Romans 9 Unmaligned

Grip Docility

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Let's get right to it.

I speak the truth in Christ —I am not lying; my conscience is testifying to me with the Holy Spirit —
Romans 9:1 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:1 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul just made it clear he’s about to be painfully honest, and has bound his words to be judged by God, as He is holding himself in personal accountability of Preaching what he’s about to preach under God.

that I have intense sorrow and continual anguish in my heart.

For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Romans 9:2-5 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:2-5 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul’s heart hurts... why? In verse 2 he immediately reveals he is broken inside!

Verses 3-5 reveal why! Paul literally wishes he could revoke his salvation to give it to a group of people that apparently matter to him enormously. As Paul is speaking under oath of the Holy Spirit, he is revealing God’s heart, as well. This lines up with Christ’s words that close Matthew 23 with deep sorrow and lamenting, but show hope.

Also, we can be certain that Paul is speaking directly about a contrast between LITERAL GOSPEL REJECTING ISRAEL because in Verses 3-5, Paul is echoing Moses... Exodus 32:32 Now if You would only forgive their sin. But if not, please erase me from the book You have written.”

Who is making Paul sad? His brothers of “his own flesh and blood”... which is clearly a reference to his unbelieving Jewish brothers of the Broken off nature, of ... what Nation?

Israel as Paul calls these broken off Jews Israelites! Paul specifically notes that they are Israelites of the National Israel and goes on to specify that they are so by blood, DNA, Ancestral experience! Anyone who contests this is ignoring context...

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants. On the contrary, your offspring will be traced through Isaac.
Romans 9:6-7 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:6-7 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Jesus is the very “Word of God”, thus we now deduct that Paul is identifying the BOC. As Paul only refers to “Jerusalem Above” (IE the Jerusalem discussed in Revelation 21 that comes down), in reference to the BOC, we can conclude that Paul is now referring to the contrast of (Earthly Unbelieving Israel, with Heavenly Believing Israel)...

He then identifies this Body as not being of Abraham’s Descendants of Blood, but as the Offspring of Isaac, who is the Shadow of Christ, in the near Sacrifice account and the child of Promise!


That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring. For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.
Romans 9:8-9 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:8-9 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now Paul goes forward to affirm what I am saying in Exegesis, for verses 6-7

That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring.
Romans 9:8 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:8 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, Paul continues to affirm the existence of the Israel of God By physical descent... then contrasts it with the Children of Christ to be the Grafted in Children of Heavenly Jerusalem (Jerusalem Above).

For this is the statement of the promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son. And not only that, but also Rebekah received a promise when she became pregnant by one man, our ancestor Isaac.
Romans 9:9-10 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:9-10 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul again affirms the Promise of THE SON, through the shadow Promise of the Son that was to be Isaac, who then Married Rebekah, who then Had two Sons, who contended for the Birthright. (Jacob and Esau). We see this to this very day as the Unbelieving Jews and The BOC are contending for the birthright, of the same FATHER!

For though her sons had not been born yet or done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to election might stand— not from works but from the One who calls—she was told: The older will serve the younger.
Romans 9:11-12 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:11-12 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here Paul makes it clear by using the words that neither of Rebekah’s sons had lived yet by Righteousness or Unrighteousness, as they hadn’t been born yet, that a promise was to be fulfilled through Rebekah that would make the standing election of Jesus Christ to be born, and be Savior, through one of Rebekah’s sons, a clear promise affirmed!

Then Paul affirms Faith by emphasizing “Not from Works, but from the ONE WHO calls”, again affirming the entire matter to be hurtling towards Jesus Christ!

Paul then quotes that the Older will serve the younger. This now affirms that Israel would Serve the Body of Christ, to further God’s plan.

We can even see in scripture that Jacob and Esau parted ways, for quite a long time, as Jacob received the Birthright, though Younger, and yet, Jacob and Esau reunite in peace that blesses them both!


As it is written: I have loved Jacob, but I have hated Esau.
Romans 9:13 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:13 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

In Hebrew the word hate means to be wounded by or emotionally hurt by something, thus showing how Esau’s forsaking of his birthright for food, hurt God and Parallels how the BOC’s inheritance of the Birthright of the declaration of God’s Compassion and Love to all humanity hurt God, in that the leaders of National Israel forsook Jesus Christ, thus cutting them off from their birthright and having it bestowed on the younger brother, the BOC.

Let us not forget Genesis 33 where Jacob and Esau eventually meet up and reconcile! If it wasn’t important, it wouldn’t be in scripture.


What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:14-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:14-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here, Paul now poses the question if God is Unjust... which is quite a serious question!

He immediately affirms that God is not to reveal his stance, before anyone can say he inferred otherwise! This happens in preaching all the time!

A question is asked to prepare the hearer for the proper train of thought. How does Paul follow up the train of thought?

Upon Moses asking God to strike his name from the book of life if God doesn’t follow through with His promises to the Literal, Earthly Children of Israel, God replies as Paul quotes. Now we’re seeing Paul parallel with Moses in that he opens with a desire to nearly revoke his salvation so the Enemy of the Gospel Brethren of Jewish descent that he is hurting over, can have their salvation!
 
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Grip Docility

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So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
Romans 9:16-17 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:16-17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now we see that Paul affirms salvation comes by Gods complete work and depends on His consistent goodness, not our limited human reservoirs of patience and Love, nor our interpretation of God’s goodness.

He follows by showing that God raised Pharaoh to power for the purpose of displaying His goodness!

