos-Patriarch, and also the controversial decision by Mar Shimun XXIII to switch to the Gregorian calendar. However about 14 years ago the two churches announced plans to merge, although this hasn’t happened yet due to the ISIS war in Iraq and Syria and the deaths of Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV and more recently, Mar Addai II, who had been Catholicos of the Ancient Church of the East since it first separated.
 
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My mistake, but the objection remains: there is nothing of "in communion" about the letter, and specifically articles 1, 2, 3, 9, 11 and 13. As I said, it is an accommodation of 2 Christian churches in a hostile land.
Let me be clear: Those churches not accepting the 4th Ecumenical Council - Chalcedon - are not Orthodox and will not be Orthodox, and will not be tied to Orthodoxy.

Firstly, you are engaging in a strawman: I never claimed the churches were in full communion. They are however in limited communion, and the articles I linked to include provisions for the concelebration of the liturgy by the bishops of both churches, which would put them in full communion. It is only because churches like Constantinople (although Antioch severed communion with Constantinople back in 2014 or 2015), and perhaps churches who they have more important relations with, such as Georgia and possibly Jerusalem, whose relations with Antioch have recovered thanks to the efforts of the Moscow Patriarchate, and likewise on the Oriental Orthodox side, objections from the Ethiopian Orthodox, whose powerful monastic communities view the Eastern Orthodox as Nestorians (a mirror image of some of our Athonite monks who incorrectly categorize the Oriental Orthodox as Monophysites).

The Antiochian and Syriac Orthodox church have recognized each other’s teaching. One cannot, under any circumstance, convert from Antiochian to Syriac Orthodox or from Syriac Orthodox to Antiochian Orthodox. Members of either church can receive the sacraments in the other church as needed. Members of either church can serve as godparents to children from either church. It is not allowed for non-Orthodox to serve as godparents to the Orthodox.

Additionally, regarding the fourth ecumenical council, it is a non-issue, because the Christology of the Oriental Orthodox churches stresses, like our own, that the humanity and divinity of our Lord were united hypostatically in the Incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division. Further proof of Oriental Orthodox Christological Orthodoxy can be found in the fact that it was Mor Severus of Antioch who composed the Christological hymn par excellence, Ho Monogenes, and this hymn is sung at the beginning of every Syriac Orthodox liturgy. We sing it in a comparatively less noteworthy place, after the Second Antiphon. The story that Justinian composed it is patently false, since there is no Eastern Orthodox saint more despised among the Syriac Orthodox than Justinian; he initially pursued very friendly relations with the Syriac Orthodox and married one, Empress Theodora, and embraced the Theopaschite Christology of St. Severus. Later, he changed his mind, embraced the borderline-heretical system known as Apthartodocetism, and began arresting and executing Syriac Orthodox bishops; only Mor Jacob bar Addai was able to escape with the help of Empress Theodora. It was during the former period of friendliness, when Justinian personally anathematized Theodore of Mopsuestia and certain writings of Theodoret, that he also added Ho Monogenes to the Byzantine synaxis.

Now, some Armenians claim that Ho Monogenes was composed by St. Athanasius, but given its absence from fourth and fifth century liturgical manuscripts from the Church of Alexandria such as the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, I find this doubtful; the Armenians have a strong veneration for St. Athanasius, which is good, but they attribute everything to him, including their one remaining Anaphora, which is actually just an abbreviated version of the Anaphora of St. James. And their liturgy furthermore uses the Byzantine synaxis almost word for word, with Ho Monogenes appearing right after the Second Antiphon, just as in the Byzantine Rite.

The extremely high profile of the hymn in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and in liturgies derived from it rather is proof that it was, as the Syriac Orthodox claim, Mor Severus, who wrote it, particularly given the obvious Theopaschite perspective of the writer of Ho Monogenes.

By the way, I am going to loop our pious Oriental Orthodox friend @dzheremi into this conversation, since he is a member of the Oriental Orthodox church, and I feel that when people accuse the Oriental Orthodox of heterodoxy, while I should make every effort to defend them, I should also include an Oriental Orthodox Christian.

Of course I myself am extremely comfortable with the Oriental Orthodox and routinely visit their churches with the blessing of my confessor, who like me shares the view that the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox communions are both equally and entirely Orthodox (although I am not sure if I would say that about the Old Calendarists, given their inability to avoid internal schisms).
 
