Pennsylvania wastewater might provide 40% of US lithium needs.

Lukaris · May 12, 2024

While good news seems to sparse, it seems that lithium could be extracted from wastewater of shale drilling. Perhaps this could be the basis of a reasonable transition to the use of electric vehicles (EVs).There seem to be technical issues with EVs that need to be resolved and working people will need time to be able to afford EVs. Additionally, the likely reduction of having to mine for lithium should balance environmental concerns in the process.

Pennsylvania wastewater can meet 40% of US' lithium needs: Study

Researchers find that wastewater from Pennsylvania's Marcellus Shale gas wells could be a significant domestic source of lithium.

interestingengineering.com

AlexB23 · May 12, 2024

Lukaris said:
While good news seems to sparse, it seems that lithium could be extracted from wastewater of shale drilling. Perhaps this could be the basis of a reasonable transition to the use of electric vehicles (EVs).There seem to be technical issues with EVs that need to be resolved and working people will need time to be able to afford EVs. Additionally, the likely reduction of having to mine for lithium should balance environmental concerns in the process.

Pennsylvania wastewater can meet 40% of US' lithium needs: Study

Researchers find that wastewater from Pennsylvania's Marcellus Shale gas wells could be a significant domestic source of lithium.

interestingengineering.com

Well, shale drilling is still raping the earth, but hey, at least the waste water can be used for something. Maybe instead we can support environmentally sustainable policies, including reducing our plastic use, promoting proper recycling, invest in public transport & mixed-use urban developments, and minimize our consumption.

Electric Vehicles Are Not the Solution. Sustainable Transit Is.

In the past two years, the Biden Administration has enacted major policies to increase the adoption of electric vehicles (EVs) in the United States. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law allocates $7.5 billion to develop and improve domestic EV charging infrastructure and the Inflation Reduction Act...

chicagopolicyreview.org

Tuur · May 13, 2024

Lukaris said:
While good news seems to sparse, it seems that lithium could be extracted from wastewater of shale drilling. Perhaps this could be the basis of a reasonable transition to the use of electric vehicles (EVs).There seem to be technical issues with EVs that need to be resolved and working people will need time to be able to afford EVs. Additionally, the likely reduction of having to mine for lithium should balance environmental concerns in the process.

Pennsylvania wastewater can meet 40% of US' lithium needs: Study

Researchers find that wastewater from Pennsylvania's Marcellus Shale gas wells could be a significant domestic source of lithium.

interestingengineering.com

While it's good to see a US source for lithium, to transition to EV we need something with energy density approaching fuels and something safer. Just how problematic the current technology is didn't strike home until I saw discussions on the placement of battery energy storage facilities and the distance needed from residences in case something bad happened.

Just a gut feeling, but maybe there needs to be some kind of side-step, something that doesn't rely on existing tech or infrastructure. Maybe something chemical based. I have the feeling this may have already been theorized. Basically it would have to be an energy dense chemical that can be produced through electricity and can be "recharged" by simply refilling a tank and which combusts/decomposes into non-hazardous chemicals. Hydrogen has been looked at for this since at least the 1970s, but has some issues, but is a good example of what I'm talking about. Centralized locations could make large quantities of the chemical over time for distribution. Think of a water tank on a windmill: The take is both to provide pressure and a reservoir to get around fluctuations in wind. For the end user, it's just a matter of pour and go, like current fuels, without waiting for recharge time and without straining the grid.

AlexB23 · May 13, 2024

Tuur said:
While it's good to see a US source for lithium, to transition to EV we need something with energy density approaching fuels and something safer. Just how problematic the current technology is didn't strike home until I saw discussions on the placement of battery energy storage facilities and the distance needed from residences in case something bad happened.