Pharaoh had 10 supernatural chances to “Change his mind” and align with the children of Israel. He will also be raised from the dead, per Revelation 20, with the rest of the “dead”, to see Who he was resisting!

Will Pharaoh desire to metaphorically Rule in Hell, rather than Serve in Heaven? We’ll have to wait for that cliffhanger!

So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”
Romans 9:18-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:18-20 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Only God knows the heart and thus only His final judgment is RIGHTEOUS! The Mercy of God disgusts and HARDENS the wicked, thus the peculiar Grace that divides humanity, even now, when offered by God, can either Soften Or Harden a man.

Then Paul follows through with God’s right to spell out that God can do as He pleases and we should question ourselves if we question His Mercy, by questioning God “why He acts as He acts upon humanity”.

Many will be hostile to God for giving them choice, choice that may lead to their eternal doom, but who are they who enjoyed life by the design of the Maker to question their Maker?

Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor?
Romans 9:21 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:21 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

When God, who gave life, choice and the universe itself to each human, who are they to question when the final judgment is rendered and some of the Unbelieving Dead are raised to find salvation, while others of the Unbelieving dead are raised to find eternal damnation?

And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
Romans 9:22 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:22 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

God has been patient with human rebellion for Millenia! When He has put up with the Hatred, Bitterness and Strife of mankind for so long... and for the specific purpose that He desired “None should be lost but all come to repentance”... thusly... we know when He sets up the final TEST and some are thrown to eternal Damnation, that He knows what He’s doing and has the right to do so! Cast those crowns at His Feet!!!

And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory — on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:23-24 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:23-24 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now Paul assures the Body of Christ that it has full place with God By binding God’s mercy to the Gentiles as Prophesied in the Old Testament! Paul is now blending Old Testament scripture fully with his words, being powerful with the Spirit of Christ, within him!

As He also says in Hosea: I will call Not My People, My People, and she who is Unloved, Beloved. And it will be in the place where they were told, you are not My people, there they will be called sons of the living God.
Romans 9:25-26 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:25-26 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, Paul uses Hosea to assure the People that they have place in God’s Love Story, and he reveals the cutting off of unbelieving Israel, followed through the reassurance of the grafting in of the Believing Gentiles and the Believing Israelite Jews to the Body of Christ.

But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; for the Lord will execute His sentence completely and decisively on the earth.
Romans 9:27-28 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:27-28 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here we have the prophet Isaiah being quoted and specifically citing the end times, by evoking the words, “though the number of Israel’s sons (Genetic reference to Jacob) is like the sand of the sea”, only the remnant will be saved. Immediately apocalyptic verbiage is evoked.

Arab nations are prolific with the genetic seed of Jacob. Many of the literal bloodline of Jacob have either been converted to a specific Ottoman Empire Religion, and integrated bloodline into those nations, or perpetuated Jewish tradition... or Converted to Christ, or insert other... but they remain to this day. When the word “remnant” is evoked, in conjunction with end-time verbiage, we instantly see the sands of the sea reference that binds to specific verses in Revelation. Now, the Remnant is represented in “Revelation 144,000”. But that’s a 12 X 12 reference of sorts... and we know Revelation uses symbolism, thus the number of remnant that come from the dead of the sea (of death) that will be like the sand the sea, will be astronomical!

So it comes to it... now it’s time to dig into Revelation...

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:1-3 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:1-3 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here we see that the commander of the Angelic Rebellion bound for 1000 years. Incase anyone forgot... this “Adversary” of God literally ENTERED into a man at the time Jesus walked the earth, specifically to rise up against “God’s Anointed Servant”. (Acts 10:38, John 13:37). We know that Satan didn’t realize he was playing right into God’s hands when he did so. (1 Corinthians 2:8)

Is this thousand years Amillennial, or yet to come ... Futurist?

The most honest theological answer is that we don’t really know for sure. Thus as these verses in conjunction to this are read, it’s best to look at both perspectives.

Because of Satan being cast to the earth after Christ’s ascension... (Revelation 12:5-9), we know that Satan was removed from Heaven at that specific point. Though much fringe theology attempts to relegate Satan to being cast from Heaven pre (Genesis 3), we have the book of Job to assure us he had full access to Heavenly Council during OT Times. We also know Satan was the one that exploited the presence of the law, before Jesus’ DBR. (Hebrews 2:14; 1 Corinthians 15:51-56)

The important thing to follow, now, is what Revelation 20 evokes in parallel with other Revelation passages.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years. When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:5-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:5-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

We see Paul evoke the Sands of the sea verbiage in Romans 9:27-28 in an identical way that binds to End Times, Biblical passages... and without a doubt, can now relate this to the post 1000 years Resurrection of the dead that are not in Christ.

How can I confidently say the dead raised that are not in Christ?

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:4-6 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:4-6 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

This binds to Christ’s promise here... (John 5:24)

We are now guaranteed that the Judgment of the great white Throne is reserved for those that die outside of faith in Christ. We also see, without a doubt, that this great white throne is a seat of judgment, not condemnation as some will be saved and others will be lost eternally.

Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:11-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

We can see that Revelation 20 has some overview characteristics that cause its passages to overlap.

The post Millennial events are all part of the Great White Throne, and as we are certain we spend our time with Christ, after our Believing death here on earth, we are almost forced into an A-Millennial view. (<~ @mister rogers ?) I could waffle and say that the idea we rest in the earth until the next resurrection could be valid but we have these verses (2 Corinthians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). This is how we know that the bodies being resurrected are not a reference to our state of being while dead, but the moment we will receive our resurrection bodies, as Jesus did on the THIRD DAY. Jesus also was alive apart from His body while in the tomb, because we have Peter tell us so. (1 Peter 3:18-19)... that’s right, if you read the verses from 1 Peter 3 you now know why this happened (Matthew 27:50-53)... while we’re at it... Who do you think did this? :D (Matthew 27:51)?