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dzheremi

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While I appreciate being summoned, I find there's really not much worth saying to someone who uncritically accepts and regurgitates Chalcedonian boilerplate against the Orthodox faith, like a dog returning to its vomit. It is enough for me that their allegations against us were dealt with definitively (synodically) as early as 475 at the Third Council of Ephesus, with hundreds of bishops attending under the presidency of HH Pope St. Timothy II, who as the direct successor of our teacher St. Dioscorus can be fairly and accurately said to be a chief exponent of the authentic tradition of our Church regarding its dealings with the Chalcedonians (as they are not alone in having evolved a kind of canned response to what 'the other side' is doing or saying or reportedly doing or saying in the centuries following the schism; see, e.g., Maged S.A. Mikhail's From Byzantine to Islamic Egypt for the explosion of some of those developed myths, particularly with regard to the persistent Hellenistic element in indigenous Egyptian Christianity, which of course long predates any schism). At this council, Eutyches was anathematized by name, together with all who share in his error, and all who share in the errors of Chalcedon and the Tome it very unwisely and without true guidance accepted as orthodox.
 
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cradleGO

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Firstly, you are engaging in a strawman: I never claimed the churches were in full communion. They are however in limited communion, and the articles I linked to include provisions for the concelebration of the liturgy by the bishops of both churches, which would put them in full communion. It is only because churches like Constantinople (although Antioch severed communion with Constantinople back in 2014 or 2015), and perhaps churches who they have more important relations with, such as Georgia and possibly Jerusalem, whose relations with Antioch have recovered thanks to the efforts of the Moscow Patriarchate, and likewise on the Oriental Orthodox side, objections from the Ethiopian Orthodox, whose powerful monastic communities view the Eastern Orthodox as Nestorians (a mirror image of some of our Athonite monks who incorrectly categorize the Oriental Orthodox as Monophysites).

The Antiochian and Syriac Orthodox church have recognized each other’s teaching. One cannot, under any circumstance, convert from Antiochian to Syriac Orthodox or from Syriac Orthodox to Antiochian Orthodox. Members of either church can receive the sacraments in the other church as needed. Members of either church can serve as godparents to children from either church. It is not allowed for non-Orthodox to serve as godparents to the Orthodox.

Additionally, regarding the fourth ecumenical council, it is a non-issue, because the Christology of the Oriental Orthodox churches stresses, like our own, that the humanity and divinity of our Lord were united hypostatically in the Incarnation without change, confusion, separation or division. Further proof of Oriental Orthodox Christological Orthodoxy can be found in the fact that it was Mor Severus of Antioch who composed the Christological hymn par excellence, Ho Monogenes, and this hymn is sung at the beginning of every Syriac Orthodox liturgy. We sing it in a comparatively less noteworthy place, after the Second Antiphon. The story that Justinian composed it is patently false, since there is no Eastern Orthodox saint more despised among the Syriac Orthodox than Justinian; he initially pursued very friendly relations with the Syriac Orthodox and married one, Empress Theodora, and embraced the Theopaschite Christology of St. Severus. Later, he changed his mind, embraced the borderline-heretical system known as Apthartodocetism, and began arresting and executing Syriac Orthodox bishops; only Mor Jacob bar Addai was able to escape with the help of Empress Theodora. It was during the former period of friendliness, when Justinian personally anathematized Theodore of Mopsuestia and certain writings of Theodoret, that he also added Ho Monogenes to the Byzantine synaxis.

Now, some Armenians claim that Ho Monogenes was composed by St. Athanasius, but given its absence from fourth and fifth century liturgical manuscripts from the Church of Alexandria such as the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, I find this doubtful; the Armenians have a strong veneration for St. Athanasius, which is good, but they attribute everything to him, including their one remaining Anaphora, which is actually just an abbreviated version of the Anaphora of St. James. And their liturgy furthermore uses the Byzantine synaxis almost word for word, with Ho Monogenes appearing right after the Second Antiphon, just as in the Byzantine Rite.

The extremely high profile of the hymn in the Syriac Orthodox liturgy and in liturgies derived from it rather is proof that it was, as the Syriac Orthodox claim, Mor Severus, who wrote it, particularly given the obvious Theopaschite perspective of the writer of Ho Monogenes.