Just a gut feeling, but maybe there needs to be some kind of side-step, something that doesn't rely on existing tech or infrastructure. Maybe something chemical based. I have the feeling this may have already been theorized. Basically it would have to be an energy dense chemical that can be produced through electricity and can be "recharged" by simply refilling a tank and which combusts/decomposes into non-hazardous chemicals. Hydrogen has been looked at for this since at least the 1970s, but has some issues, but is a good example of what I'm talking about. Centralized locations could make large quantities of the chemical over time for distribution. Think of a water tank on a windmill: The take is both to provide pressure and a reservoir to get around fluctuations in wind. For the end user, it's just a matter of pour and go, like current fuels, without waiting for recharge time and without straining the grid.

The Japanese got some stuff in mind, with solid-state batteries, but the tech will not be available until the late 2020s (2027+) or early 2030s.

Also, what you described here in green exists today in 2024, but is very expensive. There is a substance known as electrofuels, which is where CO2 extracted from the atmosphere gets combined with hydrogen from water using electrical processes, and turned into gasoline or e-kerosene. Though, e-fuels would make much more sense for powering planes compared to cars. The combustion of electrofuels makes CO2, but the cycle is almost carbon neutral (depending on where you get the electricity from).

Toyota's 750 mile range battery, 10 minute charge times by late-2020s?: Toyota confirms 750 mi range solid-state EV battery plans to catch up to Tesla, but when?
Electrofuels (e-kerosene for planes): How is e-kerosene developing in Europe? - Transport & Environment

FireDragon76 · May 13, 2024

AlexB23 said:
Well, shale drilling is still raping the earth, but hey, at least the waste water can be used for something. Maybe instead we can support environmentally sustainable policies, including reducing our plastic use, promoting proper recycling, invest in public transport & mixed-use urban developments, and minimize our consumption.

Electric Vehicles Are Not the Solution. Sustainable Transit Is.

In the past two years, the Biden Administration has enacted major policies to increase the adoption of electric vehicles (EVs) in the United States. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law allocates $7.5 billion to develop and improve domestic EV charging infrastructure and the Inflation Reduction Act...

chicagopolicyreview.org

Invest in bicycle lanes, mixed use zoning in cities and towns (which isn't legal in most of the country), and getting rid of mandatory parking requirements would do alot more to help the environment.

AlexB23 · May 13, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
Invest in bicycle lanes, mixed use zoning in cities and towns (which isn't legal in most of the country), and getting rid of mandatory parking requirements would do alot more to help the environment.

Agreed. We do not need Musk-mobiles to save the environment, we need better urban planning.

iluvatar5150 · May 14, 2024

Tuur said:
Just a gut feeling, but maybe there needs to be some kind of side-step, something that doesn't rely on existing tech or infrastructure. Maybe something chemical based. I have the feeling this may have already been theorized. Basically it would have to be an energy dense chemical that can be produced through electricity and can be "recharged" by simply refilling a tank and which combusts/decomposes into non-hazardous chemicals.

Isn't that what a regular lead acid battery does? Aside from the "non-hazardous" part.

FireDragon76 · May 14, 2024

iluvatar5150 said:
Isn't that what a regular lead acid battery does? Aside from the "non-hazardous" part.

Lead acid has really poor energy density. It's useful where bulk isn't a problem, but you're not going to get lead-acid bicycles or smart phones any time soon.

AlexB23 · May 14, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
Lead acid has really poor energy density. It's useful where bulk isn't a problem, but you're not going to get lead-acid bicycles or smart phones any time soon.

Agreed. There is a massive table on Wikipedia that shows energy densities (backed up with sources) for different battery types. Lead-acid is pretty weak.

Comparison of commercial battery types - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lukaris · May 15, 2024

Good discussion. I have been reading everyone’s posts and just pondering on the topic.

AlexB23 · May 15, 2024

Lukaris said:
Good discussion. I have been reading everyone’s posts and just pondering on the topic.

Hey, thank you.

Lukaris · May 16, 2024

It seems like operations that produce this wastewater will be ongoing for a long time. It also seems that only a few places are needed to extract the amount of lithium needed.

If what I am saying is sensible then shale production should not expand, start to decline and a necessary portion of lithium be extracted from wastewater of limited sites. The need for more lithium mines should be unnecessary or extremely limited.