Okay... an entire, cross referenced scripture book could proof this, but I’ll leave it to the reader to seek out scripture and decide for themselves.

Wphewwwwwww!!!’ All that from two verses!!!

This is why Romans 9 to Romans 11 is a serious passage of scripture that gets blazed through to validate minor theologies, while it is a tie in of Gen - Rev!

And just as Isaiah predicted: If the Lord of Hosts had not left us offspring, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.
Romans 9:29 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:29 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, what do we see in Sodom and Gomorrah?

(Ezekiel 16:49-50)

But is it over for Sodom and Gomorrah?

(Matthew 10:15)

It’s not! There is still the day of Judgment, which hasn’t come yet and is collectively known to be a day of Judgment that will yield salvation or condemnation.

So we see that as surely as Believing Israel is now integrated into the Earthly BOC, and the Earthly BOC becomes part of the Heavenly Jerusalem, as each member “passes through the veil”... we also see that the Unbelieving of all time will come to one last time of Judgment.

Does God shoot first and ask questions later at time of Judgment?

(Jonah 3:10)

What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness—namely the righteousness that comes from faith.

Paul sets up a complex rhetoric to evaluate what has come to pass, post DBR.

But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved the righteousness of the law.

He contrasts Israel of the Law, 430 years after Abraham and forward with The Gentile BOC.

Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Romans 9:30-32 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:30-32 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, Paul is asking if the Law Based Israel failed because they pursued God By Works of Law, verses the now Revealed path of Faith, while explaining Israel (Unbelieving) has stumbled over Jesus, and Fallen.

As it is written: Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over and a rock to trip over, yet the one who believes on Him will not be put to shame.
Romans 9:33 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:33 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul, now having reidentified, Believing Israel, Believing Gentiles and Unbelieving Israel that has stumbled over Jesus and is fallen/cut off are all subject to being without shame, if and when they maintain belief or relinquish unbelief!

Belief in what?

(John 5:39-40)
 
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BobRyan

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But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants. On the contrary, your offspring will be traced through Isaac.
Romans 9:6-7 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:6-7 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Jesus is the very “Word of God”, thus we now deduct that Paul is identifying the BOC.
Indeed in Rom 9 Paul appeals directly to the "children of the promise" - the saints in both OT and NT "the children of the promise" - children of the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12.

Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but the children of the promise are considered to be the offspring.

As you noted in your post
 
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He follows by showing that God raised Pharaoh to power for the purpose of displaying His goodness!

Pharaoh had 10 supernatural chances to “Change his mind” and align with the children of Israel. He will also be raised from the dead, per Revelation 20, with the rest of the “dead”, to see Who he was resisting!

Will Pharaoh desire to metaphorically Rule in Hell, rather than Serve in Heaven? We’ll have to wait for that cliffhanger!

So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”
Romans 9:18-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:18-20 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Only God knows the heart

Scripture says it BOTH ways
"Pharaoh hardened HIS heart" Ex 8:32
"God hardened Pharaoh's heart" Ex 9:12, Ex 7:13
"Pharaoh's heart was hardened" Ex 8:19

Eccl 8:11 11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

God hardens the heart of the wicked by delaying the full weight of judgment, in so doing their heart becomes more fully set to do evil - is hardened.

It is their own choice of course - but God is slowly warming the water for the frog - and it does not jump out.
It is not an arbitrary action of God to point them to do evil.

Mercy shown to a righteous man under conviction leads him to repent rather than to boldly go further into sin.


The Mercy of God disgusts and HARDENS the wicked, thus the peculiar Grace that divides humanity, even now, when offered by God, can either Soften Or Harden a man.
amen to that
 
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Grip Docility

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Scripture says it BOTH ways
"Pharaoh hardened HIS heart" Ex 8:32
"God hardened Pharaoh's heart" Ex 9:12, Ex 7:13
"Pharaoh's heart was hardened" Ex 8:19

Eccl 8:11 11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

God hardens the heart of the wicked by delaying the full weight of judgment, in so doing their heart becomes more fully set to do evil - is hardened.

It is their own choice of course - but God is slowly warming the water for the frog - and it does not jump out.
It is not an arbitrary action of God to point them to do evil.

Mercy shown to a righteous man under conviction leads him to repent rather than to boldly go further into sin.



amen to that
There are accounts where Satan does a thing and then God is attributed for it in the OT. (The Census and David) The key is in Job 2. In Job 2, we see this...

Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
In Esther... Haman is eventually titled "The Adversary of the King"..... which is to say Satan (A Type for).

Esther 7:6 Esther replied, “This wicked Haman is our adversary and our enemy.” Haman grew pale with fright before the king and queen.

This matters, because earlier, we see this verse in Esther...

Esther 3:10 10 The king removed his signet ring from his finger and gave it to Haman son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the enemy of the Jewish people.

Once this is understood, we begin to see that Satan was attempting to Mar God's character in the OT.
 
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now it’s time to dig into Revelation...

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:1-3 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:1-3 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here we see that the commander of the Angelic Rebellion bound for 1000 years.
yep - At the appearing of Christ event in Rev 19 - we find all the lost are destroyed 2 Thess 1:5-8 and the saints raptured as 1 Thess 4:13-18 reminds us - leaving only a desolate Earth as Jer 4:23-26 demonstrates.