By the way, I am going to loop our pious Oriental Orthodox friend @dzheremi into this conversation, since he is a member of the Oriental Orthodox church, and I feel that when people accuse the Oriental Orthodox of heterodoxy, while I should make every effort to defend them, I should also include an Oriental Orthodox Christian.

Of course I myself am extremely comfortable with the Oriental Orthodox and routinely visit their churches with the blessing of my confessor, who like me shares the view that the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox communions are both equally and entirely Orthodox (although I am not sure if I would say that about the Old Calendarists, given their inability to avoid internal schisms).
No. You have been the strawman presenter in this thread, not me.
And "limited communion" is meaningless. Either Churches are in communion or they are not. It is deceptive to state otherwise. And the only clear assurance that one community embraces the 4th Ecumenical Council provisions is to adopt it by whatever the method that all in that community will accept. They need to state their agreement with the 4th EC in an authoritative manner. Simple.
Saying this or that agrees with the 4th EC, even with multiple examples, is not authoritative. The best evidence that two Churches are not in communion is that they are not in communion. That is simple, too.
 
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cradleGO

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Forgive me, but you seem to be confused about what I have and havenot said in the course of this thread. I have not referred to the Assyrian Church of the East as Orthodox, nor have I called for us to engage in full communion with them.

Although they have it should be stressed corrected their Christology, and did so in the sixth century, so it could be said they accept the fourth ecumenical council but not the third, which is obviously a problem. Actually, one reason why the Oriental Orthodox did not agree to Chalcedon was the praise heaped on it by crypto-Nestorians such as Ibas, and indeed Nestorius himself praised it in his somewhat pompous memoirs, the Bazaar of Heraclides, although I regard this praise as either based on ignorance of the actual contents of the council, or senility, or perhaps Nestorius was being disingenuous; I do not regard Nestorius with sympathy, given the very comfortable nature of his exile compared to that of St. John Chrysostom, who was death marched, or the Syriac Orthodox bishops who were imprisoned and murdered (except for Mor Ya’kub Bar Addai), or St. Maximos the Confessor, who had his tongue cut out, and died as a result, especially given that Nestorius reportedly used violence against those people who refused to deny that Our Glorious Lady and Ever Virgin Mary was Theotokos, and accept his misleading, crypto-antidicomarian term Christotokos.

However, regarding the Assyrian Church of the East, they did discard his Christology in favor of a Syriac translation of Chalcedonian Christology by Mar Babai the Great just over 1500 years ago, and as a matter of fact they were in intermittent communion with the Eastern Orthodox during the late first millennium, when they were regarded as “the Persian Church.” And this did not endear us to the Oriental Orthodox, who are, especially in the case of the Coptic Orthodox*, best described as the anti-Nestorian church, which I greatly admire, given that while Eutychian Monophysitism is dead, largely thanks to Coptic efforts to eradicate it in the 5th century, and its own degeneration into Tritheism in the 6th century under John Philoponus (Monophysites such as Eutyches, and their successors such as John Philoponus, were anathematized by the Oriental Orthodox, which disagrees that the human and divine natures of our Lord became merged or that the human nature dissolved into the divine nature, as Eutyches argued), whereas Nestorianism has made a major comeback among Protestants and Restorationist churches; if we were to do a poll I think as many as 20% of the members of CF.com might confess some form of Nestorian belief, because like Nestorius, they refuse to use the term “Theotokos” or to admit that Our Lady gave birth to God, and thus are forced to invent skewed theological systems as a result.

However, as I have indicated, it is not all bad as far as the Assyrian Church of the East is concerned, since they are no longer Christologically Nestorian, and indeed have not been for 1500 years, and their non-Nestorianism was further clarified by certain statements made by Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV in 1975, and what is more, we also now know, although some Eastern and Oriental Orthodox are in denial about this, that St. Isaac the Syrian, who is the last saint to be venerated by all four ancient communions (RC, EO, OO and the Assyrian and Ancient Churches of the East**)/, was a member of the Assyrian Church of the East, and like St. Gregory of Nyssa, and most members of the Assyrian Church of the East in the late first millenium, believed in Apokatastasis, that is to say, that damnation was not permanent. The Assyrian church has since rejected this error.