This should not be considered a permanent solution but a balance of environmental & economic issues in an ongoing transition. I don’t think I am disagreeing with any posts here.

It seems that many feel that EVs are of limited benefit. This may be true but they also seem inevitable ( not that I necessarily endorse this). My opinion is that whatever happens, limiting lithium mining is most crucial in obtaining whatever benefits can be obtained.

The current situation is this:

Because the US Geological survey has classified lithium as a critical mineral (technically an element), the government wants all lithium produced domestically by 2030. In terms of resource allocation, that would be an improvement over the current method which consists of extracting it from brine ponds in Chile, shipping it to China to be processed, and shipping it back to the States for use.

40% of US lithium needs could come from unlikely source in Pennsylvania

Thanks to the increase of electric vehicles and other battery-using technologies, the demand for lithium is expected to skyrocket in the coming years. One odd but potent source of the metal is a Pennsylvania wastewater stream, says a new study.

newatlas.com

AlexB23 · May 16, 2024

Lukaris said:
It seems like operations that produce this wastewater will be ongoing for a long time. It also seems that only a few places are needed to extract the amount of lithium needed.

If what I am saying is sensible then shale production should not expand, start to decline and a necessary portion of lithium be extracted from wastewater of limited sites. The need for more lithium mines should be unnecessary or extremely limited.

This should not be considered a permanent solution but a balance of environmental & economic issues in an ongoing transition. I don’t think I am disagreeing with any posts here.

It seems that many feel that EVs are of limited benefit. This may be true but they also seem inevitable ( not that I necessarily endorse this). My opinion is that whatever happens, limiting lithium mining is most crucial in obtaining whatever benefits can be obtained.

The current situation is this:

Because the US Geological survey has classified lithium as a critical mineral (technically an element), the government wants all lithium produced domestically by 2030. In terms of resource allocation, that would be an improvement over the current method which consists of extracting it from brine ponds in Chile, shipping it to China to be processed, and shipping it back to the States for use.

40% of US lithium needs could come from unlikely source in Pennsylvania

Thanks to the increase of electric vehicles and other battery-using technologies, the demand for lithium is expected to skyrocket in the coming years. One odd but potent source of the metal is a Pennsylvania wastewater stream, says a new study.

newatlas.com

We will have to wait and see what happens until 2030, but it is only 4.5 years away. We need more public transit, my brother, as stated in the article in my previous post. But yes, domestic lithium is better compared to relying on the Chinese, as tensions have gone up.

From 2018-2023 (as article was written in January 2024), US-Chinese tensions increased: U.S.-China Relations in 2024: Managing Competition without Conflict

Lukaris · May 16, 2024

AlexB23 said:
We will have to wait and see what happens until 2030, but it is only 4.5 years away. We need more public transit, my brother, as stated in the article in my previous post. But yes, domestic lithium is better compared to relying on the Chinese, as tensions have gone up.

From 2018-2023 (as article was written in January 2024), US-Chinese tensions increased: U.S.-China Relations in 2024: Managing Competition without Conflict

I definitely agree developments need to be multitasked. I also want to mention that I may have to look closer at the geographic aspect of utilizing & limiting shale wastewater extraction. It seems that a limited geography is doable but does that guarantee it not becoming an outright wasteland?

AlexB23 · May 16, 2024

Lukaris said:
I definitely agree developments need to be multitasked. I also want to mention that I may have to look closer at the geographic aspect of utilizing & limiting shale wastewater extraction. It seems that a limited geography is doable but does that guarantee it not becoming an outright wasteland?

Well, I am not sure. The lithium age is really new, so this is uncharted territory.

Lithium battery history (open-access journal, PDF download required): Brief History of Early Lithium-Battery Development

Pennsylvania wastewater might provide 40% of US lithium needs.

Orthodox Christian

Christian

Well-Known Member

Christian

Well-Known Member

Christian

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Christian

Orthodox Christian

Christian

Orthodox Christian

Christian

Orthodox Christian

Christian

Similar threads