Satan is thereby prohibited from tempting anyone at all

Then follows the 1000 years of Rev 20.
Is this thousand years Amillennial, or yet to come ... Futurist?
It is yet to come just as Rev 19 reminds us that the appearing of Christ with the armies of heaven -- is yet to come.
The most honest theological answer is that we don’t really know
We do know that there is not one place in scripture where "a thousand years" for something in human history past, present or future - is not a thousand years
Because of Satan being cast to the earth after Christ’s ascension... (Revelation 12:5-9),
did not happen 1000 years ago. Nor does Rev 12 say that this happened 1000 years ago or would only be 1000 years that Satan is on Earth.
we know that Satan was removed from Heaven at that specific point.
We know he was restricted - we don't know when the war was and we don't know the number of stages in that war where Satan is increasingly defeated. We do know from 2 Cor 4:4 that he is still "the god of this world" and that is long after the cross.
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years. When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
Yep, at the Rev 19 event the first resurrection happens as Rev 20 points out
and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:5-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:5-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
yes that is what happens after the 1000 years that follow the appearing of Christ mentioned in Rev 19 and Matt 24
Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:4-6 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:4-6 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
yes those are the saints of all ages - raised at Christ's Rev 19 apearing/rapture event
This binds to Christ’s promise
His promise in John 14:2-3 speaks of that very thing.
We are now guaranteed that the Judgment of the great white Throne is reserved for those that die outside of faith in Christ.
True - they are the lost. Those who have rejected the Gospel. Rev 20 shows that they are cast into the lake of fire by contrast to those in Rev 19 who are called "blessed and holy" since they are resurrected 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgement .
Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:11-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Rev 20:4-5 tells us "blessed and holy are the ones raised in the first resurrection".
No such blessing for those in the second one.

Two resurrections.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
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Grip Docility

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yep - At the appearing of Christ event in Rev 19 - we find all the lost are destroyed 2 Thess 1:5-8 and the saints raptured as 1 Thess 4:13-18 reminds us - leaving only a desolate Earth as Jer 4:23-26 demonstrates.

Satan is thereby prohibited from tempting anyone at all

Then follows the 1000 years of Rev 20.

It is yet to come just as Rev 19 reminds us that the appearing of Christ with the armies of heaven -- is yet to come.

We do know that there is not one place in scripture where "a thousand years" for something in human history past, present or future - is not a thousand years

did not happen 1000 years ago. Nor does Rev 12 say that this happened 1000 years ago or would only be 1000 years that Satan is on Earth.

We know he was restricted - we don't know when the war was and we don't know the number of stages in that war where Satan is increasingly defeated. We do know from 2 Cor 4:4 that he is still "the god of this world" and that is long after the cross.

Yep, at the Rev 19 event the first resurrection happens as Rev 20 points out

yes that is what happens after the 1000 years that follow the appearing of Christ mentioned in Rev 19 and Matt 24

yes those are the saints of all ages - raised at Christ's Rev 19 apearing/rapture event

His promise in John 14:2-3 speaks of that very thing.

True - they are the lost. Those who have rejected the Gospel. Rev 20 shows that they are cast into the lake of fire by contrast to those in Rev 19 who are called "blessed and holy" since they are resurrected 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgement .

Rev 20:4-5 tells us "blessed and holy are the ones raised in the first resurrection".
No such blessing for those in the second one.

Two resurrections.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is a complicated passage of scripture... and you have infused personal study and conclusion into your response. I respect you for this and deeply appreciate your sharing what the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ has impressed upon you. This was a wonderful and edifying read.

All Love to you Bob, Brother in the Name of The Greatest Military Tactician that has ever ... well, He's Pre-eminent and Pre-exsisting so... ug... you know.... Jesus :D
 
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So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason so that I may display My power in you and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
Romans 9:16-17 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:16-17 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now we see that Paul affirms salvation comes by Gods complete work and depends on His consistent goodness, not our limited human reservoirs of patience and Love, nor our interpretation of God’s goodness.

He follows by showing that God raised Pharaoh to power for the purpose of displaying His goodness!

Pharaoh had 10 supernatural chances to “Change his mind” and align with the children of Israel. He will also be raised from the dead, per Revelation 20, with the rest of the “dead”, to see Who he was resisting!

Will Pharaoh desire to metaphorically Rule in Hell, rather than Serve in Heaven? We’ll have to wait for that cliffhanger!
So then, He shows mercy to those He wants to, and He hardens those He wants to harden. You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?
But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?”
Romans 9:18-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:18-20 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Only God knows the heart and thus only His final judgment is RIGHTEOUS! The Mercy of God disgusts and HARDENS the wicked, thus the peculiar Grace that divides humanity, even now, when offered by God, can either Soften Or Harden a man.
Then Paul follows through with God’s right to spell out that God can do as He pleases and we should question ourselves if we question His Mercy, by questioning God “why He acts as He acts upon humanity”.
Many will be hostile to God for giving them choice, choice that may lead to their eternal doom, but who are they who enjoyed life by the design of the Maker to question their Maker?
That exegesis is "somewhat" lacking in intellectual honesty. . .

completely avoiding Paul's well-stated presentation of the absolutely sovereign freedom of God the potter in dealing differently with the same lump of clay (man), making some vessels for honorable use and some vessels for dishonorable use (human waste), and which sovereignty answers to no one, "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Ro 9:18-21)

Not intellectually honest. . .
What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness—namely the righteousness that comes from faith.
Paul sets up a complex rhetoric to evaluate what has come to pass, post DBR.
But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved the righteousness of the law.
He contrasts Israel of the Law, 430 years after Abraham and forward with The Gentile BOC.
Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Romans 9:30-32 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:30-32 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now, Paul is asking if the Law Based Israel failed because they pursued God By Works of Law, verses the now Revealed path of Faith, while explaining Israel (Unbelieving) has stumbled over Jesus, and Fallen.
As it is written: Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over and a rock to trip over, yet the one who believes on Him will not be put to shame.
Romans 9:33 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:33 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Paul, now having reidentified, Believing Israel, Believing Gentiles and Unbelieving Israel that has stumbled over Jesus and is fallen/cut off are all subject to being without shame, if and when they maintain belief or relinquish unbelief!