I suspect you are confusing the Assyrian Church of the East with the Syriac Orthodox Church, since the two have partially overlapping jurisdiction (but not as overlapping as the Syriac Orthodox and the Antiochians), in that the Assyrians and Syriac Orthodox both operate in Iraq and in India. They also both worship using Classical Syriac, but that is also true of the Antiochian Orthodox and the Maronite Catholics (and also the Chaldean Catholics, Syriac Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholics and Malankara Catholics) who are Chalcedonian. But the similarities end there. The Assyrian church no longer has monasteries or any significant amount of iconography, and the Syriac Orthodox Church has both, in abundance, and also the Assyrians worship using the East Syriac liturgy, whereas the Syriac Orthodox worship using the ancient Antiochene liturgical rite, which is very similiar to the Byzantine liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox, which was primarily derived from Antiochene sources (specifically, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a minor variation on the ancient Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles; the Syriac Orthodox use both, and that of St. Basil, and also the Anaphora of St. James that many Orthodox churches use on October 23rd, and the Anaphora of St. Cyril, also known as the Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, which is occasionally used by the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and frequently used by the Coptic Orthodox.

The Syriac Orthodox also overlap much more with the Antiochians, in that the only territory where they operate and the Antiochians have no presence is the Holy Land (there is a Syriac-speaking population in Jerusalem, centered around the Monastery of St. Mark, which is the most likely location of the Cenacle, since the Crusader Church is more likely than not actually built over the Tomb of King David), and the Holy Sepulchre, and in Bethlehem, a similiar community centered around the Syriac Orthodox portion of the Church of the Nativity complex, St. Mary’s Church (the Syriac Orthodox are the only church to have their own private church located immediately next to the Church of the Nativity, although I believe they also use the larger Greco-Armenian church on occasions such as Christmas, as it accommodates more worshippers than their own church, and they do a liturgy with the Coptic Orthodox pilgrims). The Syriac Orthodox overlap with the Antiochians in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Eastern Turkey (in the area of Antakya, formerly Antioch) and presumably India, since Antiochian canonical territory is supposed to include all of Asia (although in practice other churches have not respected this, and there are very few Eastern Orthodox in India). Of these churches, only the Assyrians and the Oriental Orthodox Armenian Apostolic Church have any significant presence in Iran (Persia).


*This also applies to their daughter churches the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tewahedo Orthodox (both of which were, as recently as a century ago, part of the Coptic Orthodox Church).

** The Ancient Church of the East separated from the Assyrian Church of the East in the 1960s over two issues: the discovery, by one of the bishops of the Church of the East that the hereditary Patrairchate that then existed was uncanonical; this became a non-issue with the assasination of Catholicos Mar Shimun XXIIII in 1974, who was the last hereditary Catholicos-Patriarch, and also the controversial decision by Mar Shimun XXIII to switch to the Gregorian calendar. However about 14 years ago the two churches announced plans to merge, although this hasn’t happened yet due to the ISIS war in Iraq and Syria and the deaths of Catholicos Mar Dinkha IV and more recently, Mar Addai II, who had been Catholicos of the Ancient Church of the East since it first separated.
Can we agree that neither the Assyrian Church of the East nor the Syriac Orthodox Church are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox? If you agree, then let's end this here before you venture down another rabbit hole.
 
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Can we agree that neither the Assyrian Church of the East nor the Syriac Orthodox Church are in communion with the Eastern Orthodox? If you agree, then let's end this here before you venture down another rabbit hole.

Firstly, I never claimed the Assyrians are in communion with us at present, although it is the case we venerate one of their leading monks, St. Isaac the Syrian.

Beyond that, I am not in a position to answer that regarding the Syriac Orthodox until we define what constitutes Eastern Orthodoxy. For example, do you acknolwedge the autocephaly of the Orthodox Church in America? Do you regard Eastern Orthodoxy as defined by being in communion, directly or indirectly, with the Patriarchate of Constantinople? And if not, how do you define it?

This may seem irrelevant, but its not, since the answer to the question depends on the definition of Eastern Orthodox, particularly since Antioch severed communion with Constantinople approximately a decade ago, for deeply troubling reasons.
 
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