Belief in what?

(John 5:39-40)
Scripture--Moses' testimony about Jesus (Jn 5:37-38)--in Dt 19:17-19, Ge 3:15, etc.
 
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That exegesis is "somewhat" lacking in intellectual honesty. . .

completely avoiding Paul's well-stated presentation of the absolutely sovereign freedom of God the potter in dealing differently with the same lump of clay (man), making some vessels for honorable use and some vessels for dishonorable use (human waste), and which sovereignty answers to no one, "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Ro 9:18-21)

Not intellectually honest. . .


1) Scripture-- its testimony about Jesus (Jn 5:37-38), in Dt 19:17-19, Ge 3:5, etc.)
I don't use Calvin to understand Romans 9, who is enormously intellectually dishonest. I use scripture to understand scripture.

Is it not a charade of sorts if a hypothetical person were to demand that it be recognized that he uses scripture only, yet also uses extra biblical sources?
My extra-biblical commentary includes NT apostolic teaching.
Once upon a time, a sister in Christ insinuated that a man spoke with "somewhat of a lack of literacy". Oddly, I find that scripture reveals a thing.
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong;

Let us now be direct. A Frenchman once ripped 4 verses from scripture, ripped them from context, without their Exegetical roots... and built 4 thick volumes of Commentary. I find it intriguing that these very verses are the exact ones that Jehan utilized to define the Character of God and Belligerently and Forcefully argue with Reformists from his position of church authority to float his "Teachings, Prophecy, Revelation of Scripture".

Allow me to share Calvin's exegesis on these matters. Boy oh boy are there a bunch of words of opinion in between scripture quotations.
Verse 18
18.To whom he wills then he showeth mercy, etc. Here follows the conclusion of both parts; which can by no means be understood as being the language of any other but of the Apostle; for he immediately addresses an opponent, and adduces what might have been objected by an opposite party. There is therefore no doubt but that Paul, as we have already reminded you, speaks these things in his own person, namely, that God, according to his own will, favors with mercy them whom he pleases, and unsheathes the severity of his judgment against whomsoever it seemeth him good. That our mind may be satisfied with the difference which exists between the elect and the reprobate, and may not inquire for any cause higher than the divine will, his purpose was to convince us of this — that it seems good to God to illuminate some that they may be saved, and to blind others that they may perish: for we ought particularly to notice these words, to whom he wills, and, whom he wills: beyond this he allows us not to proceed.

But the word hardens, when applied to God in Scripture, means not only permission, (as some washy moderators would have it,) but also the operation of the wrath of God: for all those external things, which lead to the blinding of the reprobate, are the instruments of his wrath; and Satan himself, who works inwardly with great power, is so far his minister, that he acts not, but by his command. (301) Then that frivolous evasion, which the schoolmen have recourse to respecting foreknowledge, falls to the ground: for Paul teaches us, that the ruin of the wicked is not only foreseen by the Lord, but also ordained by his counsel and his will; and Solomon teaches as the same thing, — that not only the destruction of the wicked is foreknown, but that the wicked themselves have been created for this very end — that they may perish. (Proverbs 16:4.)

(301) Much has been unnecessarily written on this subject of hardening. Pharaoh is several times said to have hardened his own heart, and God is said also several times to have hardened him too. The Scripture in many instances makes no minute distinctions, for these may be easily gathered from the general tenor of its teaching. God is in his nature holy, and therefore hardening as his act cannot be sinful: and as he is holy, he hates sin and punishes it; and for this purpose he employs wicked men, and even Satan himself, as in the case of Ahab. As a punishment, he affords occasions and opportunities to the obstinate even to increase their sins, and thus in an indirect way hardens them in their rebellion and resistance to his will; and this was exactly the case with Pharaoh. This, as [Calvin ] says, was the operation or working of his wrath. The history of Pharaoh is a sufficient explanation of what is said here. He was a cruel tyrant and oppressor; and God in his first message to Moses said, “I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.” God might indeed have softened his heart and disposed him to allow them to depart: but it pleased him to act otherwise, and to manifest his power and his greatness in another way: so that “whom he wills, he favours, and whom he wills, he hardens;” and for reasons known only to himself.

Reference is at the end of this section made to Proverbs 16:4. The creation mentioned can be understood in no other sense than the continued exercise of divine power in bringing into existence human beings in their present fallen state. But “creation” is not the word used, nor is the passage correctly rendered. It is not ברא nor עשה, but פעל; and it is not a verb but a substantive. Literally rendered the passage is the following —

Every work of Jehovah is for its (or, his) purpose,
And even the wicked is for the day of calamity.

The Rev. [G. Holden ] is very indignant that this text has been applied to support the doctrine of reprobation. Be it, that it has been misapplied; yet the doctrine does not thereby fall to the ground. If Paul does not maintain it in this chapter and in other passages, we must hold that words have no meaning. The history of God’s providence is an obvious confirmation of the same awful truth. — Ed.

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Verse 19
19.Thou wilt then say, etc. Here indeed the flesh especially storms, that is, when it hears that they who perish have been destined by the will of God to destruction. Hence the Apostle adopts again the words of an opponent; for he saw that the mouths of the ungodly could not be restrained from boldly clamouring against the righteousness of God: and he very fitly expresses their mind; for being not content with defending themselves, they make God guilty instead of themselves; and then, after having devolved on him the blame of their own condemnation, they become indignant against his great power. (302) They are indeed constrained to yield; but they storm, because they cannot resist; and ascribing dominion to him, they in a manner charge him with tyranny. In the same manner the Sophists in their schools foolishly dispute on what they call his absolute justice, as though forgetful of his own righteousness, he would try the power of his authority by throwing all things into confusion. Thus then speak the ungodly in this passage, — “What cause has he to be angry with us? Since he has formed us such as we are, since he leads us at his will where he pleases, what else does he in destroying us but punish his own work in us? For it is not in our power to contend with him; how much soever we may resist, he will yet have the upper hand. Then unjust will be his judgment, if he condemns us; and unrestrainable is the power which he now employs towards us.” What does Paul say to these things?

(302) The clause rendered by [Calvin ] , “ Quid adhuc conqueritur — why does he yet complain?” is rendered by [Beza ] , “ quid adhuc suecenset — why is he yet angry?” Our common version is the best, and is followed by [Doddridge ] , [Macknight ] , and [Stuart ] Theγὰρ, in the next clause, is omitted by [Calvin ] , but [Griesbach ] says that it ought to be retained. — Ed.

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Verse 20
20.But, O man! who art thou? etc. (303) As it is a participle in Greek, we may read what follows in the present tense, who disputest, or contendest, or strivest in opposition to God; for it is expressed in Greek according to this meaning, — “Who art thou who enterest into a dispute with God?” But there is not much difference in the sense. (304) In this first answer, he does nothing else but beat down impious blasphemy by an argument taken from the condition of man: he will presently subjoin another, by which he will clear the righteousness of God from all blame.

It is indeed evident that no cause is adduced higher than the will of God. Since there was a ready answer, that the difference depends on just reasons, why did not Paul adopt such a brief reply? But he placed the will of God in the highest rank for this reason, — that it alone may suffice us for all other causes. No doubt, if the objection had been false, that God according to his own will rejects those whom he honors not with his favor, and chooses those whom he gratuitously loves, a refutation would not have been neglected by Paul. The ungodly object and say, that men are exempted from blame, if the will of God holds the first place in their salvation, or in their perdition. Does Paul deny this? Nay, by his answer he confirms it, that is, that God determines concerning men, as it seems good to him, and that, men in vain and madly rise up to contend with God; for he assigns, by his own right, whatever lot he pleases to what he forms.

But they who say that Paul, wanting reason, had recourse to reproof, cast a grievous calumny on the Holy Spirit: for the things calculated to vindicate God’s justice, and ready at hand, he was at first unwilling to adduce, for they could not have been comprehended; yea, he so modifies his second reason, that he does not undertake a full defence, but in such a manner as to give a sufficient demonstration of God’s justice, if it be considered by us with devout humility and reverence.

He reminds man of what is especially meet for him to remember, that is, of his own condition; as though he had said, — “Since thou art man, thou ownest thyself to be dust and ashes; why then doest thou contend with the Lord about that which thou art not able to understand?” In a word, the Apostle did not bring forward what might have been said, but what is suitable to our ignorance. Proud men clamour, because Paul, admitting that men are rejected or chosen by the secret counsel of God, alleges no cause; as though the Spirit of God were silent for want of reason, and not rather, that by his silence he reminds us, that a mystery which our minds cannot comprehend ought to be reverently adored, and that he thus checks the wantonness of human curiosity. Let us then know, that God does for no other reason refrain from speaking, but that he sees that we cannot contain his immense wisdom in our small measure; and thus regarding our weakness, he leads us to moderation and sobriety.

Does what is formed? etc. We see that Paul dwells continually on this, — that the will of God, though its reason is hid from us, is to be counted just; for he shows that he is deprived of his right, if he is not at liberty to determine what he sees meet concerning his creatures. This seems unpleasant to the ears of many. There are also those who pretend that God is exposed to great reproach were such a power ascribed to him, as though they in their fastidiousness were better divines than Paul, who has laid down this as the rule of humility to the faithful, that they are to admire the sovereignty of God, and not to estimate it by their own judgment.

But he represses this arrogance of contending with God by a most apt similitude, in which he seems to have alluded to Isaiah 45:9, rather than to Jeremiah 18:6; for nothing else is taught us by Jeremiah, than that Israel was in the hand of the Lord, so that he could for his sins wholly break him in pieces, as a potter the earthen vessel. But Isaiah ascends higher, “Woe to him,” he says, “who speaks against his maker;” that is, the pot that contends with the former of the clay; “shall the clay say to its former, what doest thou?” etc. And surely there is no reason for a mortal man to think himself better than earthen vessel, when he compares himself with God. We are not however to be over-particular in applying this testimony to our present subject, since Paul only meant to allude to the words of the Prophet, in order that the similitude might have more weight. (305)

(303) “But” is not sufficiently emphatical here; μενοῦνγε; “yes, verily,” in Romans 10:18; “yea, rather,” in Luke 11:28; “doubtless,” in Philippians 3:8; it may be rendered here, “nay, rather.” — Ed.

(304) “Quis es qui contendas judicio cum Deo;” τίς εἶ ὁ ἀνταποκρινόμενος τῳ Θεῳ “that repliest against God,” is the rendering of [Macknight ] and [Stuart ] ; “who enterest into a debate with God,” is what [Doddridge ] gives. The verb occurs once in another place, Luke 14:6, and “answer again” is our version. [Schleusner ] says thatἀντὶ prefixed to verbs is often redundant. In Job 16:8, this compound is used by the Septuagint simply in the sense of answering, for ענה He renders it here, “cure Deo altercari — to quarrel, or, dispute with God.” — Ed.

(305) The words in Romans 9:20 are taken almost literally from Isaiah 29:16, only the latter clause is somewhat different; the sentence is, “μὴ ἐρεῖ τὸ πλάσμα τῷ πλάσαντι αὐτὸ οὐ σύ με ἔπλασας — shall what is formed say to its former, Thou hast not formed me?” This is a faithful rendering of the Hebrew.

Then the words in Romans 9:21 are not verbally taken from either of the two places referred to above; but the simile is adopted. — Ed.

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Verse 21
21.Has not the worker of the clay? etc. The reason why what is formed ought not to contend with its former, is, that the former does nothing but what he has a right to do. By the word power, he means not that the maker has strength to do according to his will, but that this privilege rightly and justly belongs to him. For he intends not to claim for God any arbitrary power but what ought to be justly ascribed to him.

And further, bear this in mind, — that as the potter takes away nothing from the clay, whatever form he may give it; so God takes away nothing from man, in whatever condition he may create him. Only this is to be remembered, that God is deprived of a portion of his honor, except such an authority over men be conceded to him as to constitute him the arbitrator of life and death. (306)

(306) The metaphor in these verses is doubtless to be interpreted according to the context. Not only [Calvin ] , but many others, have deduced from it what is not consistent with what the next verse contains, which gives the necessary explanation. By the “mass” or the lump of clay, is not meant mankind, contemplated as creatures, but as fallen creatures; or, as [Augustine ] and [Pareus ] call them, “massa damnata — the condemned mass;” for they are called in the next verse vessels of wrath, that is, the objects of wrath; and such are all by nature, according to what Paul says in Ephesians 2:3; “we were,” he says, “by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

“The words, ‘I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,’ imply that all deserved wrath; so that the lump of clay in the hands of the potter must refer to men already existing in God’s foreknowledge as fallen creatures.” — [Scott ]

In all the instances in which this metaphor is used by Isaiah and Jeremiah, it is applied to the Jews in their state of degeneracy, and very pointedly in Isaiah 64:8: where it is preceded, in Isaiah 64:6, by that remarkable passage, “We are all as an unclean thing,” etc. The clay then, or the mass, is the mass of mankind as corrupted and depraved. — Ed.

Is it that I'm "intellectually dishonest", or that I didn't agree with J.C.'s exegetical summary that denies Jesus Christ's revelation that God Loves His Enemies and To Hate is A Sin? Is God a Hypocrite? Something isn't adding up. Do I follow J.C or J.C., Black letters in delicious leather binding or brutalized Red Letters written in the very Blood of God?

4 verses created an entire doctrine, while 5 verses destroy that doctrine if read in a scholarly manner of literacy, with intellectual honesty.

Paul, what did Jesus teach you?

15 He is the image of the invisible God,​
the firstborn over all creation.​
16 For everything was created by Him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things,
and by Him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church;
He is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that He might come to have
first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased to have
all His fullness dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile
everything to Himself
by making peace
through the blood of His cross[j]—
whether things on earth or things in heaven.
10000 upon 10000 words of a human theologian obliterated by 5 verses written by our Lord God, through the Apostle Paul. That sounds about right.
 
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That exegesis is "somewhat" lacking in intellectual honesty. . .

completely avoiding Paul's well-stated presentation of the absolutely sovereign freedom of God the potter in dealing differently with the same lump of clay (man), making some vessels for honorable use and some vessels for dishonorable use (human waste), and which sovereignty answers to no one, "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" (Ro 9:18-21)

Not intellectually honest. . .


1) Scripture-- its testimony about Jesus (Jn 5:37-38), in Dt 19:17-19, Ge 3:5, etc.)
Some seem to be upset by the idea that God has Mercy on people? I'm not sure. I saw a lot of Mercy getting highlighted in a recent post. Should I throw mercy out of Exegesis? I could have sword that this Jewish Carpenter "Tekton"... said something important about Mercy. I could be mistaken.
 
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I don't use Calvin to understand Romans 9, who is enormously intellectually dishonest.
Relevance?
I use scripture to understand scripture.

Is it not a charade of sorts if a hypothetical person were to demand that it be recognized that he uses scripture only, yet also uses extra biblical sources?
Strawman?

For your information, I formed my theology from Scripture before I ever knew of Calvin.
Once upon a time, a sister in Christ insinuated that a man spoke with "somewhat of a lack of literacy".
For heaven's sake. . .NO!

I was explaining my use of "do," as in "I don't do determinism."
Oddly, I find that scripture reveals a thing.
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise; God chose what the world considers weak in order to shame the strong;'
Referring to Christ's capture and death on the cross as a criminal.
Let us now be direct. A Frenchman once ripped 4 verses from scripture, ripped them from context, without their Exegetical roots... and built 4 thick volumes of Commentary. I find it intriguing that these very verses are the exact ones that Jehan utilized to define the Character of God and Belligerently and Forcefully argue with Reformists from his position of church authority to float his "Teachings, Prophecy, Revelation of Scripture".

Allow me to share Calvin's exegesis on these matters.
Why do you need Calvin's exegesis?
The Scriptural text is quite clear.
 
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I'm not familiar with anyone that denies God has Mercy on people.
Does God Love and Have Mercy on.... as much as the elect...

This question is framed within a French Theologians framework that is his well circulated personal interpretation of 4 verses in Romans 9.

Even his Reprobate enemies of Himself that He created for the sole purpose of eternal conscious torment, after a span less than 120 years(ish) on this earth ... or (Go easy on me, I wasn't there at the big inning) or 20,000ish or so years on this earth and Heaven....
 
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Relevance?
You adhere to Calvin's doctrines by nature of your citation of the 4 verses within Romans 9, perhaps by cooincidence.
Strawman?
Perhaps
For your information, I formed my theology from Scripture before I ever knew of Calvin.
I am glad you acknowledge that you know of him and understand you align with him naturally.
For heaven's sake. . .NO!

I was explaining my use of "do," as in "I don't do determinism."
Then I will refrain from being a horses patoot by bringing it up to be a pain. :)
Referring to Christ's capture and death on the cross as a criminal.
Is that all? Paul declares himself a fool. It also reminds me of a scrawny shepherd boy with a sling. I recall a Prophet cooking over his own poo.... Ewwwwww, gross. I remember a wooly headed Prophet that ate wild locusts and honey. I remember a poor carpenter born in a smelly Barn and destined to grow up in the Jewish ghetto. I recall.... well, you get the idea.
Why do you need Calvin's exegesis?
The Scriptural text is quite clear.
When you treat 1 Colossians 1:15-20 with sincere exegetical Love, binding it to it's intended verses... and respecting what the usages of pas so emphatically insinuate in an iron clad fashion, I will have faith in your interpretation of Romans 9.
 
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Does God Love and Have Mercy on.... as much as the elect...
God loves all mankind--witness his marvelous provision of this earth--but he does not love all mankind savingly.

He has eternal mercy on those whom he loves savingly.
 
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God loves all mankind--witness his marvelous provision of this earth--but he does not love all mankind savingly.

He has eternal mercy on those whom he loves savingly.
This is where my biggest contention with this idea is.... See... reform will say "God is no respecter of man"... but in the same breath... say.... God Hates the reprobate and misappropriate the Esau verses. They are a reference to Edom, which is not a person, but a nation. Also, in Hebrew, the word "Sane" doesn't actually mean "hate" like we use the word Hate or Jesus used the word "Hate" in Greek. In the Hebrew, it actually means something similar to being wounded to the point of withdraw.

Now, my positive response.... At least you said He loves all mankind. Personally it bothers me when the cross is reduced to 1 group verses another. I believe God does Love all with Saving Love. That's what it would mean to you if you didn't disagree on the word "pas". I do believe God allowed for rejection or response to His Love.

Thank you for your answer and discussion.
 
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Clare73

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This is where my biggest contention with this idea is.... See... reform will say "God is no respecter of man"... but in the same breath... say.... God Hates the reprobate and misappropriate the Esau verses. They are a reference to Edom, which is not a person, but a nation. Also, in Hebrew, the word "Sane" doesn't actually mean "hate" like we use the word Hate or Jesus used the word "Hate" in Greek. In the Hebrew, it actually means something similar to being wounded to the point of withdraw.

Now, my positive response.... At least you said He loves all mankind. Personally it bothers me when the cross is reduced to 1 group verses another. I believe God does Love all with Saving Love.
However, Jesus said otherwise Jn 3:18, "he who does not believe in him is condemned already."
That's what it would mean to you if you didn't disagree on the word "pas".
My theology is based in what Jesus said in Jn 3:18, "he who does not believe in him is condemned already."
And I understand all Scripture in that clear light.

There is no room for equivocation in Jn 3:18. . .only room for unbelief.
I do believe God allowed for rejection or response to His Love.
Then you likewise disagree with Jesus' apostle, Paul, in

Ro 8:7-8 - "the sinful (unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (all the unregenerate) cannot please God (including by believing in Jesus Christ, for the unregenerate cannot believe) Jn 3:3-5.

1 Co 2:14 -
"The man without the Spirit (the unregenerate) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them and they are foolishness to him."
 
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Grip Docility

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However, Jesus said otherwise Jn 3:18, "he who does not believe in him is condemned already."

My theology is based in what Jesus said in Jn 3:18, "he who does not believe in him is condemned already."
And I understand all Scripture in that clear light.

I see no room for equivocation in Jn 3:18. . .only room for unbelief.

Then you likewise disagree with Jesus' apostle, Paul, in

Ro 8:7-8 - "the sinful (unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature (all the unregenerate) cannot please God (including by believing in Jesus Christ)."

1 Co 2:14 -
"The man without the Spirit (the unregenerate) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for he cannot understand them and they are foolishness to him."
We were all bound up by the sin of unbelief, per scripture. The same mechanism that Saves sinners was applied to the Reprobate (Christ Rejecters) and the Saints (Christ Acceptors). This is God's mechanism of offering Salvation to The Entirety of ALL Creation, per Colossians 1:15-20.

Now, if Genesis 1:28 is ignored or disputed... in light of 1 Cor 15:55-56, Heb 2:14 and Romans 7:9

Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.
this makes no sense.

But, if it is accepted per the Hebrew, it makes sense.

That's my opinion on that matter.
 
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